2009-11-16, 23:33 | Link #3341 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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2). Around 18 years, I suppose. I thought the Sumadera family somehow was like Mafia, but they still were not. They would not risk causing "accident" unless necessary and beneficial to not killing(Kasumi desired to kill Ange mostly out of personal issue, not rational reason. Her family ordered her to capture Ange but not to murder her on Rokkenjima). And in fact, what would Rudolf and other family think if Kyrie got into the Ushiromiya family because Asumu opportunely got an "accident" or died? This would pose enormous obstacle for the plan if Kyrie did not get into the family naturally enough. I thought the Sumadera family just gave up on the plan after seeing that Kyrie's son just die while Asumu's son survived on the same day. Kyrie revived the plan after Asumu died and Rudolf proposed to Kyrie. In fact, all the murders were planned by Kyrie but not Sumadera family. 3). A run-away Kyrie would pose less suspicion over the connection between Sumadera family and the Rokkenjima massacre. 4). This question was not specific to Kyrie=Beatrice alone. Anyone who was creative enough could use the epigraph to hide the identity of the culprit as witch. In fact, a deeper question was why doing so hard to make the whole thing as witch's doing? My hypothesis was that part of the reason was Maria thought Beatrice was a witch, second reason was emotional because I proposed that Kyrie's mother was Beatrice, and the third reason was to discourage the people from looking for the culprit but to focus on the epigraph. 5. This is a hard question. Kyrie decided who to be killed at the first twilight depending on how the siblings were doing during the "discussion". If they showed no inclination to solve the epigraph at all, then Kyrie was willing to kill them. If they showed real inclination (as in EP3, also in EP2 I think, until Rosa somehow accidentally killing every adult in the chapel), then she did not pick them but pick the other people (the servants). She killed the people she deemed as hopelessly unwilling to mend the fences and leave the people with possibility to solve the epigraph. From the beginning, she knew that there was almost a miracle that the family could mend their fence and solve the epigraph, so from her perspective she was merely giving a last chance to them. If she did not kill some people, others could have little reason to take Beatrice's letter serious at all. After all, the whole family were to die in the final disaster if no one solved the epigraph. Quote:
I am getting tired of defending my hypothesis. I want to hear some new ideas on the whole background of the game and Beatrice's motive instead. ------------------------------------------- Concerning the EP5 discussion, do you think that Lambda's intention was really to detain Bern? Bern and Lambda took hold of the gameboard and Bern used Erika to solve the whole game. She was even bidding goodbye to Lambda before Battler's resurrect. If detaining Bern indefinitely was her real intention, shouldn't she do something else other than to see Erika "solving" the mystery? Or in fact the resurrect of Battler was her trick to detain Bern by making the game draw again? In EP5, it was almost certain that there was no absolute reliable narrator (from all your discussions), because the gameboard was played not by Beatrice and Battler but by Lambda and Bern. Was the gameboard the same one as in EP1-4? Or a total different one with different rules and starting conditions? (an additional piece was added to the gameboard, namely Erika) If that gameboard was a new one, then Battler taking as GM because he has understood the whole game could only apply to EP5 alone. If it was the same gameboard as in EP1-4, then it meant he had solved all mysteries actually. How could he do so in a sudden was still a mystery to me? (The omniscient God, Ryukishi07, revealed the truth to Battler?) My impression is that Erika showed that solutions exist for involving human only for the game, but her solution was not the truth (the intended one). So starting from EP6, Battler would try to locate the intended solution. Successfully finding it in EP7. And prevent the whole massacre from happening in EP8. Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-17 at 00:05. |
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2009-11-16, 23:51 | Link #3342 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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What about the phone call Battler received from Beatrice in episode 4: Spoiler for Phone Call:
It seems as though whoever Battler talked to on the phone knew they were 'on the board during the game'. In Higurashi, Rika could interact with Hanyuu while Rika is in the real world. It was stated early on that Rika can speak to 'Oyashiro'. It was stated early on that Kanon, Shannon, and Maria can speak to 'Beatrice'. Kanon and Shannon even commented once how it was rare for both of them to survive the first twilight, even though it was a magic scene. Maria is never surprised when the murders start happening. The meta world must exist. There cannot be a complete real world solution for Umineko no naku koro ni. The end solution will probably be similar to Higurashi's end solution with real world and meta world elements. And finally, the real world "Beatrice" on the game board is able to communicate with Beatrice in the meta world during the game. This is shown near the end of episode 4. That said, episode 5 clearly shows that the "magic world" is fake.
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2009-11-17, 00:02 | Link #3343 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Well that's messed up. How exactly do you call the ability to jump from the real world to another world? Or the ability to know what happens in other worlds?
If it doesn't have a rational explanation it's called magic.
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2009-11-17, 02:59 | Link #3345 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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On the other hand, since Natsuhi is alive and we saw her POV in the closet, that wouldn't be consistent with the "lies can only be presented by collaborating observers" theory. So lately, I've started to think that Hideyoshi wasn't dead in the first place. Instead, what Natsuhi heard from the closet was an act for her and possibly Eva's benefit. This would explain why Hideyoshi just happened to come into the room Natsuhi was hiding in and how he "died" even though the supposed killer couldn't have escaped a search of the room. There's not even a reason to believe he was staked, since by the time Erika arrived on the scene, the stake had already (apparently) been pulled out by Eva, and Erika very loudly announced that she didn't care about the body and wasn't going to examine it. |
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2009-11-17, 03:07 | Link #3346 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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That is rather inconsistent with the title "detective" that's been hung on Erika...combined with the other stuff she does that seems rather complete (lie or not) in keeping all the rooms secured.
Come to think of it, can anyone confirm that anyone actually died in Ep5? If the bodies of the First Twilight are missing before being seen by Natsuhi (I can't recall of Erika observed the six bodies) and Hideyoshi's body isn't examined...did anyone really die?
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2009-11-17, 03:21 | Link #3347 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Thanks to the trial and Virgilia's talk with Beato, we know that:
All of the first twilight victims are dead. George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, and Genji were dead as of roughly 12:30pm. Krauss died immediately after Natsuhi heard him on the phone (presumably around 7:00am). Erika didn't observe any of the guesthouse bodies at all, since they'd already been covered up with blankets by the time she arrived, but I'm not sure whether she saw Genji's or not. Somehow she found out that Genji's master key was missing, but that might just have been what she was told by Kanon and Kumasawa. There wasn't any scene of her inspecting the waiting room. It's a nuisance, but there's nothing saying that Rosa and the cousins were actually in the guesthouse when Erika searched the cousins' room. They could have been killed during the night or something. On the other hand, since the door was locked after the bodies were found but was open later, we can at least suppose that someone opened it from the inside. Last edited by LyricalAura; 2009-11-17 at 03:33. |
2009-11-17, 08:10 | Link #3348 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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You mean that Erika didn't check the bodies? How can someone be so anal to place dozens of tapes around a house before the crime actually happened and then not checking the corpses with her own eyes?
We might have no red to confirm it, but this goes beyond any acceptable logic. I'd rather think the whole scene was fake.
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2009-11-17, 15:35 | Link #3349 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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She's not a detective... that's her position on the game board, but not in reality. She's more likely a con artist. |
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2009-11-17, 16:55 | Link #3350 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: a better place than here
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It's the easiest way for her to gain sympathy points. |
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2009-11-17, 17:08 | Link #3351 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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If this series introduces any more goddamn Higurashi characters (other than maybe a certain "Magician of Words", who, given his title, would definitely fit in this setting) I will be very, very upset.
Besides, Erika acts nothing like Rika. Nothing. I doubt that's even her real name... Why does she even need sympathy points? Her humiliation at Bern's hands is more than enough, and she's an effective villain as of now. Umineko needs unsympathetic villains, characters we can hate, now that Beato is all Neutral Good. |
2009-11-17, 17:24 | Link #3352 |
French Maid
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Poitiers; France
Age: 31
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If Erika was just an evil character, I would be disappointed.
That is why I didn't liked the fact that it is said that she was just thrown in the game, without past nor future. I mean, it is pretty manichean, and it is not Ryukishi's type to give us (a) character(s) which we can make carry all our hatred. Even the great bad guy in Higurashi, 34 was not like this, she had a past, a understandable reason which leads her to madness/"bad guy"ness. Okonogi was a military guy who follows the orders he is given and know when to stop. The only real bad guys we can found are Tokyo, but they were minor characters, not even develloped. I really hope that we can get more about the real Erika, and maybe about 34 and Bernkastel, but for this one I think they can be a good reason for her to act so evilish with Battler. I expect that his position as Game Master will clarify a thing or two... |
2009-11-17, 17:30 | Link #3353 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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2009-11-17, 17:35 | Link #3354 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=849 You can search for "seal" to make it faster, you'll notice there are a lot, and some of them are mentioned by Dlanor herself. Though they do not tell how many seals were actually placed, the most relevant are confirmed. Anyway I myself would strongly doubt the existence of these seals if it wasn't for those red truths. Quote:
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2009-11-17, 17:51 | Link #3355 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Geh, I know the doors are sealed, but was it ever confirmed she sealed the windows from OUTSIDE? Because that should be impossible. |
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2009-11-17, 17:58 | Link #3356 |
French Maid
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Poitiers; France
Age: 31
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I disagree with this, Ryukishi is always the one who create the plot^^
Moreover, the meta-world isn't supposed to exist. Without that, all we got is just a young girl who plays detective. For me it is not very consistent, she is below all the over character at this state. I expect more from the future Ep, unless that I would be really disappointed by this character.... |
2009-11-17, 18:06 | Link #3357 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Er...
The meta-world does exist, just on a conceptual rather than real level. However, it has no effect on the murders. That's kind of the point. She doesn't make any sense. She's contradictory, inconsistent. She's a hijack of the game. |
2009-11-17, 18:17 | Link #3359 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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It's literally like saying "If the detective could not find chocolate in a convenience store then chocolate simply doesn't exist" or something similar to that degree |
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2009-11-17, 18:21 | Link #3360 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Furthermore, Dlanor's red only works if Erika is actively looking for secret passages. Invasion Entrance X can exist so long as the detective does not look for it, which Battler NEVER did in previous Eps. |
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