The General Discussion of Haruhi Suzumiya

[Vexx]

First, I'll agree with Jinsoo about the basic premise of preferring "short and brilliant" against "long and jumped the shark or shallow".

On the accessibility to non-japanese audiences: The gut aspects of the show are straight physics, metaphysics, sci-fi --- nothing "eastern" there outside of the parallels between quantum physics and eastern philosophy. The dressing of the show is japanese: school, holidays, etc.. and a lot of the minor stuff (hairbows, cultural festival) .. but none of those are *alien* to US or EU audiences. They know its set in Japan, that they wear school uniforms (like many schools elsewhere), that different countries have their own holidays (just substitute "spring break" for Golden Week). Americans know Harry Potter is set in England so they deal with the cultural uniqueness (though most of them completely miss the connection of accent to class status).

So they'll miss the little things.... more likely American complaints would center around "why is it taking so long for Kyon to move on one of the girls" - standard American short attention span and lack of training to deal with plots that don't go boom every five seconds. My exposure to European fare is limited to BBC fare where plots require attention span (even the comedy series) but I don't know if that is typical there.

[Aiya Kasai]

WHA!? This anime is barely known! How is it like Naruto?!?!?!

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard....you can't even look this anime up on google. Younger people can like this too..I am 17...and that's kinda young....and I love this anime. It's light and let's you ease up accept for being depressed or too into action. This anime is way more layed back and that's why i love it.

Plus the writing is awesome...the writer is very good and being able to dragging an audience in and capturing them. He puts various clues among episodes....and makes it based on realistic stats which I find very interesting. He makes the magic and unlogical story more realistic and welcoming by having it present through out the whole anime and even before the anime has started....they planned it out before they made the anime...and didn't start winging it like ALOT of shonnens.

Except for it being like a fighting anime and the character always having to fight a guy who is stronger than the last one....these character stay who they are...and the nature of this strange god named Haruhi belongs with the atmosphere. She doesn't change along with her powers based on something new and added in....she is apart of everything around her like Kyon and the rest of them. The anime is whole.

Sorry if you guys don't understand that...I know what I mean because I do the same things to my story as this anime...lol

and to Vexx....I am american and I do not have a short attention span, thank-you very-much

I think the anime should have another series and that's it. It's nice that its short..but you can really add alot in the second episode(edit: I mean season...>_<). Explain more things...have more funny episodes...and more romance.

[Vexx]

Heh.. I'm American too... and I'm surrounded by Americans... and I declare most of them don't have the attention span to get out of a paper bag.

The fact you were able to register, post here, and write in complete sentences with fair grammar already puts you in the minority

I'm exposed to a lot of people in my business and teaching activities ... over exposure is not always a good thing. I want it clear I don't think there's anything *inherently* wrong with the people --- just incredibly poorly raised. I think *any* of my fellow citizens can comprehend calculus, the writings of Plato, critically analyze Shakespeare, or how to read a circuit schematic - they just had the urge to learn beaten to a pulp when young.

Trying desperately to pull this back on-topic: I think Haruhi would do well as a PBS offering (Japanese Masterpiece Theater) but would tank on FOX. There's plenty of material for a second season as in "the further adventures of".... but I'm not sure I'd really want it UNLESS we continued to see progression (or even ups and downs) of the relationships of the group. The series MASH kept re-inventing itself with new explorations of how the people were bonded to each other but eventually (probably a season late) called it a done show. One of the things that attracted me to japanese anime was that complete stories were told, lives changed, and it wasn't always for the better. The best way for a series to drive me off are the "fight of the week" or the "monster of the week" or the "none of the relationships really change" syndromes.

[Noppapana]

i dont think that the novel serie will lose interest of the fan audience
I have read some chapters of some novels (thanks to Baka-tsuki) i must the whole story is pretty good and interesting. if the author keeps this way i think there will many novels to come

however if they stretched out the serie then there will be chance that it will fall
however the animation isnt cheap either, so a short serie will fit it
of course i hope there will be second season ... not because i want to see SOS dan crew (especially Haruhi) <<- ignore this
but there are a lot of questions unanswered like Shamisen

well thats how i look at it

[Shirobane]

Originally Posted by Anime Online

Good animes should cross cultural, geographical and language barriers, and be enjoyed by all.

Just a note onto this; Slapstick humor crosses all types of territorial boundaries but it doesn't necessarily make a show good. It just means that the show is universal.

Example: Pokemon traversed the ocean to North America. The show isn't very deep or an innovation in annimation or plot design, yet the show is (was) very popular.

Originally Posted by Jinsoo

I think it'll get even more overrated than it already is if it comes to the States. Cos everytime something labeled awesome in Japan comes to the States, it just turns out painfully bad or fans that can't even pronounce the title right, and that's no good. Sure, it's animation is awesome, but well constructed? It's like a puzzle and you need to rewatch them in a certain order once it's done. It'd be better off being less confusing if it just went in order IMO. Plus, I don't think there'd be so much haters of this show if they didn't toss in Ep 0.

I brought this anime to one of my school's anime club meetings once. Only 2 actually liked it out of the 15 that was there >_>; Everyone was begging me to switch it to something more entertaining. And I'm not one of the two just to let you know. It's hard to like an anime that starts on the wrong foot like MoSH did. Not a lot of people got that it was a student film by the characters, but either way, I don't think they should've opened the series with that. It's basically a big turn off for most people if put in the very beginning.

http://anime.miao.us/archives/2006/06/05/769/

Your argument is very contradictory and disjointed. First you compare bringing SHaruhi over to NA would bring upon a phenomenon that rivals Naruto, then you make a 180 and say it wouldn't be popular here. Hmm....

You still compare SHaruhi to a simple comedy. Just because a show has comedic elements, it doesn't make the show a straight up comedy. The Da Vinci Code had penis jokes, and to my knowledge, the book/movie was not a comedy. If we were to steoreotype SHaruhi so superficially, it'd be a sci-fi, slice of life, comedic, sports, romance, drama, music video, mystery show with critiques and critical analysis of oontology, the anthropic principle, reality, the meaning of happiness, and the critique of amateur videos presented with top quality animation and a sarcastic yet blunt narrorator about an abrasive and determined girl and her band of merry friends that consist of aliens, time travellers and ESPers. (I feel so bad for anyone who has to read the precedent aloud...) off the top of my head. Quite simply it is a show with many layers that simply cannot be explored within a single episode viewing, not to mention the fact that 15 people is hardly a creditable population in a statistic.

In my opinion, Kyoani made a bold move animating a novel that has an abrasive lead. Note that Kyoani has done mainstream works before (FMP anyone?) and animations based off critically acclaimed works such as AIR. They have experience
in targetting audience and knew full well that a super abrasive character such as Suzumiya Haruhi won't sell as well as a generic lead. And yet the popularity of SHaruhi still exploded due to their mastery of animation and their dedication to original works. Kyoani dared to innovate where others would be happy staying in the status quo. In simpler terms, while SHaruhi may not be the funniest thing on earth, it's animation and storytelling shines brighter than any other show this season if not the last few years. Whereas Ouran High School Host Club is ground-poundingly funny at times, it rarely -if ever- innovates anything.

Frankly, out of all the criticisms of SHaruhi I've seen, I haven't once encountered one that has some notion of deep thought put into it...except sometimes with Kaioshin-sama who's a hot-head and is inexplicably after my blood...(I'm joking of course)


Really, what is the joy in trolling boards to get a rise out of the inhabitants? Can someone explain that to me?

Edit: I speel guud...minor diction maintenance, can't do much about that run-on sentence though...my head hurts.

[Major Kerina]

Originally Posted by Shirobane

it'd be a sci-fi, slice of life, comedic, sports, romance, drama, music video mystery show with critiques and critical analysis of oontology, the anthropic principle, reality, the meaning of happiness, and the critique of amateur videos presented with top quality animation and a sarcastic yet blunt narrorator about an abrasive and determined girl and her band of merry friends that consist of aliens, time travellers and ESPers. (I feel so bad for anyone who has to read the precedent aloud...) off the top of my head.

Woot! ^^ That's gonna inspire my new pitch for the show to friends (as soon as I look up oontology). I've converted 5 to Haruhiism already. I guess that means I'm bumped up a bit from Kyon like Itsuki was in the Brigade *glee*

One thing I've been conflicted with is what order to tell people to watch it in. Episode One can kinda turn people off because it's so peculiar but you have no hint as to something peculiar going on in episode 2. Then there's episode four's frustrating and perplexing placement. I know, I know. Intentional. But it's fun to preserve the mystery of the show as long as possible.

I've mostly told people, watch episode 1 if you want to see a bad student film with the characters and get a hint as to the oddity to proceed but don't expect to understand it with one viewing. But episode 4 is still really really perplexing.

Even if you do watch them in order I still recommend people watch episode 5 before 4. I still don't get all the subtle things that happen in 4.

And then there's watching it in chronological order...all in all I have no definitive answer. I mean I can see thematically how things fit well together. But it's tough to say one viewing is better than another, this show just plain needs multiple viewings.

[LCeh]

I would say, tell your friends to watch episode 1 and 2, and in that order, before making any judgements on the series. As you said, episode 1 might turn some people off, but it shouldn't after episode 2. Plus, this would be like a little test, there are those that get it, and there are those that don't.

[diopter]

The key to suggesting people which order to watch (let's just say Haruhi's order or Kyon's order) depends on the person you are suggesting to. If the person trusts you enough to stick long enough watching the anime past 3 episodes, I'd say watch it as KyoAni presents it. But if the person has zero tolerance and/or short attention-span, chronological order is probably the better way to go.

Personally, I think watching it out of chronological order makes everything much, much more interesting. Because you are watching it out of order, you're most likely not keen to all the minor details on the first watching. An example, I was rewatching the baseball tournament episode, and I had just realized Yuki wasn't wearing her glasses (how the heck did I miss that the first time!?! I have dishonored my fellow Haruhi-ists ). So to me, it feels like every time I watch the same episode, I find something new, something else that is interesting. It makes the replay button a lot more enjoyable; if I can make the analogy, it'd be kind of like a game with multi-ending scenarios with something new and different each time.

[Major Kerina]

They really trust me but I just want to preserve the revelations in episode 5 as much as possible for them. Probably inordinantly so because I had them spoiled for me. Didn't ruin my enjoyment of the show a lick (I did watch 5 before 4 though and that really helped, it's the only episode I can't really make much of a case for watching in airing order).

I gotta admitt, this show could be a pain in the butt for its eventual licensor depending on the company. I'm hoping for a dedicated licensor, one who includes copious translation notes and an SOS-Brigade arm-band wouldn't hurt either.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Okay I've got ask, am I the only person on the form that holds the Haruhi Might Not Be God theory. I mean there has yet to be anything to prove it absolutely other than Hearsay and yet everybody already seems pretty decided that this is her universe and she has absolute control. If anybody else hear is holding off on the idea that Haruhi is god and is waiting for real proof, than don't be afraid to speak up, I'd like to here your theory. If I may draw a Star Trek comparison Q could do the exact same things as Haruhi only much better and more efficiently but nobody felt he was god (especially Sisko who actually punched him square in the face), but rather a powerful entity who even got his powers taken away (Maybe it could even happen to Haruhi).

There's so much yet to be proven and so many questions to be raised and possibly never answered, so why have the folks here decided to elevate Haruhi to god (complex?) status already? Wow that was long winded and repetitive sorry everybody. Basically why listen too Itsuki the guy who started the God Theory in the first place back in Volume 1 Chapter 3, he's constantly screwing with peoples heads and playing tricks, I don't believe him for a second, out of all the explanations, Yuki's temporal anomaly or time basically messing up 3 years ago granting people special powers (maybe Haruhi too)

Spoiler:

This is actually explained kind of in one of the chapters I believe

theory seems the most probable, still doesn't mean its true. Anyway if Japanese storytelling has taught me anything, there's almost always one dude higher up in the shadows manipulating all the events.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama

There's so much yet to be proven and so many questions to be raised and possibly never answered, so why have the folks here decided to elevate Haruhi to god (complex?) status already? Wow that was long winded and repetitive sorry everybody. Basically why listen too Itsuki the guy who started the God Theory in the first place back in Volume 1 Chapter 3, he's constantly screwing with peoples heads and playing tricks, I don't believe him for a second, out of all the explanations, Yuki's temporal anomaly or time basically messing up 3 years ago granting people special powers (maybe Haruhi too)

Spoiler:

This is actually explained kind of in one of the chapters I believe

theory seems the most probable, still doesn't mean its true. Anyway if Japanese storytelling has taught me anything, there's almost always one dude higher up in the shadows manipulating all the events.

Yuki said that Haruhi can create data from scratch, which is something even the Data Entity can't do. How could Yuki grant a power that is way beyond her own abilities? I don't think is posible.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Yuki said that Haruhi can create data from scratch, which is something even the Data Entity can't do. How could Yuki grant a power that is way beyond her own abilities? I don't think is posible.

I never once said Yuki granted her THE POWER (sorry Gaogaigar reference), your just following your own version of events based on what has been beaten into you on this forum. Pay attention to the signs given in the novels specifically since they are much more detailed than the series which tends to focus on the more sensational and outrageous aspects of the chapters than the dialogue and theory. You'll see many divergent explanations as to what is happening in the Haruhi meta-series, that might never really answered (Most series like this never give all the answers, that way they can continue to be discussed pretty much forever).

Data from scratch eh, wonder if she can alter existing data, maybe thats the limit on her power and why she can't mold people or things into exactly what she wants them to be. Being able to make thing from scratch doesn't mean god, its pretty much been proven that she is mortal (persparation, signs of fatigue and she can feel pain). Also I swear to god anytime weird stuff happens concerning her Kyon is within inches of her physically, I swear she needs him to be near her to create data. Anyway all I'm saying is there is a huge difference between being able to create temporal anomalies and being omnipotent, and for all we know its Kyon or the both of them in combination doing it because he's always there when stuff goes down.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama

Okay I've got ask, am I the only person on the form that holds the Haruhi Might Not Be God theory. I mean there has yet to be anything to prove it absolutely other than Hearsay and yet everybody already seems pretty decided that this is her universe and she has absolute control. If anybody else hear is holding off on the idea that Haruhi is god and is waiting for real proof, than don't be afraid to speak up, I'd like to here your theory. If I may draw a Star Trek comparison Q could do the exact same things as Haruhi only much better and more efficiently but nobody felt he was god (especially Sisko who actually punched him square in the face), but rather a powerful entity who even got his powers taken away (Maybe it could even happen to Haruhi).

There's so much yet to be proven and so many questions to be raised and possibly never answered, so why have the folks here decided to elevate Haruhi to god (complex?) status already? Wow that was long winded and repetitive sorry everybody. Basically why listen too Itsuki the guy who started the God Theory in the first place back in Volume 1 Chapter 3, he's constantly screwing with peoples heads and playing tricks, I don't believe him for a second, out of all the explanations, Yuki's temporal anomaly or time basically messing up 3 years ago granting people special powers (maybe Haruhi too)

Spoiler:

This is actually explained kind of in one of the chapters I believe

theory seems the most probable, still doesn't mean its true. Anyway if Japanese storytelling has taught me anything, there's almost always one dude higher up in the shadows manipulating all the events.

Kind of depends on how you define "god" ... for all intents and purposes "Q" was a god -- able to alter reality, matter, energy, space, time.
Yuki would be a god to almost any collection of people on Earth. Itsuki could pass as a god in closed space. The Data Entity of which Yuki is a part might as well be god(s).

As Spock is fond of saying, "A difference which makes no difference *is* no difference."

Now if you mean The Creator of All Space and Time .... well thats a faith question - Itsuki's people have their viewpoint.

Personally, I'm with the Yuki faction - Haruhi represents a next step in evolution, not only manipulation of existing datafields but slurping new datafield out of nothing (ZPE fun). But as others have said, each faction is seeing one facet of the jewel that is Haruhi -- they may ALL be correct in their own way.

I like your idea that Kyon is somehow necessary and key to her ability (yo ghostbusters, gatekeeper, meet keymaster) and that it also stems from that event which we don't speak of outside of spoilers.

[dkellis]

I think the question of whether Haruhi is God or not is getting hung up on the definition of "God".

Basically, Haruhi's abilities are (currently) defined as such-and-such, let's say Power X. Now, someone might say that God has Power X, and anyone who has Power X is akin to God, and someone akin to God is basically God. If so, then Haruhi is God.

Someone else might say that God is not just Power X, but also Power Y and Power Z and Power Sigma and more, in which case Haruhi is not God, but simply a powerful being. Or even a being with power, which is distinct from "powerful being".

So whether Haruhi is (akin to) God or not depends on what you think God is.

Personally, I don't really know whether Haruhi is God, because I don't know what God is like. We may as well argue about whether Zeus is God, or Thor is God, or Odin is God, or Set is God, so on and so forth.

[CrowKenobi]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama

Also I swear to god anytime weird stuff happens concerning her Kyon is within inches of her physically, I swear she needs him to be near her to create data. Anyway all I'm saying is there is a huge difference between being able to create temporal anomalies and being omnipotent, and for all we know its Kyon or the both of them in combination doing it because he's always there when stuff goes down.

I need to borrow Onizuka's sig for a moment......thank you.


Which fits to what Mikuru, Itsuki, and Yuki have been saying: Kyon is the "key" to Haruhi. Or Keymaster, if you prefer.

Itsuki's line from a.f.k.'s sub of ep 1
...And that key itself is unable to affect anything. The key is merely the means to open the door. When the door is opened, something will change. Most likely, what will change...

[Shirobane]

Originally Posted by dkellis

I think the question of whether Haruhi is God or not is getting hung up on the definition of "God".

Basically, Haruhi's abilities are (currently) defined as such-and-such, let's say Power X. Now, someone might say that God has Power X, and anyone who has Power X is akin to God, and someone akin to God is basically God. If so, then Haruhi is God.

Someone else might say that God is not just Power X, but also Power Y and Power Z and Power Sigma and more, in which case Haruhi is not God, but simply a powerful being. Or even a being with power, which is distinct from "powerful being".

So whether Haruhi is (akin to) God or not depends on what you think God is.

Personally, I don't really know whether Haruhi is God, because I don't know what God is like. We may as well argue about whether Zeus is God, or Thor is God, or Odin is God, or Set is God, so on and so forth.

Exactly. A deity is simply an object of worship plain and simple. Somewhere along the evolution of man, someone thought that their god could kick someone else's god's ass 'cause (s)he could _______________, thus introducing the idea that gods cannot possibly be mortal. Of course petty disagreements like that ended up extinguishing many lives, but hey, as long as the winning party's god is superior right?

In context however,

Spoiler:

It's simply because she can (unknowingly) create matter (or information in Yuki's case) out of nothing. Of course it means nothing unless we assume that the universe is a closed system, where the amount of matter/information never changes. So in this case, Haruhi does something scientifically impossible by introducing new matter/information into a closed system. It is something that not only mortals cannot perform but other character that we've been exposed to can't do. Showing due uniqueness and non-mortal abilities, we could conclude that Haruhi = God.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by dkellis

I think the question of whether Haruhi is God or not is getting hung up on the definition of "God".

Basically, Haruhi's abilities are (currently) defined as such-and-such, let's say Power X. Now, someone might say that God has Power X, and anyone who has Power X is akin to God, and someone akin to God is basically God. If so, then Haruhi is God.

Someone else might say that God is not just Power X, but also Power Y and Power Z and Power Sigma and more, in which case Haruhi is not God, but simply a powerful being. Or even a being with power, which is distinct from "powerful being".

So whether Haruhi is (akin to) God or not depends on what you think God is.

Personally, I don't really know whether Haruhi is God, because I don't know what God is like. We may as well argue about whether Zeus is God, or Thor is God, or Odin is God, or Set is God, so on and so forth.

You see that's called "Begging The Question", both you and Shirobane. Basically you expect someone to believe your conclusion without first believing the basis on which it is founded or essentially the question being answered. Also who says mortals can't create new information, I've seen tons of other series where normal people can access the Akashic Record given the right tools and rewrite it (Cybuster, Full Metal Panic, Slayers, Space Runaway Ideon, I Could Go On) , and guess what, its fairly hit and miss and in often cases random like with Haruhi.

[Shirobane]

If we're going to dive into my beliefs, then I'm an athiest by choice. One of the joys of atheism is that I can believe in a higher power without necessarily believing in a god.

Haruhiism is an idea, basically started by a bunch of people who enjoyed the show. No one really knows what it stands for, but all members have some interpretation. My interpertation of it is the way of living life with full energy and determination of Oharuhi-sama. I believe in Haruhi as a deity in the simplest terms, a figure of worship (hell she's not even real). I could care less if she's a god in whatever conventional terms, she is a figure that represents infinite energy and determination to me.

For some reason you've seem to have combined two unrelated things (an idea proposed by Itsuki in the novel and a fan-made idea of Haruhiism) into the same argument in your quest to defamate Haruhi's godliness which is only really supported by the Itsuki camp. (a bit off topic but by last count how many people liked Itsuki?)

I hope that clears some of the confusion up. For the record I don't back any camp, I just enjoy the show. Haruhi (in all her epic Tsun-) is a breath of fresh air in a market rife with generic characters.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Shirobane

If we're going to dive into my beliefs, then I'm an athiest by choice. One of the joys of atheism is that I can believe in a higher power without necessarily believing in a god.

Haruhiism is an idea, basically started by a bunch of people who enjoyed the show. No one really knows what it stands for, but all members have some interpretation. My interpertation of it is the way of living life with full energy and determination of Oharuhi-sama. I believe in Haruhi as a deity in the simplest terms, a figure of worship (hell she's not even real). I could care less if she's a god in whatever conventional terms, she is a figure that represents infinite energy and determination to me.

For some reason you've seem to have combined two unrelated things (an idea proposed by Itsuki in the novel and a fan-made idea of Haruhiism) into the same argument in your quest to defamate Haruhi's godliness which is only really supported by the Itsuki camp. (a bit off topic but by last count how many people liked Itsuki?)

I hope that clears some of the confusion up. For the record I don't back any camp, I just enjoy the show. Haruhi (in all her epic Tsun-) is a breath of fresh air in a market rife with generic characters.

I'm going to offer you a piece of advice here. Once this show is done, don't stand around waiting for a second season. If you're tired of the generic characters of today take a step back and watch a show from the 80's. This is why I don't find Haruhi's character terribly special (well in contrast to today's shows she definetly is), because I've seen some incredible stuff from the early 80's and 90's the stuff that nobody pays any attention too and hence why people are drawn to this series in droves because there's not much else on (Not that it doesn't have its merits). Might I recommend Legend of The Galactic Heroes, or Kimagure Orange Road.

Also when you have half the board running around alternating between referring to Haruhi as God rather than Godly (source of inspiration, Haruhism Whatever), its very easy to confuse the Itsuki camp and Haruhist thing that will more than likely last about 2 more weeks until the series ends and there's nothing left to talk about, then the next big show will come out and a new trend will overtake Haruhism. I do hope there is a second season at some point though because I'm quite enjoying the show.

[Shirobane]

I know of some achievements from anime's first golden age, I'm simply in the market for uniqueness. I grab all the 'different' anime of each season first then whatever slots are left I throw in some comedy filler. Someday I'll work my way all the way back to the 70s, but right now I'm still having a hell of a time with this show.