Fansub Preference: Leader or Staff?

[pichu]

Here's my two cents... Since you're referring to companies... but I can be wrong though

(oh no, not another chart)

Company	Fansub
CEO/President1	Founder
Vice President	Co-founder
Project Manager	Project Leader
Director2	Head/Lead Staff3
Managers/Supervisors	Mixed4
Employees	Staff

¹ Some companies use CEO, and some use President; I know some companies have both--so it varies.

² Usually of a department, specific branch, or division.

³ Examples: Head Translator, Lead QC

⁴ By mixed, I mean that most fansub groups I'm aware of do not classify this far, so the leaders usually take their roles.

[getfresh]

Originally Posted by Access

"I've been subbing far longer than you..."
Really? Like first-generation groups, basically anything founded 2001? Even if I was far more active in the second-generation groups, I was there when some of these groups were founded and was at least technically a "member" (in the private channel) of a couple of them.

All of the first-generation groups I can remember, including the ones I was in, had some type of "strong" leader. The stuff I wanted to sub was either killed by the leader before it was started or refused to be released once it was done. A few of these groups were still actively producing around 2003 or so, and I think one or two might still be around to this day, though perhaps in name only.

It wasn't until the second-generation groups (mid-2001 and after) where things really opened up and the far majority of those groups had weaker leaders and an 'open' group policy where anything people were willing to work on could be done and released with the group's name attached to it. Leaders were pretty much relegated to the roles you see them in still today.

By "forcing" I would mean things you don't really see a lot of today, one person alone can't really kick another out of the group, dictate that something should be done or refuse to allow something to be done, and people aren't really beholden to single groups; a new group can come and go just like that today. Before the forums here crashed, there was a thread about a split that happened in some older group (anime-keep?) where "strong" leadership was practiced, ie. the leader tried to kick people from the group for political reasons and it ended up forcing a split in the group. That's what happens in this era.

Companies aren't removing the CEO position, no, but CEOs of large companies are swapped in and out all the time, at the request of the board. CEOs aren't ultimately the ones on top, they have to answer to the board and ultimately the stock / stockholders. By middle manager I just meant someone who tries to exercise power and delegate stuff but otherwise doesn't actually do any work. That kind of leader is long gone. It's the same sentiment that you expressed above, I think. Today a leader fills in the cracks between the typical assigned roles (translator, editor, timer, etc.) and ends up doing the stuff that no one else wants to do in order to keep things moving forward. Doesn't have much real power, except when others want them to or agree with what they are doing. In that way, they're not really any different than any other 'staff' member; except maybe that their role is undefined.

I honestly don't think we're disagree-ing any on major points...

Firstly, what groups were you in around 2001-2002?! Secondly I was there for a-keeps split watching it first hand, and whatever thread this was seems to have 1/10th the info on the internal dispute the actually happened. Also assuming that it is this era that's groups split is another lack of knowledge on your part considering the same thing happened with BakaMX with it spliting into L-E and Soldats back in the "first gen"...

[Access]

Originally Posted by getfresh

Firstly, what groups were you in around 2001-2002?! Secondly I was there for a-keeps split watching it first hand, and whatever thread this was seems to have 1/10th the info on the internal dispute the actually happened. Also assuming that it is this era that's groups split is another lack of knowledge on your part considering the same thing happened with BakaMX with it spliting into L-E and Soldats back in the "first gen"...

I'd consider L-E second-generation though, it's not worth arguing about. First-gen would be groups like Elite-fansubs, Animefactory, etc. Second-gen groups were mostly built from people who were unhappy with the first-gen groups, leadership, structure, or whatever. The way I remember it, around the time bakamx started to be active, these other groups started to show up. Animeco, Live-evil, etc. fall into this category.
http://forum.live-evil.org/index.php/topic,1040.0.html
This forum isn't really the place for me to elaborate any further, it's not about me, the OP was asking about leadership in general so that is what I was addressing. And live-evil should still have a "group history" posted to the public on its website, that's enough isn't it? That was written by Tofu, not me.

I do know the basics of those splits and by a-keep you were in the third-generation where BT had further changed the landscape. Look at Vincent's post, the "strong" leaders today are well aware of their own limits and what happens if power is actually abused. Staff allow these people to exist b'cos of the synergistic effect with the group (the group gets more done when they are around then when they aren't) and again I would emphasize they really can't make people do something they wouldn't otherwise do. If you're an enabler to the group, the staff won't really fight you; they'll end up doing the projects they want either way (in your group or someone else's) and everyone is pretty much happy in the end. He mentioned that his group has some "floating" staff that comes and goes as they please to work on projects. That's not too uncommon for those types of groups.

[Heibi]

Originally Posted by getfresh

Firstly, what groups were you in around 2001-2002?! Secondly I was there for a-keeps split watching it first hand, and whatever thread this was seems to have 1/10th the info on the internal dispute the actually happened. Also assuming that it is this era that's groups split is another lack of knowledge on your part considering the same thing happened with BakaMX with it spliting into L-E and Soldats back in the "first gen"...

Guess this would make groups like mine "Pre-Gen".

[getfresh]

Originally Posted by Heibi

Guess this would make groups like mine "Pre-Gen".

Na, cause you used a "Gen" ;D. Proto-Gen~

lol

[getfresh]

Originally Posted by Access

I'd consider L-E second-generation though, it's not worth arguing about. First-gen would be groups like Elite-fansubs, Animefactory, etc. Second-gen groups were mostly built from people who were unhappy with the first-gen groups, leadership, structure, or whatever. The way I remember it, around the time bakamx started to be active, these other groups started to show up. Animeco, Live-evil, etc. fall into this category.
http://forum.live-evil.org/index.php/topic,1040.0.html
This forum isn't really the place for me to elaborate any further, it's not about me, the OP was asking about leadership in general so that is what I was addressing. And live-evil should still have a "group history" posted to the public on its website, that's enough isn't it? That was written by Tofu, not me.

I do know the basics of those splits and by a-keep you were in the third-generation where BT had further changed the landscape. Look at Vincent's post, the "strong" leaders today are well aware of their own limits and what happens if power is actually abused. Staff allow these people to exist b'cos of the synergistic effect with the group (the group gets more done when they are around then when they aren't) and again I would emphasize they really can't make people do something they wouldn't otherwise do. If you're an enabler to the group, the staff won't really fight you; they'll end up doing the projects they want either way (in your group or someone else's) and everyone is pretty much happy in the end. He mentioned that his group has some "floating" staff that comes and goes as they please to work on projects. That's not too uncommon for those types of groups.

...You are failing to see the point that "strong" leaders today are the same as back then. We just have less now than before. About live-evil, I know there history very well and am friends with most of their staff as well as having worked with them many times in the past. I have head the FULL story in person more than once since it seems to come up every time tofu and I get drunk together. I didn't start at A-keep and I was never a-keep staff. I helped them from time to time. A-keep is second generation along with A-E, AFK, A-J, AonE, and a list of others. First generation digisubbing included soldats in the majority of peoples eyes. A generation is defined by a large group of new people joining fansubbing as what happened in late 2001-2002 with those groups. By the time this happened Soldats was already a main stay in the community. It was not a new generation of subbers, just a division or one group. You should talk more personally with the people who were involved in events directly instead of passing along links to stuff you googled up since it reduces the image of credibility in your statements to only have second-hand or superficial knowledge.



**sorry for the double post, I wasn't paying attention ^^;;

[zhurai-tsuki]

for me, it depends...

>_>

I'd prefer to only be leader and then just be staff for the rest, maybe freelance here and there... >_>...

(maybe more to be written later, ~_~...for elaboration, etc)

[Schneizel]

I enjoy picking up my phone at 5am and calling people and calling them a fag and leaving them messages to wake up and QC shit. Being a group leader is glorious.

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by Schneizel

I enjoy picking up my phone at 5am and calling people and calling them a fag and leaving them messages to wake up and QC shit. Being a group leader is glorious.

having worked under this person's lead for years I can confirm she is a glorious leader

also I am masochistic (as evidenced by being a yatta-using encoder and also a timer), so naturally I enjoy our glorious leader's leadership

[日本ひきこもり協会]

Originally Posted by Schneizel

I enjoy picking up my phone at 5am and calling people and calling them a fag and leaving them messages to wake up and QC shit. Being a group leader is glorious.

I can just agree with TheFluff. I have learned a lot from koda's graceful commanding skills. Not only did she manage to keep projects going in a timely manner, but she also positively influenced the group atmosphere. I think of gg as my second home and I'm very happy to have koda as our group leader. Though sometimes the QCers don't take fansubbing seriously :( Guess she has to work on the "pressure" part.

[DryFire]

I would have to agree with the two posters above. I'm too lazy to lead fansubbers, koda gets stuff done.

[Blue-kun]

The days of strong leaders who "manage" groups or people are long over, these days leaders can't really force others to do anything they wouldn't normally do, and tend to be more of a figurehead or a 'face' for the group. They're the people who end up doing the stuff that no one else really wants to do, but don't have any real power. If they try to force someone into doing something, they either end up with a dysfunctional group or all alone.

gg is the proof that you are wrong. As long as the leader isn't an asshole, people will do stuff that they wouldn't normally. For more information, see how koda turned the really manly gg staff into gay gays that are now addicted to that really cool show called Antique Bakery.

In other news, kudos to all three posters above me. She's a wonderful person and I'm really glad that she taught me how to be a srs fansubber that fansubs really srsly while still being fabulous at the same time *^_^*

[SHiN-gx]

I'm the leader of my group and I usually do all the work like typesetting, timing, encoding, distro, replying to comments, arguing with detractors and... pick a show for us to sub. It's a nice feeling to be a leader because you get to decide on what your projects' output is.

[Bot1]

apparently i enjoy getting asked to do stuff at 3 in the morning once every other month and then not doing shit for the rest of the time...

[Kokizzzle]

Originally Posted by Blue-kun

gg is the proof that you are wrong. As long as the leader isn't an asshole, people will do stuff that they wouldn't normally. For more information, see how koda turned the really manly gg staff into gay gays that are now addicted to that really cool show called Antique Bakery.

In other news, kudos to all three posters above me. She's a wonderful person and I'm really glad that she taught me how to be a srs fansubber that fansubs really srsly while still being fabulous at the same time *^_^*

Hey, don't forget Toradora either.

Gay for koda!

[Access]

Originally Posted by Blue-kun

gg is the proof that you are wrong. As long as the leader isn't an asshole, people will do stuff that they wouldn't normally. For more information, see how koda turned the really manly gg staff into gay gays that are now addicted to that really cool show called Antique Bakery.

Okay well, exceptions to every rule, if you can admit it like that you must find it enjoyable on some level, right?

[Blue-kun]

Originally Posted by Access

Okay well, exceptions to every rule, if you can admit it like that you must find it enjoyable on some level, right?

While I haven't directly worked on Gay Cakes, I suppose the whole staff did find it enjoyable, yes, mainly because koda and everyone else made the whole subbing process 'fun'.

[grunty]

I like having someone to bitchslap me and actually get things done. I'm a lazy bumm, unfortunately, so yea, hi koda. Things are fun+++ around a fangirl PMSing leader.

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by Access

Okay well, exceptions to every rule, if you can admit it like that you must find it enjoyable on some level, right?

it's true, gg enjoys being gay

[pichu]

o...kay... Why does my thread always ends up getting bashed and bashing around here ;_;
and I hate to admit, but she's a successful leader, albeit of the methodologies used.