Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[azul120]

Spoiler:

How do you know Lelouch was sent to the sun along with Damocles?
The looking upward could have been figurative in the "people going beyond the sky when they die" sense.

[GundamFan0083]

Okay, I'm gonna play devil's advocate here.
I know full well that Okouchi said Lelouch is dead in Continue#42 but that doesn't mean Sunrise cannot, or will not resurrect him in some later series.

@Tactics.
I think you need to back up a lot of the assumptions you're making with facts from the actual anime, not the side materials that were all quite vague, obtuse, and convoluted at best.

Originally Posted by Tactics

Both of them-- serve only one answer. No.

Lelouch is still a boy.
Look at how fragile he is-- and how his emotion affect his decision even to the limit called Zero Requiem.
C.C. always make a comment about how he chose his act, and she clearly stated Lelouch is a childish through her act towards him.

Look at the words carefully.
Your journey is over. You're released from this world.
Released ? If he's still alive-- why the word is released ?

Just because you think his death means release doesn't make it so.
It could easily mean that Lelouch no longer has the burden of his rebellion/Zero, and that he is now released to pursue a normal life now that everyone thinks he's dead.
Unless you've got something that specifically defined what is meant by those words, you cannot state what you think they mean as fact.
Your opinion is fine, and could be correct, but you have to prove it to state it as fact.

Lelouch choose reality.
Is implying how he view the world.
This is also implied in the opening.... Ookuchi already planned the Zero Requiem from the very beginning.

I condensed that because it was too long.
Yes Okouchi and Taniguichi both stated in the November Newtype of 2008 that they had planned Zero Requiem from the begining.
Problem with that is the execution of it left much to be desired in the minds of many, many fans.
It was a grand idea, but fell short of expectations and essentially turned Code Geass into a trainwreck (there was even a website called Code Trainwreck back in 2008-2009 dedicated to showing how it was so in detail, pity it's gone now).

If you asked, where's Lelouch body.
Watch Kiseki no Tanjoubi Picture Drama.
Even if it's a "crack" Picture Drama, at the end, Suzaku will gave you the easiest clue to discover where's Lelouch graveyard.

Lelouch body is sent to the sun together with Damocles.
Suzaku itself stated it as :

"I won't ask for your forgiveness."
"That grave is your sin."

And because of that, I understand why C.C. looks to the sky

He's died : 100 - 0

If he's alive, it'll ruined everything-- seriously

Lelouch's body went into the sun huh?
You're gonna need more than your opinions and a picture drama to back that up.
Let's see some actual proof vis a vie the director or writer comming out and stating it in an interview or the like.

Also, as to why Lelouch would have faked his death at the end of episode 25, that's easy.
He wanted to fulfill his promise to CC which was to fulfill her wish.
That is stated in episode 15 of R2 very clearly when Lelouch tells Charles, "STOP! She's my...She's my...."
She's his what? True love? Girlfriend? WHat?
Lelouch then goes on to tell Charles that he cannot take CC away from Lelouch.
Unfortunately the romantic aspects of CC and Lelouch's relationship are handicaped by the writer and the director because they have this ridiculous love quadrangle going on between Lelouch x Shirley x CC x Kallen.
However, Sunrise has already told us what they consider to be the "official" pairing via all of the official artwork.

This exchange during the end of episode 15 is important to episode 25 because we have Lelouch asking CC:
"Why didn't you attempt to die with me as your replacement?
Why didn't you attempt to push the hell that is eternal life on me?"

That bit of dialogue is very important.
Lelouch acknowledges that eternal life is hell, a punishment.
Okouchi's own Mutuality story (which he wrote himself) states that Suzaku will be punished by becoming Zero and Lelouch will be punished by Zero killing the Demon Emperor.
Thus if Zero Requiem is a punishment for Lelouch to atone for all his sins, how is dying for real going to punish him?
The answer is clear.
It isn't.
However, Okouchi went ahead and killed Lelouch anyway thus contradicting this episode's theme and major plot points.

I'll explore the major contradictions between ep 15 and ep 25 by going deeper into ep 15.

In ep 15 Lelouch declares that he'll make CC "smile."
Now, how do you suppose he's going to do that if he's dead in episode 25?
Hmmm?

What's worse about R2 as a whole is when the writer and director threw this little tid-bit at the viewers.
Lelouch as he's trying to get to CC while she's falling at the end of ep 15 R2:
"I know it CC! Your Geass , your true wish..."

That wish being to be truly loved by someone because her Geass made people love her falsely.
Allow me to show you via the anime so there's no confusion:

Thus there is a major flaw in Code Geass R2 ep 25 since Lelouch dies at the end.

The storyline started in ep 15 continued on to at least episode 23 when we have CC and Lelouch discussing the coming battle.

I'll just note that Lelouch says to CC: "For the sake of so many lives, WE cannot stop anymore. Isn't that so CC?"
We?
What part does CC play in the Zero Requiem.
Hardly any that we see in ep 25.
It's pretty much all Suzaku and Lelouch.
Heck Jeremiah has more of a part to play.
All CC does is pray for Lelouch.
Remember, at that point in episode 23 the Zero Requiem had already been decided upon.

The meaning of that exchange between CC and Lelouch in ep 23 can be taken any number of ways, however when we combine the information from ep 15, then skip to ep 25 we can get a partial idea of what is going on.
Although, it's still pretty fuzzy since we're not given clear or concise details, which is what Okouchi said in the Continue42 interview: "I think we may have told too much."

Now let's get to ep 25 itself.
The flashback with Suzaku is probably the most significant part of that episode.

Here's the youtube link:

Okay, so we've got Suzaku saying: "Are you sure you want to go through with this?"
Lelouch: "Suzaku, you shall kill me as promised."
Suzaku: "Do you absolutely want to do this?"
Lelouch: "All the hatred of the world is gathered on me as planned."
Lelouch: "Then all you have to do is erase my existence and put an end to this chain of hatred."

Okay that is the important part right there.
Dying doesn't erase someone's existence.
Existence implies knowledge of the person ever being alive period.
On top of that Okouchi has already told us in ep 15 that Lelouch considers eternal life to be a punishment and a hell.
Food for thought.

The next part doesn't make a damn bit of sense.

Lelouch: "The Black Knights will have the legend of Zero left behind for them."

That's just BS, the BK's knew Lelouch was Zero and there's no way they're going to just accept someone else. That's garbage.

Now let's move on to CC praying.
She says: "As the price for casting Geass on other people, you..."
YOU WHAT OKOUCHI!
It's those vague little bits of dialogue that lead viewers into the wrong direction since Lelouch is dead and dialogue like that implies otherwise.

Skip ahead past to Lelouch explaining Suzaku's end of the bargain.
Lelouch: "Suzaku, you will become a hero. You will become Zero, savior of the world, who rescued everyone from the enemy of the world, Emperor Lelouch vi Britainnia."

Suzaku penetrates Lelouch.
Then Lelouch says: "This is also punishment for you...you be the defender of justice and wear a mask forever...you will no longer be able to live as Suzaku Kururugi. You will sacrifice all of your own hapiness for the world...eternally.."
To which Suzaku says: "I accept...that Geass.."
What?
If it's metaphorical, then I guess it makes sense.
Otherwise, how the heck does Geass make Suzaku a defender of justice forever?
It's those little inconsistencies that really ruin the ending of this show.

Now if you go to 5:32 in the clip you'll notice that one of the first things Nunnally sees when she touches Lelouch is Charles' hand with the code on it as Lelouch is saying "Yes...I...destroy...worlds..."
Why?
What is the significance of that?
It has nothing to do with Shirley, Kallen, CC or any of the other images that Nunnally sees.
Why did Taniguichi choose to show Charles' hand with the code on it.
Why not just he and Marianne disintegrating into nothing.
That's not random, it was a decision he as the director had to make.
I wonder, was he asked to provide an "out" for Sunrise just in case they wanted to make a sequel?

For now, Lelouch is dead as fried chicken, but the future? Only Bandai knows for sure.

There, I got that rant off my chest.

[Xander]

You can list inconsistencies between episode 15 and episode 25, yet someone else could also list what is actually consistent with it. Now, I'm not in the mood to play this game anymore, but at the very least I can comment from the sidelines.

What's simultaneously so wonderful and, from another angle, so terrible about this show is that it's entirely possible to come up with an alternate interpretation for each and every one of those elements, because there's so much material involved that any individual person is almost inevitably destined to be selective. If something is inconsistent from POV A, then perhaps it isn't from POV B. If something makes sense from POV A, then perhaps it doesn't from POV B. You'd think the endless debates about whether or not Lelouch is dead or alive and what that implies would be an indication of this.

Well, aside from the natural fact that different human beings can disagree about everything from ideology and religion to entertainment and literature. Like I've said before, that certainly also applies here. If Sunrise never actually makes a direct sequel, then the debate will eventually die off and remain unresolved. In the meanwhile, it's business as usual.

EDIT: Edited the post a bit for the sake of clarity.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Xander

What's simultaneously so wonderful and, from another angle, so terrible about this show is that it's entirely possible to come up with an alternate interpretation for each and every one of those elements, because there's so much material involved that any individual person is almost inevitably destined to be selective. If something is inconsistent from POV A, then perhaps it isn't from POV B. If something makes sense from POV B, then perhaps it doesn't from POV A. You'd think the endless debates about whether or not Lelouch is dead or alive and what that implies would be an indication of this.

Well, aside from the natural fact that different human beings can disagree about everything from ideology and religion to entertainment and literature. Like I said before, that certainly also applies here.

Now, I'm not in the mood to play this game anymore, but at the very least I can comment on it.

Actually Xander, methinks the genius of Code Geass is the fact that the way it turned out there will be continued debate for years to come with regard to many of the points I tried to show (there are many others as well I know).

I also think that was what Okouchi and Taniguichi had to be shooting for in this show.

They had to know that by making it so vague the number of interpretations become voluminous and thus the staying power of Code Geass lasts well beyond the conclusion of episode 25.

I acknowledge that my opinions are just as right and just as wrong as Tactics or anyone else's.

The points I was trying to point out by playing Devil's Advocate was what the other side (Cart Driver club as I like to call them) has in their favor.

Geass is very much a work of art in the sense that like an MC Esher painting, you can look at it in many ways and interpret it in countless others.

Guess that's why we like it so much...flaws and all.

[azul120]

Subjectivity is fine and all, but it would not be wrong to declare it a failure on the following objective bases: justification of intent and the steps taken to get there. (Also known as who, what, when, where, why and how.) This is where Okouchi and Taniguchi failed in my book.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by azul120

Subjectivity is fine and all, but it would not be wrong to declare it a failure on the following objective bases: justification of intent and the steps taken to get there. (Also known as who, what, when, where, why and how.) This is where Okouchi and Taniguchi failed in my book.

I can see your point azul120, and I agree.

[Xander]

That's not too surprising, considering you two share similar opinions on the ending as a whole.

You can certainly say that, but there's a small problem: "Objective" does not necessarily mean "comprehensive" or "true" but merely "based on reality" or "based on fact". What happens when you don't take into account all the facts then? You're still being objective, strictly speaking, but it is entirely possible to reach completely different conclusions based on another set of facts. Particularly when describing the "why" because it is one of the most controversial and messiest parts of the ending.

Of course, this much assumes we can remove the external observer's own inherent biases, limitations and preferences...which is largely impossible. Just by choosing what information to include or dismiss from the analysis and by writing answers to those questions, we're already making many subjective choices in our own minds. I have no doubt that azul120's descriptions of the "justification of intent and the steps taken to get there" would not completely match mine, to a greater or lesser extent, though there would still be a certain amount of common overlap. Differences would sneak into all of those "objective" bases.

If all of the above applies to something as concrete as science (see concepts such as selective sampling and measurement bias, which clearly affect even "objective" experiments), then it certainly applies to something as abstract as a fictional work that is, by definition, "not based on fact". There's a finite set of information that makes up the story known as Code Geass, yes, but not only does it not follow the rules of our world...there's still way more information than what any one individual can easily handle.

If we're talking merely in terms of execution, broadly speaking, then...you could say that I'd even wish the show had been quite a bit more straightforward, in the end, at the expense of making it more predictable and possibly less interesting or exciting. But then again, that goes for far more aspects than just the final episode in particular, which was comparatively better off than others, and I definitely don't consider it a complete "failure" either in spite of acknowledging a number of problems. Even by working off the bases azul120 listed as "objective" we aren't simply presented with a binary choice.

[Sol Falling]

lol, oh god I'm back again...yeah, frankly, I can't be assed to get into huge debates anymore but like Xander I'm gonna throw my two cents in.

Originally Posted by azul120

Subjectivity is fine and all, but it would not be wrong to declare it a failure on the following objective bases: justification of intent and the steps taken to get there. (Also known as who, what, when, where, why and how.) This is where Okouchi and Taniguchi failed in my book.

As Xander says, however, that limited set of 'objective bases' itself cannot be called comprehensive. Geass is a work of fiction--the assumptions which underly any assessments of who/what/when/where/why/how (i.e. who is good? who is evil? who is competent? who is inept?) are themselves subjective. Frankly, the idea that Code Geass' ending isn't realistic because its portrays peace and optimism in a renewed world looks completely ridiculous to me when you then turn around and say that peace and prosperity for the world could be successfully maintained contingent on the guidance and leadership of a single (18 year old!) individual. Honestly--peace and cooperation after Zero: Requiem is unrealistic, unbelievable tripe, while Lelouch singlehandedly becoming an 'enlightened emperor' and using diplomacy to establish an era of peace is not? What is the true 'idealism'/'romanticism' here? :P Basically, I reject any assertions of Code Geass' ending being poor which claim to have an objective basis. Certainly, objectively, you could not call Zero:Requiem a perfect piece of art either. Frankly, though, for the nature of the show and the themes it presented it is a very solid conclusion to the narrative. This was not a 'realistic' show to begin with--all of its cynicism was just as exaggerated as its optimism. Your dissatisfaction--grounded in your approval of various individual characters themselves and what ultimately happened to them--is certainly subjective.


Now to comment on this...

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Okay, I'm gonna play devil's advocate here.
I know full well that Okouchi said Lelouch is dead in Continue#42 but that doesn't mean Sunrise cannot, or will not resurrect him in some later series.

lol, forgive me if I cut out the rest of your post in its entirety, dude, 'cause I think what you've said above already encompasses the entire core of your argument. You acknowledge that Okouchi has said Lelouch is dead. You understand that, all of what you wrote below, would have been wild speculation that at best could be representative of (mostly limited, widely retracted, and extremely vague) production-level meddling overriding the explicit intent of the story creators. So basically, in the end all your argument comes down to is you think there's an actual chance that Sunrise will come out and revive Lelouch in response to the loud cries of a particularly deluded portion of Code Geass's fan community, and not that there is any concrete backing to any of these desperate convolutions. Actual C.C. fans already have plenty of material in the remarkable growth and character development which the conclusion of Zero: Requiem represents for her--very much similar to Kallen really.
Even if Sunrise were eventually somehow pushed to a retcon out of desperate commercial necessity, it would be absolutely laughable if they based his return on something as absurd and ridiculous as the cart-driver theory. So basically: no, the 'cart-driver club' has got nothing at all. And as for whether or not Sunrise is actually creatively bankrupt enough that they will be forced to revive Lelouch to extend the Code Geass franchise, you can check back in with me in 5 years. :P

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Spoiler for It's too long so I need to simplify it:

Okay, I'm gonna play devil's advocate here.
I know full well that Okouchi said Lelouch is dead in Continue#42 but that doesn't mean Sunrise cannot, or will not resurrect him in some later series.

@Tactics.
I think you need to back up a lot of the assumptions you're making with facts from the actual anime, not the side materials that were all quite vague, obtuse, and convoluted at best.




Just because you think his death means release doesn't make it so.
It could easily mean that Lelouch no longer has the burden of his rebellion/Zero, and that he is now released to pursue a normal life now that everyone thinks he's dead.
Unless you've got something that specifically defined what is meant by those words, you cannot state what you think they mean as fact.
Your opinion is fine, and could be correct, but you have to prove it to state it as fact.



I condensed that because it was too long.
Yes Okouchi and Taniguichi both stated in the November Newtype of 2008 that they had planned Zero Requiem from the begining.
Problem with that is the execution of it left much to be desired in the minds of many, many fans.
It was a grand idea, but fell short of expectations and essentially turned Code Geass into a trainwreck (there was even a website called Code Trainwreck back in 2008-2009 dedicated to showing how it was so in detail, pity it's gone now).



Lelouch's body went into the sun huh?
You're gonna need more than your opinions and a picture drama to back that up.
Let's see some actual proof vis a vie the director or writer comming out and stating it in an interview or the like.

Also, as to why Lelouch would have faked his death at the end of episode 25, that's easy.
He wanted to fulfill his promise to CC which was to fulfill her wish.
That is stated in episode 15 of R2 very clearly when Lelouch tells Charles, "STOP! She's my...She's my...."
She's his what? True love? Girlfriend? WHat?
Lelouch then goes on to tell Charles that he cannot take CC away from Lelouch.
Unfortunately the romantic aspects of CC and Lelouch's relationship are handicaped by the writer and the director because they have this ridiculous love quadrangle going on between Lelouch x Shirley x CC x Kallen.
However, Sunrise has already told us what they consider to be the "official" pairing via all of the official artwork.

This exchange during the end of episode 15 is important to episode 25 because we have Lelouch asking CC:
"Why didn't you attempt to die with me as your replacement?
Why didn't you attempt to push the hell that is eternal life on me?"

That bit of dialogue is very important.
Lelouch acknowledges that eternal life is hell, a punishment.
Okouchi's own Mutuality story (which he wrote himself) states that Suzaku will be punished by becoming Zero and Lelouch will be punished by Zero killing the Demon Emperor.
Thus if Zero Requiem is a punishment for Lelouch to atone for all his sins, how is dying for real going to punish him?
The answer is clear.
It isn't.
However, Okouchi went ahead and killed Lelouch anyway thus contradicting this episode's theme and major plot points.

I'll explore the major contradictions between ep 15 and ep 25 by going deeper into ep 15.

In ep 15 Lelouch declares that he'll make CC "smile."
Now, how do you suppose he's going to do that if he's dead in episode 25?
Hmmm?

What's worse about R2 as a whole is when the writer and director threw this little tid-bit at the viewers.
Lelouch as he's trying to get to CC while she's falling at the end of ep 15 R2:
"I know it CC! Your Geass , your true wish..."

That wish being to be truly loved by someone because her Geass made people love her falsely.
Allow me to show you via the anime so there's no confusion:

Thus there is a major flaw in Code Geass R2 ep 25 since Lelouch dies at the end.

The storyline started in ep 15 continued on to at least episode 23 when we have CC and Lelouch discussing the coming battle.

I'll just note that Lelouch says to CC: "For the sake of so many lives, WE cannot stop anymore. Isn't that so CC?"
We?
What part does CC play in the Zero Requiem.
Hardly any that we see in ep 25.
It's pretty much all Suzaku and Lelouch.
Heck Jeremiah has more of a part to play.
All CC does is pray for Lelouch.
Remember, at that point in episode 23 the Zero Requiem had already been decided upon.

The meaning of that exchange between CC and Lelouch in ep 23 can be taken any number of ways, however when we combine the information from ep 15, then skip to ep 25 we can get a partial idea of what is going on.
Although, it's still pretty fuzzy since we're not given clear or concise details, which is what Okouchi said in the Continue42 interview: "I think we may have told too much."

Now let's get to ep 25 itself.
The flashback with Suzaku is probably the most significant part of that episode.

Here's the youtube link:

Okay, so we've got Suzaku saying: "Are you sure you want to go through with this?"
Lelouch: "Suzaku, you shall kill me as promised."
Suzaku: "Do you absolutely want to do this?"
Lelouch: "All the hatred of the world is gathered on me as planned."
Lelouch: "Then all you have to do is erase my existence and put an end to this chain of hatred."

Okay that is the important part right there.
Dying doesn't erase someone's existence.
Existence implies knowledge of the person ever being alive period.
On top of that Okouchi has already told us in ep 15 that Lelouch considers eternal life to be a punishment and a hell.
Food for thought.

The next part doesn't make a damn bit of sense.

Lelouch: "The Black Knights will have the legend of Zero left behind for them."

That's just BS, the BK's knew Lelouch was Zero and there's no way they're going to just accept someone else. That's garbage.

Now let's move on to CC praying.
She says: "As the price for casting Geass on other people, you..."
YOU WHAT OKOUCHI!
It's those vague little bits of dialogue that lead viewers into the wrong direction since Lelouch is dead and dialogue like that implies otherwise.

Skip ahead past to Lelouch explaining Suzaku's end of the bargain.
Lelouch: "Suzaku, you will become a hero. You will become Zero, savior of the world, who rescued everyone from the enemy of the world, Emperor Lelouch vi Britainnia."

Suzaku penetrates Lelouch.
Then Lelouch says: "This is also punishment for you...you be the defender of justice and wear a mask forever...you will no longer be able to live as Suzaku Kururugi. You will sacrifice all of your own hapiness for the world...eternally.."
To which Suzaku says: "I accept...that Geass.."
What?
If it's metaphorical, then I guess it makes sense.
Otherwise, how the heck does Geass make Suzaku a defender of justice forever?
It's those little inconsistencies that really ruin the ending of this show.

Now if you go to 5:32 in the clip you'll notice that one of the first things Nunnally sees when she touches Lelouch is Charles' hand with the code on it as Lelouch is saying "Yes...I...destroy...worlds..."
Why?
What is the significance of that?
It has nothing to do with Shirley, Kallen, CC or any of the other images that Nunnally sees.
Why did Taniguichi choose to show Charles' hand with the code on it.
Why not just he and Marianne disintegrating into nothing.
That's not random, it was a decision he as the director had to make.
I wonder, was he asked to provide an "out" for Sunrise just in case they wanted to make a sequel?

For now, Lelouch is dead as fried chicken, but the future? Only Bandai knows for sure.

There, I got that rant off my chest.

I should say---
You're really smart, aren't you ?

Since you're so smart.
Answer this question.

1.

Why Suzaku and C.C. cried facing Lelouch death ?
If Lelouch is a Code-owner or even going to sleep, is there any needs to shed a tears ?
Please notice carefully, it's not only Lelouch and Charles in Ragnarok Connection.
There's Suzaku, C.C, and Marianne also.

C.C. is a Code-owner. She should've said that Lelouch got a Code.
Since she's already experieced it.

Look at how R2 Turn 21 and 22 played.
If Lelouch is a Code-owner, why Suzaku spin kick is needed to protect him ?
C.C. also said this before Emperor Lelouch come to Ashford.

"Are you sure, Lelouch ? Just me and some SP ?"

She implied that her role is a human shield together with those SP.
Why she need to implying those things if Lelouch is immortal ?

2.

If Lelouch is faking his death or going to sleep,
Why Nunnally didn't find that kind of detail during her "magic touch" moment ?
But finding Lelouch's precious moment instead ?

Lelouch is sure know how to take a cosmetics also.
Look carefully at the moment before and after he's stabbed.
Before he get stabbed, his face is clear and normal.
After get stabbed ( fall to Nunnally ) he got a "shadow" under his eyes, and even a pale face.

Look at C.C. when she is killed in S1 and R2.
Compare it, you'll find the difference.

3.

All Code-owners is never shown to use their Geass again after they received their Code.
But, look at Lelouch.
He didn't have any problems to spam his Geass throughout the Pendragon.
I wonder why ?

4.

This is Suzaku poem :

Spoiler for Suzaku:

The Emperor intended to end the world through supernatural powers. It is ironic that we, who stopped him, let the world end in another form.

Lelouch, can you hear me in the World of C?

A new world rises from the ruins of the world we destroyed.
The stagnant world comes to a stop,
and here is the world that continues to change.
The world we obtained at the cost of our lives.

It's a mystery.
I myself have become a villain to bring about peace.
I did it for Japan's sake.
Protecting Nunnally. That is something you would do.

It's a strange thing.
If there were no lies between us from the first moment up to the last, our days at school would have been the happiest.

I can no longer cry, no longer laugh and yet,
I think that the time will come when nobody will quarrel nor will they cry and scream.
But it's not that simple.
Somewhere, someone is lamenting, no doubt. Because of that, the conflicts will continue.

I think it's fine like that.
To want to stop the crying.
For that sake, you fight, that is, for a gentle world.
And because you are crude, you call it a "Rebellion".

Lelouch, do the winds from the ever changing world reach you too?

Why that lines ( the bold one ) exists ?
Does this means he is delusional as well as all character poems beside him ?

Why he need to said, "Can you hear me ? Now-- Nunnally, Kallen, and everyone is smiling." in PD Turn 25.01 ?
Lelouch is faking his death, right ? He's going to sleep, right ?
Why he need to say something like that and not, "You never really want to take responsibility for them, aren't you ?"
Since it's more in-character with Suzaku who always want him to take every responsibility. Saying something like that is an OOC.

5.

At Kiseki no Tanjoubi PD.
The last shots of each character is implying their progress after the end of R2.
Suzaku is Zero. Why the last shots doesn't potray him to work in Ikaruga or even guarding Nunnally as usual ?
But, choosing sun as his background, and let him said, "That grave is your sin."

6.

Look at where's Lelouch died.
In public. A revealed place.
What if someone tickle him ? Punching him ? Or even trying to play with his dead body ?
Jeremiah may ordering to retreat, but he doesn't make any order implying "Take the Emperor body !"
He's supposed to be alive, right ?

================================================== ==

Is that only me who realize this fact ?
Or I'm fool enough to be deceived by CG staff ?

I'm not blindly following those all side-materials.
I'm tried to compare it with the series first.
When it's matched, then, it's an OK.
Even if I'm still confused about why Kallen's line and development is deleted when she's one of the main characters ?

Thanks to the staff who makes everything is open to interpretation just to make sure there's no dead end for their marketing campaign.

As for correction.
Lelouch is not looking for C.C love.
Lelouch itself, in S1 already implying that their relationship is a contract.
A contract to make sure she can found that a Geass user can smile in the very end.

[rinichan]

Originally Posted by Tactics

Spoiler for hhhhhh....:

Both of them-- serve only one answer. No.

Lelouch is still a boy.
Look at how fragile he is-- and how his emotion affect his decision even to the limit called Zero Requiem.
C.C. always make a comment about how he chose his act, and she clearly stated Lelouch is a childish through her act towards him.

Look at the words carefully.
Your journey is over. You're released from this world.
Released ? If he's still alive-- why the word is released ?

Lelouch choose reality.
Is implying how he view the world.
This is also implied in the opening.


Charles - Schniezel - Zero.
Charles is looking for his past dreams, people without lies.
Schniezel is looking for a world with stability.
Lelouch is looking for the future, the explanation comes in R2 Turn 24.
It doesn't mean he's lying to be dead.

Lelouch is already died.
There's a lot of official statement about this.
Even Ookuchi already planned the Zero Requiem from the very beginning.

If you asked, where's Lelouch body.
Watch Kiseki no Tanjoubi Picture Drama.
Even if it's a "crack" Picture Drama, at the end, Suzaku will gave you the easiest clue to discover where's Lelouch graveyard.

Spoiler for Answer:

Lelouch body is sent to the sun together with Damocles.
Suzaku itself stated it as :

"I won't ask for your forgiveness."
"That grave is your sin."

And because of that, I understand why C.C. looks to the sky

He's died : 100 - 0

If he's alive, it'll ruined everything-- seriously

Yeah I know Ive watch the PD 10x (and that PD is a dream) already... but those are mere words... like I said before showing/doing is more believable done saying...

have you ever ask your self why the title is RE; just think of it....


even if he is a code bearer or not, Lelouch still needs to die....
thats all....


and yeah I dont think that director owns everything when I see the remarks everywhere including in anime, toys, merchandise... all i see is Sunrise/Project Geass and that make those people behind Code Geass the real owner... they could change whenever they like...

In the end Lelouch still choose reality, Lelouch choose to lie...


my postion still doesnt change 60-40...

looking forward on the next anime which they call Gaiden, maybe that series might answer all our questions...

on the other thought I might be one of the people that will say 100% NO if Sunrise doesnt include this thing... (manga/anime)

what coz this scene was a waste of time.... if they really are sure he's dead....



thats why I had reason to beleive that Lelouch is carrying this>>>>>

I just thought that thing fit inside the hay....

but in the end all I say is speculation, thats why this is a forum right... everything is speculation...

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by rinichan

Yeah I know Ive watch the PD 10x (and that PD is a dream) already... but those are mere words... like I said before showing/doing is more believable done saying...

have you ever ask your self why the title is RE; just think of it....


even if he is a code bearer or not, Lelouch still needs to die....
thats all....

I don't ask to look the "dream" content.
Look at how the last scene played.

Suzaku-- which is Zero is not potrayed in his worksite as Zero,
Why he need to points out that kind of background just to confirm "That grave is your sin."

Just like I said.
The marketing wants to keep CG fanbase strong still.
That's why even Lelouch death is left open to interpretation.
If it's case closed already, we won't have this discussion.

As for me, Lelouch death is perfect ending.
If Lelouch is choose to sleep or taking a holiday by faking his death.
I'm pretty sure R3 will have Fukuda as the director.
It's easy for him to save Mwu La Flagga from Lohengrin, a sword stab is much easier

[rinichan]

I'm pretty sure Kiseki no Birthday is Suzaku's dream, coz if it were Nunnaly how does she know about Rolo...

Nunnaly and Rolo never met at the entire series...

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by rinichan

I'm pretty sure Kiseki no Birthday is Suzaku's dream, coz if it were Nunnaly how does she know about Rolo...

Nunnaly and Rolo never met at the entire series...

If it's Suzaku dream.
Why Lelouch, Rivalz, Kallen, and even Rolo appeared first ?
Jeremiah as the narrator ? How Suzaku know that Rolo turns so attached to Lelouch ?

As for me, I'm always tought Kiseki no Birthday is Lelouch's dream itself-
Potraying what is Lelouch closest form of happiness, student council reunited ( R2 Turn 7 )
All characters come in the closest form that Lelouch known.

Lelouch come with Rivalz, Rolo, Kallen.
Suzaku come with Nunnally, Shirley, and Nina.
C.C. come out from nowhere ( she's not Student Council members )
Just like how R2 play the relationship.

In series,
Rivalz, Rolo, and Kallen mostly playing their importance from Lelouch POV.
Nunnally, Shirley, and Nina mostly playing their importance from Suzaku POV.
Why C.C. is there ? Watch R2 PD Turn 9, where Lelouch, C.C, and Kallen pretend to be a dancer.

The talk that happens later just like justfying the similarity between two characters.

Lelouch with C.C. ( Both of them using each other )
Suzaku with Kallen ( Too much similarities for their love life toward their LI, Euphimia for Suzaku as Lelouch for Kallen )
Nunnally with Rolo ( Both of them had similar view for Lelouch as a good brother )
Shirley with Nina ( Both of them--- Ngg, had a crush to each Lelouch and Euphimia ? )

I can't find another similarity between Shirley and Nina.
If Shirley's problem is her memory- she should've paired with Anya.
Too bad Anya is just a fanservice character

It's hard to said it comes from Suzaku's dream.
Especially when Lelouch farewell scene is the main focus there.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Tactics

I1.

Why Suzaku and C.C. cried facing Lelouch death ?
If Lelouch is a Code-owner or even going to sleep, is there any needs to shed a tears ?

It's called dramatic effect used to emphasize the death scene.
I already told you that Okouchi made it very clear Lelouch died.
However, my point was that there are numerous things throughout the show that lead the viewer in the direction of him being alive/immortal at the end.
Thus, I wonder if it's Sunrise that wanted those clues in the show to provide them with the ability to have a sequel if they chose.

C.C. is a Code-owner. She should've said that Lelouch got a Code.
Since she's already experieced it.

Look at how R2 Turn 21 and 22 played.
If Lelouch is a Code-owner, why Suzaku spin kick is needed to protect him ?
C.C. also said this before Emperor Lelouch come to Ashford.

"Are you sure, Lelouch ? Just me and some SP ?"

She implied that her role is a human shield together with those SP.
Why she need to implying those things if Lelouch is immortal ?

I'd write it the same way if I wanted to keep the viewers guessing about the status of my main character and a charade going.
Plus if as the writer I hadn't decided on whether or not he has a Code, or if Sunrise was wanting it left open and it contracted the storyline I wanted, I'd write it the way I wanted.

2.

If Lelouch is faking his death or going to sleep,
Why Nunnally didn't find that kind of detail during her "magic touch" moment ?
But finding Lelouch's precious moment instead ?

How do you know the scene with Charles grabbing Lelouch by the throat with his Code bearing hand wasn't an inidication that Nunnally saw Lelouch's immortality and thus knew she'd never see him again?

You don't know, and neither do I.
The point Tactics is that there are "outs" or more accurately, intended tid-bits that were added to this show to imply Lelouch survived.
The actual reasons for these tid-bits may never be known to us, but they're there.

Lelouch is sure know how to take a cosmetics also.
Look carefully at the moment before and after he's stabbed.
Before he get stabbed, his face is clear and normal.
After get stabbed ( fall to Nunnally ) he got a "shadow" under his eyes, and even a pale face.

Look at C.C. when she is killed in S1 and R2.
Compare it, you'll find the difference.

It's the most dramatic scene in the entire series.
The finale.
Of COURSE they're going to amp up the dramatic effect.
The "look" of Lelouch was the director's decision to get the most out of the scene.
If they didn't emphasize his death, then it wouldn't have the same dramatic effect.
Comparing it to CC's deaths is sort of moot considering those deaths were all after her Code had activated.
In short, Lelouch's "death mask" was done for effect, not for some hidden meaning.

3.

All Code-owners is never shown to use their Geass again after they received their Code.
But, look at Lelouch.
He didn't have any problems to spam his Geass throughout the Pendragon.
I wonder why ?

Considering the Renya (the official manga that IS part of the anime's timeline) shows powers of Geass that go way beyond the show, there is no way for any of us to know what the rules of Geass and Codes are.
This fanon (fan-canon, made up "facts" by fans) that Code bearers can't use their Geass before the Code is activated has no basis in any facts shown us in the show, nor told to us by the creators of the show.
Thus you third point is moot and irrelevent.

4.

This is Suzaku poem :

Who wrote the poems?
Was it Okouchi? Taniguichi? or someone else?
They're side materials anyway which have very little weight as far as I'm concerned.
I look at the anime and the stories that I know Okouchi or Taniguichi have written as part of the official timeline.
That's what I use as the basis for my opinions about Code Geass.
Poems are intended for romantic effect and are thus melodramatic by their very nature.
Sorry, but while very enjoyable to read, the poems don't prove anything with regard to the events of the show.

5.

At Kiseki no Tanjoubi PD.
The last shots of each character is implying their progress after the end of R2.
Suzaku is Zero. Why the last shots doesn't potray him to work in Ikaruga or even guarding Nunnally as usual ?
But, choosing sun as his background, and let him said, "That grave is your sin."

It was probably for effect and nothing more.
It looks nice in the background.

6.

Look at where's Lelouch died.
In public. A revealed place.

He died in public so that the world would see him die by Zero's hand.
What happened to the body afterwards is never told to us.

Lelouch is not looking for C.C love.
Lelouch itself, in S1 already implying that their relationship is a contract.
A contract to make sure she can found that a Geass user can smile in the very end.

Prove it.
We don't know Lelouch's feelings towards any of the women in Code Geass.

If we use only the anime then it would seem Lelouch was in love with Shirley, CC, and Kallen.

I'll post youtube clips tonight if I get the chance to show all the instances between CC and Lelouch that they are more than just "accomplices."
There are plenty of scenes that back up Lelouch having romantic feelings for Shirley and Kallen as well.

[Tactics]

Then I shall ask the my greatest wish in this debate.

Prove it.
Prove it to me the most strongest proof that clearly implying that Lelouch is still alive after being stabbed by Suzaku.
Without any word called speculation, opinion, probably, or anything similar.
Show me the fact. That's all I need.
I'll try as hard as I can to understand if you're using Lelouch pic' with a dog to prove it

As for my response---

Seriously,
I'm amazed about how you gathered Youtube videos for proof.
But-- I don't know why, when you answering it with something like this :

"It was probably for effect and nothing more.
It looks nice in the background."

"He died in public so that the world would see him die by Zero's hand."

I'm truly dissapointed.
I thought you're smarter than the most members as how you prepared with a wall of text.
Even I feel really weak due to the fact how I depend on side-material things.
Sorry for expecting something irrelevant.

Should I say that Lloyd, Cecille, Gino is looks nice for Nina background picture ?
Ah-- right, Kaguya, Tianzi, Schniezel, Kanon is also nice for Nunnally background.
As for myself, if it's really just a decoration. I found the sun is the worst background in CG PD history.

Yes. He died in public. Everyone knows that.
What I meant is, there's possibility someone taking his body other than his servant.
Look at Lelouch itself, known as a Demon Emperor.
There's a lot of people want to curse him after what had he done.
You missed my point about Jeremiah also.

My point about Code and Geass is also the fact.
Every Code-owners is Geass users. But---

C.C. never used her Geass again after she received the Code.
If she's just a lovesick girl, why she didn't use her Geass to Lelouch ?
Mao loves her is also a fact that makes him killed.

Charles never used his Geass again after he received the Code.
If he's looking for no excuses before executing Ragnarok Connection plan,
Why he didn't Geassing the entire Japan when he's able to Geassing the entire Ashford ?

V.V. also. His Geass never really shown.
If he's a Geass user strong enough to take a Code.
Why he didn't use his Geass ?

Lelouch and Rolo always use their Geass when it comes opportunity.
But why all three of them is not using their Geass again after they received their Code ?
Answer please. You're watching the entire show, didn't you ?

Hooo.
So you admit that poems is useless ?
When Shirley poems is clearly shown her progress ?
Or how Suzaku ended up like that just like he stated on his poems ?

You're smart, aren't you ?
Why don't you try to deny the poems with a better reasons as you know that the series explain everything when poems is all-delusional ?
I found that would be a better response rather than keep saying something like that is irrelevant.

Proof of love ?

Lelouch clearly see her as an equal.

As said in their terms, Witch and Warlock.
Witch is equal to a woman, while Warlock is equal to man.
Equal in terms of magic users as seen on a lot of RPG.
But those terms doesn't implying they're lovers.

He is waiter, she is waitress.
Does it mean they're lovers ?
No. They're equal in term of jobs.

Somehow I can feel your sadness as C.C. x Lelouch is completely denied by R2 Complete Guidebook itself.
Don't be sad. The Guidebook is not written by Ookuchi, right ?

Look at C.C. itself, is she really someone that going lovesick to Lelouch ?
How about Lelouch itself ? If they're lovers why he didn't try to have a last kiss with her ? He got two months before his death-- enough for taking the last lovers moment with her.
What a dissapointment if you're using magazine scans which states that Lelouch is still a virgin because he's focusing himself to the rebellion.

Her role in S1 and R2 clearly implying her role as an observer.
Each Code Geass manga incarnation clearly shown her role as an observer.

That's right.
Manga is not something you should believe, right ?
You're denying the poems, right ? Why we should believe something like manga ?
I don't remember if the manga is also written by Ookuchi itself.

Good Luck.
Somehow I think this is not a discussion for Turn 25 anymore

[azul120]

@Xander and @Sol Falling: The Code Geass universe must follow some weird rules then. Here's what I'm disputing:

The Black Knights betray Lelouch over some conscientious objections after their meeting with Schneizel. Now, there is some truth to this: he hid many secrets, including his identity, his Geass, as well as a couple incidents that didn't go over too well (the Geass Cult Massacre, and apparently the killing of Katase was also noted), he went AWOL during the Black Rebellion, and he was pretty responsible for the SAZ massacre to say the least. Most of this, however, was presented in a deliberately skewed light by Schneizel, who caps off all of this with a recording of the conversation between Lelouch and Suzaku, where he only plays back the part where Lelouch gives his false straightforward admission to geassing Euphie on purpose, of course omitting the fact that Suzaku calls him on his lie. The Black Knights don't believe Schneizel at first. Tamaki logically notes that the recording could have been faked by anyone. Then, from out of nowhere, Ohgi comes in with Villetta, a Britannian spy he had just earlier went AWOL knowing full well she wanted to kill him. They along with Kanon present "evidence" of Lelouch's abuse of Geass, obtained from Villetta and her time watching over Lelouch. But wait, doesn't this just reek of bitterness on Villetta's part over being geassed and later blackmailed out of squealing on Lelouch in R2, things Lelouch did out of necessity, and without which, Ohgi ironically enough would be dead? Or that if Lelouch were that unrestrained with his Geass in use or ability, Villetta would be subject to even more commands, which was anything but the case? Or, of course, that Villetta herself was a co-captor of Lelouch while the BKs at large were locked up? Or, of course, if Lelouch's identity as Britannian royalty was such a problem, one that he had quite possibly been rebelling against, why would Ohgi trust a Britannian spy who had done most of what she did in pursuit of nobility, and on top of that, the most notorious of the royals? Already it's become obvious why Ohgi's not fit to lead. But it doesn't stop there: Ohgi proposes a trade for Japan to relieve himself of any guilt over betraying their leader. Now here's the problem: all of this is happening without the knowledge of the UFN, who are counting on the Black Knights to liberate all Number stations and protect everyone else from Britannia, as well as take down its expansionism, and this is basically part of a ceasefire. Britannia is under no obligation to cede anything more. But nope, this has been about Japan for the Black Knights, even though at this point they would be abandoning the UFN, which would make them perhaps even worse than the abandonment of the BKs during the Black Rebellion that on which they called out Lelouch.

Now how does Ohgi accomplish this? He asks Kallen to take Lelouch over to the warehouse to discuss something, where they all put him on gunpoint without fair trial. Naturally, Kallen defends them from his accusations, but they order her to get out of the way, or else they will shoot her down under suspicion that she is under his Geass, essentially forcing Lelouch to lie that he was using them all in order to have her spared, only surviving because of Rolo's sudden intervention. One important logical flaw here: had he really geassed them, would they have enough of a free will to turn on him? And on top of all this, Ohgi complains that people shouldn't be used as pawns, even though he just used Kallen, who had just broken out of solitary confinement, as one. Naoto would be rolling in his grave. Does Ohgi get called out on any of this hypocrisy, including the spy he shagged in secret? No, and infact he stays on as one of their de facto leaders, and gets that very spy on board with them. They lie to everyone else that Zero is dead. Kaguya and Xing-ke, who would have never kowtowed to Schneizel or his claims and were likely kept out of the meeting for that reason, catch them on the lie. Diethard, who has just been visibly beaten up by Ohgi and Villetta, lampshades how Ohgi is completely miscast as a leader. All at the expense of the one who gave them a fighting chance, and without that person, things will get a lot messier for everyone. And I mean everyone. I'll get back to that in a bit.

The Zero Requiem, beyond an end to war and stopping Schneizel, is intended as atonement. Supposedly, atonement for the deaths he has caused, and his usage of geass. Now here's where this falls apart: said plan involves causing even more needless death and destruction than what he was responsible for earlier, from assassinations of various people who object to his changes (C. C. notes these people were within their rights), to detonating Mt. Fuji. As far as Geass usage goes, where he once used it with discretion, and never on his subordinates, he geasses his troops into full obedience and has masks placed on them, making Faceless Mooks out of them all, and uses them in We Have Reserves tactics against the Black Knights.

Now you may say that Lelouch did this on purpose in order to direct the world's hate onto himself so that they would work together towards the future. There are two things that are wrong with this picture. People and nations will always find something new to bicker about. Lelouch himself mentions that the plan is a gamble. Ozymandias' similar plan in the Watchmen only worked for 6 years or so, before conflicts began anew. And Real Life, well, that' full of examples. The other is that Lelouch could have called out either Charles or Schneizel, if not both, as the source of the world's problems. He had all but won the moment he replaced Charles as emperor. He was at first declared the emperor of justice, and had very high approval ratings, to which effect even some of the Black Knights appeared pleasantly surprised. He could have reforged his alliance with the Black Knights and the UFN, instead of antagonizing them and forcing them over to Schneizel's side, complicating the step of neutralizing the latter. What's more, he practically gives Schneizel the time to have Damocles and its stockpile of FLEIJAs operational. Getting onboard Damocles relied on Nina being both willing and able to work with Lelouch and craft the anti-FLEIJA.

Now, why would he go through a plan this destructive, convoluted and risky, with the pretense of atonement through death, when he could just atone by dedicating himself to reconstructive leadership for the rest of his life? There's only one logical explanation: he himself had given up on life. After Nunnally's apparent demise, and the betrayal from the Black Knights, which in particular estranged him from Kallen (not to mention the deaths of Rolo, Shirley, and presumably Euphie), he had lost practically everything he held dear to himself, and says as much during the Mutuality short stories, in addition to there being other methods towards peace. This is also led credence by his attempt at sealing himself inside the Sword of Akasha with his father immediately following the betrayal. That of course didn't happen as planned since the destruction of the Sword put him back outside. It's pretty fair to say that without at least one of the aforementioned leading conditions, he would have been kept from staging the Requiem. Not to mention that Nunnally herself likely wouldn't be used against him like that, something he'd feared all season.

For contrast, this was his endgame while he was Zero:

* Set up the UFN
* Rescue Nunnally as soon as he got the chance
* Defeat the Britannian regime

By Turn 16, he had actually achieved the first step, indicating that had he the opportunity to stay the course, he would have had a chance.

Lelouch's own words "The only ones who should kill, are those who are prepared to be killed!" as bookends, and final justification for his death. Yeah, it's all well and good he always accepted death as a possible and logical outcome, but it rings extremely unfair that others engaged in killing towards less noble goals, and to the effect that they complicated what he was going for, get to live on in peace, most notably the likes of Cornelia.

To twist the knife in the wound, the aesop that to change things, you may have to isolate yourself or not place people in high priority is screwed with by the fact that Ohgi and Villetta, the two people who complicated things for Lelouch towards the end and pushing towards that end in the first place because they placed their desires above everything else, are happily married at the end, with Ohgi becoming Prime Minister and Villetta getting the prestige she had always wanted, even though neither of them deserve it.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Tactics

Then I shall ask the my greatest wish in this debate.

Prove it.
Prove it to me the most strongest proof that clearly implying that Lelouch is still alive after being stabbed by Suzaku.

The proof is that Sunrise owns Code Geass, and my point as stated so eloquently by Sol Failing , is that Sunrise can use the events of R2 episode 25 as a retcon the way they were presented to us in the anime.

It doesn't matter whether the Kalulus like yourself want that or not (since the Kallen x Lelouch fans are the most vocal in this).

If the internet is any indication of how the majority of Code Geass fans feel, then it's clear most of them got the impression that Lelouch lived past ep 25.

I don't care if they're right or wrong in that respect.
My point is that the show supports their theory in part due to all of the unnecessary tid-bits that were added as I explained above.

You on the other hand clearly don't have anything accept your own interpretations of the picture dramas and other side materials which can be interpreted in a multitude of ways as Xander pointed out.

Seriously,
I'm amazed about how you gathered Youtube videos for proof.
But-- I don't know why, when you answering it with something like this :

Should I say that Lloyd, Cecille, Gino is looks nice for Nina background picture ?
Ah-- right, Kaguya, Tianzi, Schniezel, Kanon is also nice for Nunnally background.
As for myself, if it's really just a decoration. I found the sun is the worst background in CG PD history.

Why does me using the anime amaze you?
It shouldn't.
I've watched the show over two-dozen times and taken notes in order to write my fanfiction trilogy.
I've picked up on the more subtle details in the anime as I've done so, but they're still only my interpretations.
Just as you are giving yours.
I asked you to back up your interpretations with facts from the anime, but you haven't.

C.C. never used her Geass again after she received the Code.

She was slain as soon as she was given her Code according to the anime.
We don't know if her Geass was still active.
None of us knows how Geass and Codes work.
Okouchi himself said he wasn't going to explain it in Newtype November 2008 issue.
Therefore, not you, nor I, nor anyone else here can say how Geass works or what the rules are for Codes.
We don't know.

Hooo.
So you admit that poems is useless ?
When Shirley poems is clearly shown her progress ?
Or how Suzaku ended up like that just like he stated on his poems ?

Useless, no.
They're entertaining, but not part of the main storyline/canon.
It's like the Star Wars novels that take place in the Star Wars universe, but aren't part of the official story.
The Lost Colors game isn't part of the official storyline of Code Geass is it?
No, so why would the poems be any different.
Unless of course someone here would be kind enough to show me an interview or statement by Okouchi or Taniguichi saying otherwise.
If those two do consider them more than just side-materials for the fans, I'd like to know about it.

Proof of love ?
Somehow I can feel your sadness as C.C. x Lelouch is completely denied by R2 Complete Guidebook itself.
Don't be sad. The Guidebook is not written by Ookuchi, right ?

Mistake on your part Tactics.
Don't ever quote the R2 Guidebook to me, I own a copy and I've gone over it from cover to cover.
The pictures are very nice, but the information isn't worth the paper its printed on.
And NO, it was not written by Okouchi.
It is just another piece of merchandise that Sunrise put out to make money.
The R2 Guidebook also states clearly that Kallen was rejected by Lelouch and that she was unable to capture his thoughts or his feelings.
That blows Kallen x Lelouch out of the water like a torpedo in the side of a fuel-tanker.
Also Shirley is said to be only a friend in the R2 Guidebook.
My point: the R2 Guidebook is worthless in so far as romantic information about the characters is concerned.
This is why I use only the anime, and in the anime it is clear that Lelouch has feelings for all three women.

Look at C.C. itself, is she really someone that going lovesick to Lelouch ?
How about Lelouch itself ? If they're lovers why he didn't try to have a last kiss with her ? He got two months before his death-- enough for taking the last lovers moment with her.
What a dissapointment if you're using magazine scans which states that Lelouch is still a virgin because he's focusing himself to the rebellion.

Really?
Then why at the end of "Bloodstained Euphie" does CC say "We made a contract right? I'll be the only one...left beside you."

Also in the battle of Narita, what is the meaning of the whole exchange about "why is snow white?"
Lelouch answers her in the cave by saying that "I don't know why snow is white. I only know that I don't hate it."
If that's not a romantic interlude then what's the point of having it in the anime at all?
Answer: there is no point outside of showing a blosoming relationship between CC and Lelouch, much in the same way we see Lelouch's feelings for Kallen emerge when she's in the Bunny suit and he gets embarrassed.

You speak of poems outside the anime, yet you ignore the only one in the anime.

Going back to what CC said to Lelouch in "Bloodstained Euphie" and then skipping ahead to the very end of R2 episode 25 to CC's monologue where she says that "the power of the kings brings isolation...but's that not quite right is it Lelouch"; and you have the making of a very questionable circumstance.
Since Lelouch is dead, how is it that CC is no longer alone/in isolation.
How did Lelouch fulfill their contract if that contract was for her to be the only one left beside him?
Using ep 22 of R2 again: How did Lelouch keep his promise to CC, that promise being to have someone truly love her?

Interpret that however you please, but please back up your opinion with the anime, not what you've made up in your head.

That's right.
Manga is not something you should believe, right ?
You're denying the poems, right ? Why we should believe something like manga ?
I don't remember if the manga is also written by Ookuchi itself.

Renya of the Dark is written by Goro Taniguichi and is part of the official storyline of the Code Geass anime as stated by Taniguichi himself.
The powers we see portrayed in the new manga are far beyond what the anime shows.

Good Luck.

Thanks but I don't need luck.
I've got the anime to back up what I'm saying.

[rinichan]

Prove it to me the most strongest proof that clearly implying that Lelouch is still alive after being stabbed by Suzaku.

"wow", why do we need to proved anything? were not the mere creators of the story.
You should ask that to Sunrise/CLAMP (owns some design), not to two mere directors that you know...
If I'm not wrong not everything came from them.... how many directors, story writers are there, I think we should give them all credit... not to just 2 people.

Its clear that Lelouch is dead...
Alive with a code or not Lelouch is dead...

and that thing you think we respect that, you dont need to back it up... we dont need to back ourselves too coz what we people say here are mere opinions, speculations and theory...

why do you need to be mad??? People had different views on how they understand what people want to give them.... I understand that you only based everything on the R2 Guidebook... (but that Guidebook are mere words...)

Like what I said before its better doing/showing than saying...

Sunrise is acting like all politicians do, they lie...
The only thing the would back up the Guidebook is for Sunrise to answer us with an anime...

Thats why they replied ,

OK with manga(prequel - Shikoku no Renya) - just to answer our geass questions,
and OK maybe with anime ( Boukoku no Akito ) - I was hoping we get some answers there too, since its a GAIDEN (side story)...

--------

but isnt it also a debate during season one? that Lelouch is dead becoz of this picture>>>>


and CC is also crying... (crying even if he's not dead)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRTELYW2Mqk

thats why everyone has a working brain, so that people may use it the way we wanted too...

PS : sorry Im not an English major... probably some of my texts cannot be understand, but thats the best I can write...

---------------------------

If I'm not wrong CC called Lelouch a man in episode 24 of R2
(I cant find the vid....)
ah there....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvK4l...eature=related

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by azul120

@Xander and @Sol Falling: The Code Geass universe must follow some weird rules then. Here's what I'm disputing:

The Black Knights betray Lelouch over some conscientious objections after their meeting with Schneizel. Now, there is some truth to this: he hid many secrets, including his identity, his Geass, as well as a couple incidents that didn't go over too well (the Geass Cult Massacre, and apparently the killing of Katase was also noted), he went AWOL during the Black Rebellion, and he was pretty responsible for the SAZ massacre to say the least. Most of this, however, was presented in a deliberately skewed light by Schneizel, who caps off all of this with a recording of the conversation between Lelouch and Suzaku, where he only plays back the part where Lelouch gives his false straightforward admission to geassing Euphie on purpose, of course omitting the fact that Suzaku calls him on his lie. The Black Knights don't believe Schneizel at first. Tamaki logically notes that the recording could have been faked by anyone. Then, from out of nowhere, Ohgi comes in with Villetta, a Britannian spy he had just earlier went AWOL knowing full well she wanted to kill him. They along with Kanon present "evidence" of Lelouch's abuse of Geass, obtained from Villetta and her time watching over Lelouch. But wait, doesn't this just reek of bitterness on Villetta's part over being geassed and later blackmailed out of squealing on Lelouch in R2, things Lelouch did out of necessity, and without which, Ohgi ironically enough would be dead? Or that if Lelouch were that unrestrained with his Geass in use or ability, Villetta would be subject to even more commands, which was anything but the case? Or, of course, that Villetta herself was a co-captor of Lelouch while the BKs at large were locked up? Or, of course, if Lelouch's identity as Britannian royalty was such a problem, one that he had quite possibly been rebelling against, why would Ohgi trust a Britannian spy who had done most of what she did in pursuit of nobility, and on top of that, the most notorious of the royals? Already it's become obvious why Ohgi's not fit to lead. But it doesn't stop there: Ohgi proposes a trade for Japan to relieve himself of any guilt over betraying their leader. Now here's the problem: all of this is happening without the knowledge of the UFN, who are counting on the Black Knights to liberate all Number stations and protect everyone else from Britannia, as well as take down its expansionism, and this is basically part of a ceasefire. Britannia is under no obligation to cede anything more. But nope, this has been about Japan for the Black Knights, even though at this point they would be abandoning the UFN, which would make them perhaps even worse than the abandonment of the BKs during the Black Rebellion that on which they called out Lelouch.

Now how does Ohgi accomplish this? He asks Kallen to take Lelouch over to the warehouse to discuss something, where they all put him on gunpoint without fair trial. Naturally, Kallen defends them from his accusations, but they order her to get out of the way, or else they will shoot her down under suspicion that she is under his Geass, essentially forcing Lelouch to lie that he was using them all in order to have her spared, only surviving because of Rolo's sudden intervention. One important logical flaw here: had he really geassed them, would they have enough of a free will to turn on him? And on top of all this, Ohgi complains that people shouldn't be used as pawns, even though he just used Kallen, who had just broken out of solitary confinement, as one. Naoto would be rolling in his grave. Does Ohgi get called out on any of this hypocrisy, including the spy he shagged in secret? No, and infact he stays on as one of their de facto leaders, and gets that very spy on board with them. They lie to everyone else that Zero is dead. Kaguya and Xing-ke, who would have never kowtowed to Schneizel or his claims and were likely kept out of the meeting for that reason, catch them on the lie. Diethard, who has just been visibly beaten up by Ohgi and Villetta, lampshades how Ohgi is completely miscast as a leader. All at the expense of the one who gave them a fighting chance, and without that person, things will get a lot messier for everyone. And I mean everyone. I'll get back to that in a bit.

True, there are some hypocritical and self-serving aspects of what Ougi did here. However, you do have to give some credit to Schniezel, and the overriding fact that in the first place there were no other options. The real factor in the greater scheme of things at that stage of the story was the unveiling of Fleija. Remember, Schniezel's original intention was not even to negotiate--he set up a meeting so he could demand that Zero be handed over via the threat of Fleija. With Ougi's request of Japan, there might have seemed to be an illusion of freedom there; but really, from the moment the Fleija was first fired in the skies over Tokyo, the military campaign against Britannia was effectively over.

The Zero Requiem, beyond an end to war and stopping Schneizel, is intended as atonement. Supposedly, atonement for the deaths he has caused, and his usage of geass. Now here's where this falls apart: said plan involves causing even more needless death and destruction than what he was responsible for earlier, from assassinations of various people who object to his changes (C. C. notes these people were within their rights), to detonating Mt. Fuji. As far as Geass usage goes, where he once used it with discretion, and never on his subordinates, he geasses his troops into full obedience and has masks placed on them, making Faceless Mooks out of them all, and uses them in We Have Reserves tactics against the Black Knights.

Now you may say that Lelouch did this on purpose in order to direct the world's hate onto himself so that they would work together towards the future. There are two things that are wrong with this picture. People and nations will always find something new to bicker about. Lelouch himself mentions that the plan is a gamble. Ozymandias' similar plan in the Watchmen only worked for 6 years or so, before conflicts began anew. And Real Life, well, that' full of examples. The other is that Lelouch could have called out either Charles or Schneizel, if not both, as the source of the world's problems. He had all but won the moment he replaced Charles as emperor. He was at first declared the emperor of justice, and had very high approval ratings, to which effect even some of the Black Knights appeared pleasantly surprised. He could have reforged his alliance with the Black Knights and the UFN, instead of antagonizing them and forcing them over to Schneizel's side, complicating the step of neutralizing the latter. What's more, he practically gives Schneizel the time to have Damocles and its stockpile of FLEIJAs operational. Getting onboard Damocles relied on Nina being both willing and able to work with Lelouch and craft the anti-FLEIJA.

Now, why would he go through a plan this destructive, convoluted and risky, with the pretense of atonement through death, when he could just atone by dedicating himself to reconstructive leadership for the rest of his life? There's only one logical explanation: he himself had given up on life. After Nunnally's apparent demise, and the betrayal from the Black Knights, which in particular estranged him from Kallen (not to mention the deaths of Rolo, Shirley, and presumably Euphie), he had lost practically everything he held dear to himself, and says as much during the Mutuality short stories, in addition to there being other methods towards peace. This is also led credence by his attempt at sealing himself inside the Sword of Akasha with his father immediately following the betrayal. That of course didn't happen as planned since the destruction of the Sword put him back outside. It's pretty fair to say that without at least one of the aforementioned leading conditions, he would have been kept from staging the Requiem. Not to mention that Nunnally herself likely wouldn't be used against him like that, something he'd feared all season.

For contrast, this was his endgame while he was Zero:

* Set up the UFN
* Rescue Nunnally as soon as he got the chance
* Defeat the Britannian regime

By Turn 16, he had actually achieved the first step, indicating that had he the opportunity to stay the course, he would have had a chance.

I think, if you want to understand the specific shape and meaning of Code Geass' ending, you have to look at Zero: Requiem in more personal terms. Lelouch's 'atonement' was not for causing death or using Geass in any general sense--it is a very specific mirror and repentance for the particular sin of disgracing Euphemia. As I know you understand very well, at that point in time Lelouch had lost practically everyone. However, the one person right there, pointing his sword at him, was that friend of his past, Kururugi Suzaku. How did Lelouch reconcile with Suzaku? By showing him, in the sincerest way possible, that he was truly sorry for what he had done to Euphemia.

To skip forward a little to what you mentioned in your next paragraph, this is Lelouch's fulfillment of "shoot, only if you are prepared to be shot also". The end of Code Geass S1 was about Lelouch turning Euphie into a symbol of hatred, framing her to rally the Japanese people towards total rebellion. In the same way, and as another of the major parallels between CG's two seasons, the conclusion of R2 was about Lelouch allowing himself in turn to be turned into a symbol of hatred, once again becoming a rallying point, but this time towards a better and peaceful tomorrow. It's the specific sin of completely distorting the utter core of Euphie's purpose and existence which Lelouch is atoning for, and it is a sin specific to Lelouch and his Geass alone which no one else can parallel. That's why this had to be the way in which Lelouch concluded everything--Lelouch's regret, and Suzaku's agony, simply could not have been ended in any other way.

If you want to talk about the specific mechanics of it:

- As to the degree of worldwide destruction--there are two issues here. First is the matter of defeating Schniezel, which was an unavoidable conflict regardless of whatever path Lelouch had chosen. Whether as Zero, leader of the Black Knights, or as Lelouch vi Britannia, the 99th Emperor, Fleija would have to be stopped. To that end, what you can see from the show is that Lelouch bet everything on Nina and creating a Fleija-jammer. For the sake of that: doing a geass take-over of Britannia; separating her from their friends at Ashford; stalling for time at the expense of thousands of soldiers' lives and even Britannia's capital Pendragon; all of that was strictly necessary. So, essentially, this level of destruction in the show's endgame was pretty much necessary--you can say that maybe Lelouch would've been able to take down Schniezel without developing the Fleija-canceller, but frankly that's only speculation.

- The second issue is with regards to the destruction Lelouch facilitated outside of what he needed to beat Schniezel, and the differentiator between himself and Charles or Schniezel as a symbol of hatred. With regards to this, it would be helpful to remember one of Lelouch's catchphrases, "destruction precedes reconstruction". Lelouch wanted to be 'a destroyer and creator of worlds'--the point here is that Lelouch understands that, in order to create something truly new, you must destroy something else. The 'rivers of blood' Lelouch spilt, as an oppressive emperor, were for this purpose. To explain, first consider the established traditions and aggressive elements of old Britannia: the nobles whose rights C.C. mentions being stripped away, and the aristocrats who'd built fortunes from Britannia's system of exploitation and prejudice. These are the internal elements of Britannia which would continue to promote conflict, no matter the state of the rest of the world. Destroying these families, institutions, traditions and rules are thus a necessary step towards creating a peaceful tomorrow. We can presume, if there were any elements like these in other countries which were nearly as bad as they were in Britannia, that during the few months when Lelouch reigned over the whole world, he probably destroyed those too.

Next, consider what Lelouch means by "chains of hatred". Again, we have to be specific here--this is specifically the bad blood between the major powers and oppressed colonies, particularly towards Britannia--built up by years of war and prejudice. Britannia, being the largest instigator of conflicts, thus created distrust on the level of the common citizenry of the various nations themselves. In such circumstances, for example, isn't it very obvious that a citizen of the Chinese Federation, say, might hold a prejudice against the Britannian people as a whole? The key point then, here, in what Lelouch did, was that he explicitly seperated himself (and the Britannian leadership) from the Britannian people--by openly oppressing them in front of the rest of the world. This kind of event is something which cannot be fabricated--which is why it was not an option to pin it on somebody else like Charles. Anyway, the point is that it was only by separating the Britannian leadership from the Britannian people was Lelouch able to specifically make himself a convincing symbol of hatred, enough such that the common citizenry of the rest of the world would no longer hate ordinary Britannians. This contribution, especially in light of the simplified power structure in the Code Geass universe where there are few notable organizations aside from the three major powers, would actually go a long way towards making a peace that is actually sustainable. The new face of Britannia being Nunally, and actively cooperating with the EU and CF also working towards reconstruction, and its pretty clear that major conflicts like those which happened before should not exist anymore--at least for a significant period into the future.

In the context of Code Geass' world, you don't need to take Lelouch's death to have achieved 'rainbows and unicorns' forever. Simply look at Zero:Requiem as having established a foundation for a firm cessation of conflict between their universe three major powers, and you can very much say it achieved a concrete benefit. There's no need to deny that yes, of course conflict will probably always happen. However, that does not change the fact that through Lelouch's actions, the world is probably very much a better place than it was before.

Finally:

Lelouch's own words "The only ones who should kill, are those who are prepared to be killed!" as bookends, and final justification for his death. Yeah, it's all well and good he always accepted death as a possible and logical outcome, but it rings extremely unfair that others engaged in killing towards less noble goals, and to the effect that they complicated what he was going for, get to live on in peace, most notably the likes of Cornelia.

To twist the knife in the wound, the aesop that to change things, you may have to isolate yourself or not place people in high priority is screwed with by the fact that Ohgi and Villetta, the two people who complicated things for Lelouch towards the end and pushing towards that end in the first place because they placed their desires above everything else, are happily married at the end, with Ohgi becoming Prime Minister and Villetta getting the prestige she had always wanted, even though neither of them deserve it.

As far as the 'justice' of Code Geass' ending, and the fate of Lelouch in comparison to that of countless others, I think it would help to think about one thing: the concept Okouchi and Taniguchi have talked about with which they started this story, namely the idea of what is a "modern hero". What makes Lelouch Lelouch?--I would argue that it is probably two things. The first is his ability to acknowledge the truth of reality, not look back, and do what needs to be done. This is what is 'modern' about Lelouch--that he doesn't work on blind idealism, that he understands that sometimes getting his hands dirty is simply necessary, that he can unflinchingly make sacrifices for the sake of the future. However, Lelouch is not simply "modern"--he is also a "hero". In that case, then, if not idealism, what makes Lelouch a hero? In Code Geass' conclusion, and Zero: Requiem, I think that answer is revealed to be "empathy". Lelouch is not simply a self-serving hypocrite who is able to unflinchingly sacrifice others--he is also able, and willing, to sacrifice himself. That's what makes him a real hero, and how the show inequivocably proves where his heart is. Of the rest of the cast, some of them might not quite be so herioc; they might not be quite as competent, or be a bit selfish as is only human. However, it's to those kinds of people that Lelouch has left the world--as it is only right for a hero to do. In the end, it is a fact that not every human can be perfect--even Lelouch wasn't. However, even so, people still do deserve a chance to take a stab at happiness--and in the end, that is exactly what Lelouch gave his life to do.

[Tactics]

Ah, correction.
I'm not an exact Lelouch - Kallen fans. I'm just thinking they're the most weirdest pairings in the show.
Even if the Guidebook implying that, their romantic development is almost zero in the series itself.

To be exact-- I'm main characters fans ( Lelouch, Suzaku, C.C., Kallen ).
I love how their character related and developed heavily-- based on each of their POV just by having interaction between each other.

You're trying to derailing C.C. characters there.
She is not looking for love. If she's just looking for love, why need to leave Mao ?
Look carefully at her question before Lelouch said Witch and Warlock terms.

Or maybe when the battle in Narita is over ? She said that she's glad someone appreciate her.
But, at S1 Turn 13-- She's prepared to leave Lelouch when remembering Lelouch shown his dependance that implying a romantic touch in her POV.

I'd get upset if you try to deny or even derailing Suzaku existence too ^^;

Sorry if I make you scared Rinichan ^^;
Thanks to you. You made everything simplier.

I'm just thinking that Lelouch death is perfect ending.
It clearly justify how Lelouch life worked.
As well as how Geass will cursed you to lose everything that important to you one by one until it reached your pillars of existence.

Using theory like he's sleeping or maybe he's hiding, it just really wrong.
Even in logical context or even story context.

In story context,
Look at how Suzaku despise him if he's not taking responsibilty about what he had decided.
Having Suzaku in his side will clearly take him to a strict condition where he's trapped by responsibility.
Look at how he come to angst in Avalon when Lelouch is confused by Nunnally appeareance.

In logical context,
You spent two months to make sure everyone in this world hate you.
Now you're going to hide. Where are you going to ? Arctic ?
Or maybe-- if you're going to sleep. Why you need to be awake ?
What do you expect if you get awake ?

I'm not following the series ?
Fine. But the series clearly show this :

Euphimia death :



Rolo death :



Lelouch death



Saying Lelouch is still alive after showing similar symptomps like that,
It's just the same like saying Euphimia and Rolo death is useless.
Especially when their death did really impact the general perspective of the series.

Clearly showing it by the grave site ?
Now. If there's a grave of the Demon Emperor.
Who would like to visit it ? Especially when there's someone saying :

"Ssh, if they listened to you, you and your family will be killed."

The visitors itself is limited to Nunnally, Suzaku, C.C, Kallen, and us-- viewers who understand his action.
If someone sees even if it just one of them visiting the grave site, everyone would ask.

"Why there's a need to visit a grave site of someone like that ?"

What is your answer ?
It'd be simple for Nunnally.
He's her brother. A brother who made her looks like a slave before her execution.

She had a clear reason. But how about everyone else ?
Friend ? Proof of Victory ? Accomplice ? Love interests ? Understand him more than those who didn't watch the show ?
If the official grave is exist, it comes the next question.

"He's hated by the world. Why his grave needed to be exist ?"

To satisfy the viewers ?
Having his graveyard is also implicitly means there's someone in this world who is still supporting his ideals.
That's why it makes everything more logical if his body is sent to the sun together with Damocles.
Both of them representing the main cause that makes the world cornered into terror.

( What makes me more surprised is the fact that everyone seems to forgot that is Schniezel who created the Damocles.
Or maybe how everyone didn't realized about how fast Damocles eliminating the Pendragon just when Lelouch commence his attack to Japan )

If there's a logical reason to support him back to live,
I'd like to hear it.