Heavy Object - Old Anime Discussion Thread

[Haak]

Episode 7

The first half was a bit of a mess if I'm honest. I really struggled to understand what Froyltia and Seewax were talking about. I understand that Seewax started the whole conflict by sniping the Oceania soldiers but what the hell does that have to do with "conscientious journalism" (because that just looks like plain vigilantism to me)? Moreover Froyltia talked about how Oceania wanted to massacre their own people anyway, so doesn't that mean Seewax didn't actually start anything that wasn't gonna happen anyway? Then she said Oceania were going to massacre their own people so to paint themselves as victims and drive up anti-war sentiment but...that makes no sense whatsoever. It would be the complete opposite. I'm so confused as to what hell is going on.

Then we get what seems like a very poorly constructed argument in favour of letting the military run without any media scrutiny, because apparently such "idealistic journalism" leads to more casualties (even though that clearly wasn't an act of journalism). Riiiiiiight. (I'm getting flashbacks to Gate Episode 8)

The second half was much better. Qwerty's lead-like denseness aside, I liked the way both of them figured out a plan and, understanding the implications, put up a brave front for Froyltia's sake.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Haak

Episode 7

The first half was a bit of a mess if I'm honest. I really struggled to understand what Froyltia and Seewax were talking about. I understand that Seewax started the whole conflict by sniping the Oceania soldiers but what the hell does that have to do with "conscientious journalism" (because that just looks like plain vigilantism to me)? Moreover Froyltia talked about how Oceania wanted to massacre their own people anyway, so doesn't that mean Seewax didn't actually start anything that wasn't gonna happen anyway? Then she said Oceania were going to massacre their own people so to paint themselves as victims and drive up anti-war sentiment but...that makes no sense whatsoever. It would be the complete opposite. I'm so confused as to what hell is going on.

Then we get what seems like a very poorly constructed argument in favour letting the military run without any media scrutiny, because apparently such "idealistic journalism" leads to more casualties (even though that clearly wasn't an act of journalism). Riiiiiiight. (I'm getting flashbacks to Gate Episode 8)

What Seewax did had escalated their plans. Yeah they were planning to kill their own civilians but the only reason they weren't going to carry out their plan was because there were no reporters to report their "show of force". As long as no reporters were on the scene they won't carry out their plan.

Now that their own soldiers were killed in a failed mission, they're escalating their Operation to include bringing out the 0.5th Object for an even bigger show of force. Which in turn push forward the Coalition's timetable if you think about it- So who actually benefited the most?

[ReddyRedWolf]

I like the boys were smart enough not to bring then idiot with them. Sure they lied to him but they probably saved his life.

Is it just me or are the boys starting to become adrenaline junkies going into danger? Even if its a 0.5 generation it is still an Object.

Seems the politician has a lot in stake for the Object and Elite policies of the Legitimate Kingdom but the boy wrecking Objects by themselves are ruining that paradigm.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Haak

Episode 7

The first half was a bit of a mess if I'm honest. I really struggled to understand what Froyltia and Seewax were talking about. I understand that Seewax started the whole conflict by sniping the Oceania soldiers but what the hell does that have to do with "conscientious journalism" (because that just looks like plain vigilantism to me)?

Sewax wanted to write a story showing the atrocities of the Oceanian military state and turn public opinion against them which would then cause the coalition to get rid of them.

That's what he meant by 'conscientious journalism', he wanted to use the power of the media to push the issue he wanted.

Moreover Froyltia talked about how Oceania wanted to massacre their own people anyway, so doesn't that mean Seewax didn't actually start anything that wasn't gonna happen anyway?

The coalition knew about their plan from the beginning, which is why they didn't let journalists in, since they wouldn't start the massacre without people to document it.

Then she said Oceania were going to massacre their own people so to paint themselves as victims and drive up anti-war sentiment but...that makes no sense whatsoever. It would be the complete opposite.

They were going to kill them and spin it like it was the coalition's fault for invading them in the first place, which would, in their minds, turn public sentiment against the coalition.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

What Seewax did had escalated their plans. Yeah they were planning to kill their own civilians but the only reason they weren't going to carry out their plan was because there were no reporters to report their "show of force". As long as no reporters were on the scene they won't carry out their plan.

Now that their own soldiers were killed in a failed mission, they're escalating their Operation to include bringing out the 0.5th Object for an even bigger show of force. Which in turn push forward the Coalition's timetable if you think about it- So who actually benefited the most?

So they're killing their own citizens as a show of force? I really struggle to understand the reasoning there. In any case, wouldn't it simply be enough for the coalition to maintain this supposed media blackout?

Originally Posted by Endscape

Sewax wanted to write a story showing the atrocities of the Oceanian military state and turn public opinion against them which would then cause the coalition to get rid of them.

That's what he meant by 'conscientious journalism', he wanted to use the power of the media to push the issue he wanted.

But isn't the coalition doing that anyway?

The coalition knew about their plan from the beginning, which is why they didn't let journalists in, since they wouldn't start the massacre without people to document it.

That doesn't make sense to me either to be honest. Why does Oceania not have a media outlet of its own? Even ISIS is capable of posting videos and tweeting shit.

They were going to kill them and spin it like it was the coalition's fault for invading them in the first place, which would, in their minds, turn public sentiment against the coalition.

But how would they successfully spin such an unbelievable narrative into the media on the coalition's side? Why would the coalition worry about that at all?

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Haak

So they're killing their own citizens as a show of force? I really struggle to understand the reasoning there. In any case, wouldn't it simply be enough for the coalition to maintain this supposed media blackout?

Yeah that's what they've been doing holding back the Reporters from giving them free reign, although Frolaytia couldn't completely kick them out because a certain politician in charge wants the media attention for his election.

With an Object attack, it's probably harder to hide the casualty of 13000 civilians though.

Originally Posted by Haak

But isn't the coalition doing that anyway?

I think he wants more to be done and sooner. You know the type- Armchair Generals and all that.

Originally Posted by Haak

That doesn't make sense to me either to be honest. Why does Oceania not have a media outlet of its own? Even ISIS is capable of posting videos and tweeting shit.

You'll definitely get a wider coverage with a global media like CNN reporting.

Originally Posted by Haak

But how would they successfully spin such an unbelievable narrative into the media on the coalition's side? Why would the coalition worry about that at all?

"If you haven't butted in to our business, this wouldn't happen!" You know there would be people who would buy that.

Honestly Oceania is probably desperate. They know they have no way to win in a straight up fight so they're resorting to every play in the book no matter how long a shot.

And you're right that the Coalition probably isn't all too concern, this actually would accelerate the plan by forcing the Object out of hiding sooner, and you could tell by their orders that they're willing to wait and risk the lives of civilians just to take a shot at the 0.5th. Frolaytia on the other hand, most likely would have preferred to take it slow and methodical to avoid as many civilian casualties as possible.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Haak

So they're killing their own citizens as a show of force? I really struggle to understand the reasoning there. In any case, wouldn't it simply be enough for the coalition to maintain this supposed media blackout?

But isn't the coalition doing that anyway?

That doesn't make sense to me either to be honest. Why does Oceania not have a media outlet of its own? Even ISIS is capable of posting videos and tweeting shit.

But how would they successfully spin such an unbelievable narrative into the media on the coalition's side? Why would the coalition worry about that at all?

Ignorant citizens in safe countries easily grow impatient with their military leaders when an injustice is occurring somewhere. Sewax is one of them.

The coalition is going to take care of the dictatorship no doubt about it, but it takes time. To people like Sewax, it looks like they're doing nothing but arguing among themselves and just loitering about when lives are at stake. So he took matters into his own hands and killed several soldiers to try and spark conflict where there would have been anyways.

Oceania is just one country against 4 superpowers and it's hated by everyone. Those soldiers were already planning on slaughtering the village, but now that some of their soldiers have been killed they look weak so now they'll "hunt for the killer" by choosing a "suspicious" village and slaughter them all.

Would you support your military leader if you knew their invasion would instigate the dictatorship to kill innocent citizens?

[ReddyRedWolf]

It's called false flag attack people. Attack your own blame it on another party.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Haak

So they're killing their own citizens as a show of force? I really struggle to understand the reasoning there.

Those folks out there in the village are basically undesirables from their governments point of view to begin with.

But isn't the coalition doing that anyway?

They are.

But the coalition is going slow and steady to reduce casualties. Sewax thinks they aren't doing enough, and decided to take things into his own hands.

That doesn't make sense to me either to be honest. Why does Oceania not have a media outlet of its own? Even ISIS is capable of posting videos and tweeting shit.

Military states and internationally reputable news organizations don't really mix well.

Using your ISIS example, if their media arm came out with a story trying to spin their atrocities as their fault of the enemies, do you think anyone, aside from their supporters would take it seriously?

Preferably they need a foreign news organization to make their plan work.

But how would they successfully spin such an unbelievable narrative into the media on the coalition's side?

Never underestimate the power of spin. The right story, with the right pictures, espousing the right opinions can really change stuff.

Why would the coalition worry about that at all?

No one likes bad press.

[OH&S]

rina-satou-joins-heavy-object-tv-anime-cast

[Heir of the Void]

I just want to say that the beginning squence of episode 7 was awesome, and could have served as the first sequence of the show much better than the first five minutes of episode 1.

Also, after reading the above, from either a military or geopolitical standpoint, the Oceania plan make no Goddamn sense. It's another example of Kamachi trying to be clever while lacking an understanding of the subject in question. I have to wonder if he actually knows less about geopolitics than he does physics and, if so, how the hell that's possible. It's like saying that the magnitude of the distance between two points is less than zero.

EDIT: Also, why do they need an Object do massacre civilians? Have they never heard of Improved Conventional Munitions?

[Takeshi senpai]

So let me get this straight, correct me if I am wrong:
Oceania was going to kill of the locals for their own plan, while the coalition basically launched an operation to stop them to gain good press, since they are ending a dictatorship.
The politician is using it to gain good press for the upcoming elections.
Oceania wanted to kill the civilians and blame the coalition for invading, causing them to take extreme measures, so that the coalition would lose support when their own reporters reveal the massacre, which is more credible, which would force the invasion to stop to prevent the massacre of citizens.
The coalition knows this, so they wanted to prevent the reporters from butting in and take it slow and steady to minimize casualties, since Oceania wouldn't massacre their people without the reporters, but the politician wanted the reporters to be around, which slows down the operation.
Seewax thinks it is too slow, thus sniped the soldiers to escalate the situation to quicken the situation, so that he could report on the war with objects. He wanted to do so to report on the injustice that he believes is hidden by the military in the so called "clean" war between objects.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by OH&S

rina-satou-joins-heavy-object-tv-anime-cast

Well, I'm starting to see a pattern.

Originally Posted by Heir of the Void

I just want to say that the beginning squence of episode 7 was awesome, and could have served as the first sequence of the show much better than the first five minutes of episode 1.

Also, after reading the above, from either a military or geopolitical standpoint, the Oceania plan make no Goddamn sense. It's another example of Kamachi trying to be clever while lacking an understanding of the subject in question. I have to wonder if he actually knows less about geopolitics than he does physics and, if so, how the hell that's possible. It's like saying that the magnitude of the distance between two points is less than zero.

If you consider the context it's obviously an act of desperation.

Originally Posted by Heir of the Void

EDIT: Also, why do they need an Object do massacre civilians? Have they never heard of Improved Conventional Munitions?

Probably not as headline catching.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Yeah that's what they've been doing holding back the Reporters from giving them free reign, although Frolaytia couldn't completely kick them out because a certain politician in charge wants the media attention for his election.

With an Object attack, it's probably harder to hide the casualty of 13000 civilians though.



I think he wants more to be done and sooner. You know the type- Armchair Generals and all that.




You'll definitely get a wider coverage with a global media like CNN reporting.



"If you haven't butted in to our business, this wouldn't happen!" You know there would be people who would buy that.

Anachronistic, I think, but that would make Oceania a Syria analogue. Though I suppose Syria's case isn't new, just the latest in a series.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Well he's not a soldier, and he technically didn't intentionally kill civilians or even planned it.

He fought while not wearing a uniform. I'm pretty sure it's a war crime (because it gives the other side a reason to go after civilians).

[~Yami~]

ah... the cliffhanger will kill me for sure...

Well, I kinda get the pattern from Oceania.. So by using mass media power, they intended to frame allied forces as the reason why they kill their own people.. and also to show off their power
Yes.. it is a very common plan from a dictator
Aside from Qwenthur's denseness, both Qwenthur and Havia are pretty awesome in this episode
Figuring out trap possibility, refusing to take the reporter, and finally saving Frolaytia and Milinda in their own way. In the end, they really treated Frolaytia not as superior but as 18-years old girl who get tossed into responsible position... so manly.. respect!

I think G-cup onee-san would be the one who rushed to assist Qwenthur and Havia. Baby Magnum would stay at the decoy point since she could snipe it from faraway

Hype for the next episode

[Patriot's Blade]

was expecting Havia & Qwent to also rant on why they were not given power suits that may help their giant ball monster slaying antics in the first place as they saw them as episode 7, & not sure Qwent losing his phone that may contain his personal data might cause trouble in the future or just make it an I-Phone ad.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Anachronistic, I think, but that would make Oceania a Syria analogue. Though I suppose Syria's case isn't new, just the latest in a series.

My first immediate thought is North Korea, given their history of crazy demands and spinning.

Originally Posted by Patriot's Blade

was expecting Havia & Qwent to also rant on why they were not given power suits that may help their giant ball monster slaying antics in the first place as they saw them as episode 7, & not sure Qwent losing his phone that may contain his personal data might cause trouble in the future or just make it an I-Phone ad.

Power suits probably wouldn't really help them much if they're up against Objects. I mean assuming standard sci-fi power suits, it would most likely not be enough to protect them from an Object's firepower nor would it be enough to punch through their armor. I wager the power suits are more anti-personnel or light vehicles in their function.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Never underestimate the power of spin. The right story, with the right pictures, espousing the right opinions can really change stuff.

No one likes bad press.

Yeah, but my point is that Oceania would need to convince the media on the opposing countries side, and I don't see how that would work. Especially when the only example of a reporter we get is one who tries to spin it against Oceania. In such a situation the coalition should be more than capable of spinning it against Oceania especially if they already knew in advance that it was going to happen.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Yeah that's what they've been doing holding back the Reporters from giving them free reign, although Frolaytia couldn't completely kick them out because a certain politician in charge wants the media attention for his election.

With an Object attack, it's probably harder to hide the casualty of 13000 civilians though.

I think he wants more to be done and sooner. You know the type- Armchair Generals and all that.

You'll definitely get a wider coverage with a global media like CNN reporting.

"If you haven't butted in to our business, this wouldn't happen!" You know there would be people who would buy that.

Honestly Oceania is probably desperate. They know they have no way to win in a straight up fight so they're resorting to every play in the book no matter how long a shot.

And you're right that the Coalition probably isn't all too concern, this actually would accelerate the plan by forcing the Object out of hiding sooner, and you could tell by their orders that they're willing to wait and risk the lives of civilians just to take a shot at the 0.5th. Frolaytia on the other hand, most likely would have preferred to take it slow and methodical to avoid as many civilian casualties as possible.

I guess that's good enough, but it does feel like the show is consistently reliant on a lot of vague and poorly defined plot elements like what the media is like and the political opinion among civilians back home. I felt the same thing last episode about how civilians view the supposed "clean wars" compared to this "humanitarian intervention" and before that it was the whole "white flag culture" issue. That's not a big deal really: I'm not expecting any clever politics and what it's given so far is reasonable enough, but the way it's presented is frustratingly difficult to follow and that's even when they make it a focus.

Plus Froyltia's interrogation still felt like it was trying justify letting the military do what it wants without media scrutiny and that just rubbed me off the wrong way.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Haak

Yeah, but my point is that Oceania would need to convince the media on the opposing countries side, and I don't see how that would work. Especially when the only example of a reporter we get is one who tries to spin it against Oceania. In such a situation the coalition should be more than capable of spinning it against Oceania especially if they already knew in advance that it was going to happen.

They would probably release some kind of statement as well.

If nothing else they would just make it so that the more the Coalition remains in Oceania, the more civilians will die. That might be their angle.

Originally Posted by Haak

I guess that's good enough, but it does feel like the show is consistently reliant on a lot of vague and poorly defined plot elements like what the media is like and the political opinion among civilians back home. I felt the same thing last episode about how civilians view the supposed "clean wars" compared to this "humanitarian intervention" and before that it was the whole "white flag culture" issue. That's not a big deal really: I'm not expecting any clever politics and what it's given so far is reasonable enough, but the way it's presented is frustratingly difficult to follow and that's even when they make it a focus.

Well I don't blame you, I remember I had problems following the politics in Classroom Crisis as well... And that's went even deeper than this lol.

Originally Posted by Haak

Plus Froyltia's interrogation still felt like it was trying justify letting the military do what it wants without media scrutiny and that just rubbed me off the wrong way.

Hmmm I don't think it was presented as any particular absolute moral judgement, after all Frolaytia is speaking from a point of view that her job would be easier if it wasn't for troublesome politics and media.

More importantly unlike with GATE, I don't think the military as a whole is portrayed as "Good Guy Heroes".

[Heir of the Void]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Power suits probably wouldn't really help them much if they're up against Objects. I mean assuming standard sci-fi power suits, it would most likely not be enough to protect them from an Object's firepower nor would it be enough to punch through their armor. I wager the power suits are more anti-personnel or light vehicles in their function.

Well, the ACS might disagree. Their standard assault rifle can overpenetrate a slightly-future MBT longways, and they have the rate-of-fire and targeting precision to, if nothing else, destroy all of the Object's weapons. 'Bluring' with ECM and the holographic camo suite would counter Char's trick of dodging based on muzzle position, and their grav-gun projectiles are fast enough that dodging normally isn't going to work.

But in any case, the Australian stragety is... bad. Words fail to describe how little sense it makes. It's based on such advanced logic and reasoning that I'm not sure how to explain what's wrong with it. It's like trying to fight a Gelatinous Cube with a spear.