(CR) White Album (All Episodes, 1-26)

[Zippicus]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, that is one of the key themes of the show, is it not? How people (sometimes well-intentioned, sometimes not) do irrational things that run totally counter to their stated objectives and mess everything up in the process. This story is basically a study in dysfunctional relationships. The main difference between this show and "real life" is that here they're exaggerating the dichotomy so that the disconnect between goal and action is more apparent. In doing so, they're asking the viewer to decide whether they can rationalize or come to terms with how the character ended up where they're at (are they evil, incompetent, victims of fate, or just messed-up?). I don't think you're necessarily supposed to sympathize with any of the characters, only watch as the chain of bad decisions (and bad timing) continues to drive them further away from their goals (but closer towards their future reality). The challenge of the show is in trying to figure all the characters out (and piece together how their mismatched goals and actions will impact each other).

Which is basically to say, this show is a soap opera -- the characters aren't supposed to be normal or rational, they're supposed to be twisted and messed up so that we can watch their lives unfold with a sort of sick fascination.

Yeah that's pretty much how I see it. I was explaining to someone as to how the show wasn't rational (which is how I got roped back into all this in the first place ). It's not necessarily a bad thing but in this case I think they lay it on a little too thick without really bothering to support it too much. They just toss out a flimsy plot device and call it a wrap. They really could have mitigated a lot of the problems if they weren't so busy being vague. It's not like I hate the show or anything, it's just got some pretty obvious flaws that keep it from going beyond mediocre.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

The way you described the show... Well, I can fit that description on so many series... Pretty much most dramas would fit your description. If the characters were not messing up in the first place, there would not be much of a drama for us to see. And fiction in general is usually exaggerated, but hey, with the wild stories always going on in this Earth, anything is plausible.

Well, no, I wasn't describing the plot, I was describing a theme. Perhaps it would have been more apt to call it a "central focus". You're right that all stories feature obstacles to accomplishing objectives (that is the essence of "plot"), but that's just to help advance the story which usually has some other broader theme -- perhaps about growing up, or the difference between a crush and true love, or grabbing on to what's important to you, or whatever. The drama serves to point towards the central theme. But in this show, I would argue that observing the characters in the dichotomy of their behaviour is one of the primary focuses of the story, and a centerpiece of the show's ultimate message. In other words, this show is as much about the obstacles as it is about overcoming the obstacles. Most stories are more about the latter, and I think that's a pretty big difference.

In other words, the purpose is, at least in part, "understanding the complex chain reaction that brought about the final result". To do that, we have to study and observe all the characters to understand each person's individual contribution to the situation.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

In my opinion, the key theme of this show is not the idea that people mess up in fufilling their objectives, but rather that people cannot seem to find an understanding between themselves. We have seen this with several characters, where their interests, desires, and actions are often in conflict with each other. For example Misaki spends time with Touya because she likes him, but Touya spends time with her because he is triyng to kill time. When they finally understood each other, the confession episode, the relationship pretty much blew up in their faces.

I think we're basically saying the same thing -- coming to terms with the dichotomy between stated goal and action taken, and piecing together the way these conflicts collide and settle. We're observing the total story at a macro level, but this same principle applies as we study each character at a micro level.

So, maybe I'm just missing the linchpin here, but I think we're largely saying the same thing in the end.

Edit: The more I think about it, the more I think that I'm not explaining it very well. So perhaps I should just shelve this for now until I can figure out another way of putting it that makes more sense. What I'm basically trying to get at is that this show is keeping us at a distance from the characters so we can observe the situations, whereas most dramas try to make us sympathize with the characters so we can learn a lesson. I'm sure that this show will present us with a lesson to be learned, but it's a lesson as an observer, and not so much as a vested participant-by-proxy (since I don't think any of us can really relate to these characters; the change in time period is to help accentuate that disconnect). Does that make any more sense, or am I just making things worse?

[be0wulf]

This anime needs to start making some sense soon

[Mentar]

Hmmm... I don't think I understand you correctly...

Originally Posted by golthin

1. Akira had told Misaki that he was not going to go because he can't stand seeing her sitting with Touya.

Why would this be a lie? In fact, I almost want to commend Akira for speaking the truth here. When he heard that Touya would be going too, Akira passed - that's how I interpreted it. "If Touya goes, then I'm not going!"

2. Akira was planning to go to the concert to watch the show Alone. (he lied to Misaki)

Er, why? He is interested in spending time with Misaki, not watching Yuki's concert - and Yuki will only care about Touya's presence, not Akira's. Keep in mind that he ripped up his ticket openly in front of Misaki - had he been lying to her and planning to go alone, he wouldn't have shown that to her (it would have branded him a liar).

3. Misaki tells Akira that she is not going, because it is boring to go without Akira, Akira repeats the reason he is not going.

And this is where I actually have to award brownie points to Misaki. At least she's trying to give Akira a fair chance, so she waives her concert visit to free herself up for an Akira christmas date. I thought that this was a really nice gesture.

4. Misaki was planning to go with Touya, but she found out that Touya doesn't have a ticket. She gave touya her ticket and lied to Akira about the reason she was not going. When Akira realize that Misaki is free Xmas eve, he takes the ticket that he was not supposed to have on front of Misaki and tore up.

Misaki was planning to go with BOTH Akira and Touya. But then she found out that Touya had no ticket AND that Akira would not come when Touya was around anyway, so she decided to kill two birds with one stone: By skipping the concert, she could free up her own ticket and enable Touya to go with it, and she could advance her relationship with Akira by going on a christmas date with him instead of leaving him alone. Keep in mind, she only sent him her ticket AFTER she changed plans for christmas. If anything, you could criticize her for not mentioning that Touya probably wouldn't be there since he had no ticket, but after all - that could change.

As selfish and wacky the girls around Touya might be every once in a while, they ARE kind and good friends. I mean hell, Mana got a ticket for him even though she doesn't believe a word about Yuki, Haruka gave him her own one without even identifying herself (if he hadn't accidentally seen her, he wouldn't have known), and Misaki was giving up hers aswell. Each of those actions made me like the girls more - which is what I direly need ^_^;

[Yu Ominae]

I could barely contain my grin when the more Touya wanted Yayoi to go away, the more he wants her to "do" him.

[golthin]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Misaki was planning to go with BOTH Akira and Touya. But then she found out that Touya had no ticket AND that Akira would not come when Touya was around anyway, so she decided to kill two birds with one stone: By skipping the concert, she could free up her own ticket and enable Touya to go with it, and she could advance her relationship with Akira by going on a christmas date with him instead of leaving him alone. Keep in mind, she only sent him her ticket AFTER she changed plans for christmas. If anything, you could criticize her for not mentioning that Touya probably wouldn't be there since he had no ticket, but after all - that could change.

I wonder if Misaki is ready to cut all ties with touya, because that will be the only way she can stay with Akira. the guy is a time bomb ready to explode when it comes to Touya being around Misaki. If there is not a break up between Akira and Misaki in episode 13, we are going to see a lot of drama in season 2 about Misaki wanting to keep the friendship with Touya and Akira becoming more obsessed about Touya stealing his Misaki-senpai! You know what would be a great scene for season 2? Misaki and Akira having their first sex and during the Climax, Misaki calls Touya's name

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Edit: The more I think about it, the more I think that I'm not explaining it very well. So perhaps I should just shelve this for now until I can figure out another way of putting it that makes more sense. What I'm basically trying to get at is that this show is keeping us at a distance from the characters so we can observe the situations, whereas most dramas try to make us sympathize with the characters so we can learn a lesson. I'm sure that this show will present us with a lesson to be learned, but it's a lesson as an observer, and not so much as a vested participant-by-proxy (since I don't think any of us can really relate to these characters; the change in time period is to help accentuate that disconnect). Does that make any more sense, or am I just making things worse?

Well I am sure that just as there are people who don't sympathize with the characters, there are those who do (I myself feel that I do care for the characters, some more than others judging on their actions). I don't get why this series is getting so much slap for having a cast of emotionally screwed up people but I guess tastes vary a lot on that part, like how I feel that Toradora is a load of melodrama
And hey, aren't I already participating by putting thought into their actions?

[Gohan78]

I found at least a couple of instances where Touya is directly contradicting his own stated goals.

With Misaki:
Stated goal = "pair up Misaki with my best friend Akira"
Episode 2: he calls Misaki to tell her that Akira made a cheesecake for her, but ends up speaking of trivial matters.
Episode 9: after Misaki indirectly confesses to him, he immediately takes the opportunity to confess back to her, even though he was still trying to set her up with Akira five minutes before.

With Yayoi:
He changed his mind at least 3 times in the last episode only.
Touya to Rina: "It's just a ride" = "my little affair with Yayoi-san isn't important"
The following night he invites Yayoi to his apartment for the first time and makes her "his goddess". He brings their relationship to the next level, contradicting what he said to Rina.
After listening to Yuki's letter, he seems to want to break up with Yayoi.
But the slut needs just a little teasing and he immediately gives in to her seduction.
Man, this guy is pathetic!

[SaintessHeart]

Well basically I think we are all being childish by flinging cowpats at the show and none of them is really hitting Touya. Somehow I have a feeling that it will end up much better in the second season, and it seems that this show is a reversed dimension of Boys Over Flowers.

The base of the storyline is good, the music is bloody damn nice (Maiochiru Yuki You Ni is probably one of the most nostalgic songs I have ever heard) and Mana Mizuki is cute. I think it should turn out good too.

I shall claim Mana the tsunloli as my next waifu! xD

[golthin]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Well basically I think we are all being childish by flinging cowpats at the show and none of them is really hitting Touya. Somehow I have a feeling that it will end up much better in the second season, and it seems that this show is a reversed dimension of Boys Over Flowers.

The base of the storyline is good, the music is bloody damn nice (Maiochiru Yuki You Ni is probably one of the most nostalgic songs I have ever heard) and Mana Mizuki is cute. I think it should turn out good too.

I shall claim Mana the tsunloli as my next waifu! xD

I don't blame Touya, the guy has been placed in an impossible situation. He was ready to go for Misaki, but Misaki just couldn't betray Yuki. He knows he can't get nothing from Rina but friendship,
so he went for the next thing, free and unattached sex with Yayoi.

[prototype_sky]

Originally Posted by golthin

I don't blame Touya, the guy has been placed in an impossible situation. He was ready to go for Misaki, but Misaki just couldn't betray Yuki. He knows he can't get nothing from Rina but friendship,
so he went for the next thing, free and unattached sex with Yayoi.

Totally agreed here that his actions is on par with most men. The main thing he's guilty of was trying to hold on to Yuki by not clearly ending it if he believed it was going south or giving her an ultimatium to save the relationship.

[Sinestra]

This episode hurt in me ways i didnt think possible but as always managed to keep the smallest tiniest essence of curiosity burning in me to how this train wreck will end up. I once again face the problem of not caring about the characters and instead focus on breaking them down instead and thinking of the best self help support group i couldnt get them into.

Yayoi is showing her colors very vividly and its still a ice cold blue but she is proving some of my theories correct. Rina was spot on about her and honestly im starting to think now that Yayoi will face a hurtin like no other once the shit hits the fan and Yuki finds out. How could Yuki continue to work with her after learning the truth? I think Yayoi actually looks forward to their little tryst now she has not picked up a book in ages. Till its confirmed i am going to continue thinking that have not had sex even with that push down scene until its confirmed

Touya WELL Touya im going to skip him for now for fear of ranting and there is no need for that right now.

Yuki seemed like a light bulb went off in her head but does she really understand what her actions have done? I dont think so its not all her fault but she shares a piece of it.

Rina actually made matters worse by firing Touya because now there is no supervision although i think Touya is trying to ween himself of the foribidden fruit that is Yayoi but will he be able to do it? I thought yes for a while with Rina's help but now im not so sure.

AKira needs a hug from mommy suck it up lifes not fair your tears only make me feel sorry for anyone who has to be around. Hes the black vortex or emo who just sucks away your happiness if you get to close. He needs to way in on whats wrong with him and acknowledge that hes a coward and could not even confess to the girl for 5 years thats not Touyas problem that his problem. Fake stabbing with a prop knife WTF this is not single white female.

oh well last episode of the first half should prove to be somwhat amusing due to the sheer shock value.

[DragoZERO]

Ack... so many replies as I sleep. At least it was only one page this time, haha.

Originally Posted by Zippicus

Sure I'll toss out a couple ideas of what I mean.

Yayoi, goal = help Yuki, actions = hurt Yuki.
Touya, goal = relationship with Yuki, actions = everything but relationship with Yuki.
Misaki, goal = relationship with Touya, action = reject Touya.
Rina is a little more complicated where Yuki is concerned, about half of the things she does help Yuki, the other half hurt.
Haruka goal = Oniichan, actions = lolwut.



Some of that is fine, and even expected, but they kind of overdid that aspect (most likely for the drama). They could have even mitigated some of that by rationalizing, but that is a pretty tall order to fill

Umm... all of those goals have changed through the series.

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

I shall claim Mana the tsunloli as my next waifu! xD

How is a 17 year old girl a loli?

[Zippicus]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Umm... all of those goals have changed through the series.

Just out of curiosity, care to explain that ? The only one that's made any attempt to change has been Misaki, and that really only looks like a surface change. Yayoi is still "helping" Yuki, and has been for quite a few episodes now. Touya is still trying to keep his relationship with Yuki intact, he was even discussing it with Yayoi while he was fooling around with her. Rina's stance hasn't changed since her introduction except that now she's pretty pissed at Touya rather than being friendly.

[serenade_beta]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

I shall claim Mana the tsunloli as my next waifu! xD

>_< You already have too many waifus. Claim denied! She's already mine~Fuhihi

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

How is a 17 year old girl a loli?

Loli is not the age, but appearance.

[SageGaiGar]

Originally Posted by serenade_beta

>_< You already have too many waifus. Claim denied! She's already mine~Fuhihi



Loli is not the age, but appearance.

Mmm legal lolis (Younger than they look, but older) (^_^)
(FTW)

Of course *too* young looking (and acting) is creepy.

Anyway, interesting to see most of us coming together on this show. It's a soap opera, it's sadistically comical. And it features Robert Browning('s poetry) apparently.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

Well I am sure that just as there are people who don't sympathize with the characters, there are those who do (I myself feel that I do care for the characters, some more than others judging on their actions). I don't get why this series is getting so much slap for having a cast of emotionally screwed up people but I guess tastes vary a lot on that part, like how I feel that Toradora is a load of melodrama
And hey, aren't I already participating by putting thought into their actions?

Well, first off, I was really tired last night, so looking back I really don't think what I said made as much sense on paper as it did in my sleepy head. I wasn't trying to slap the series for having a cast of screwed-up people; actually, I think the fact they're all screwed up is the basis for the show. And being engaged by putting thought into their action is, I think, exactly what the show is trying to make us do. So please don't take my comment as a slam against the show, or the people who like it -- I think the show is just fine the way it is!

I guess what I'm trying to get at, in not so many words, is that most anime dramas want you to sympathize with all the characters, and think "really, they're all good people trapped in difficult circumstances". In this show, there are a lot more shades of grey to that; people aren't necessarily "purely good" or "purely evil", even though they're all still trapped in difficult circumstances. I feel like (and this may just be me), they're asking us as an audience to decide whether the characters' actions are justified given their circumstances, and to come to our own conclusions. And because there are so many shades of grey involved, there are no right answers. One person may find a character to be totally sympathetic, while another may find their actions to be totally unreasonable, and that's why this show generates the sort of discussion we're having.

So, anyway, please don't feel like I'm slaming the show. The conversation we should really be having instead is how you feel about the characters, their actions, and whether or not you think it's justified given their circumstances. An attempt to get "into the mind" of the characters. I think if we do that, we're engaging the show in a good way.

[Deathkillz]

Sorry Relentless, I wasn't pointing at you in particular but rather in general
And while I respect that you can analyse properly, it feels that some others aren't putting so much "effort" and are simply labeling the entire thing as being flat/boring/crap etc.

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I guess what I'm trying to get at, in not so many words, is that most anime dramas want you to sympathize with all the characters, and think "really, they're all good people trapped in difficult circumstances". In this show, there are a lot more shades of grey to that; people aren't necessarily "purely good" or "purely evil", even though they're all still trapped in difficult circumstances. I feel like (and this may just be me), they're asking us as an audience to decide whether the characters' actions are justified given their circumstances, and to come to our own conclusions. And because there are so many shades of grey involved, there are no right answers. One person may find a character to be totally sympathetic, while another may find their actions to be totally unreasonable, and that's why this show generates the sort of discussion we're having.

This is all and good, but when does this openendedness become lack of direction. This my problem with the show and really a 6month break is really not going to make it any easier following the show. Theres a fine line between openeded, and lack of direction and at times it feels like whoever is walking the damn rope is really just barely balancing. Again I'm not going to pass judgement till I see it all but as of now I don't really care for the characters, other than Akira is a total twat, but other than that the apathy that fills me when I watch this show just makes me want to bash out my brains. I just feel that if touya turned out to be a schizo, or the director was a schizo i could probably watch the show with more easy. I mean really there are moments where everything in the damn show clicks... the water color stills, the music the ambience and then there are moments of pure crap ie, touya crying and yayoi licking his tears... or haruka clawing at touyas door to name a few.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

...Theres a fine line between openeded, and lack of direction and at times it feels like whoever is walking the damn rope is really just barely balancing...and then there are moments of pure crap ie, touya crying and yayoi licking his tears... or haruka clawing at touyas door to name a few.

I agree with the "fine line" comment, but I find the tightrope walk involving and enjoyable. I'm not sure the authors are in complete control of their material, but I'm still happy with the ride.

Perhaps that's because I find those moments you describe as "pure crap" to be among the best moments in the show. Things don't have to be exactly realistic to be emotionally true.