2013-08-29, 13:54 | Link #32981 |
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I'm still stumped for the 'whydunnit' of EP3 1st twilight. The most sensible ones are still crazy, and the most plausible ones are still contradictory. And the solution to the 'howdunnit' is the sticking point, because any motive I can think of falls apart with the Shannon/Kanon as an accomplice.
And if "Yasu did it" is your final answer but you're still not done thinking for the day, then come play along with this thought exercise: if you didn't have yandere and wicked witches to hang everything on, who else might have selected these victims, and what reason would they have that Shannon would be willing to support? |
2013-08-29, 14:12 | Link #32982 |
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It happens but only in the volume version. On the magazines it wasn't printed. You've to buy Ep 7 Vol 1 to see it. I've seen photos of it and it's pretty although if I'm not wrong is 4 pages long... It would be interesting if we could have translated scans of it though... maybe it was cut because the dialogues were an extra hint...
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2013-08-30, 01:34 | Link #32983 | |
The True Culprit
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2013-08-30, 02:04 | Link #32984 | ||||
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There are two different ways to read it in my book, (A) It actually was just the start of the mystery game. Nobody actually died, since we never saw anybody actually being killed. Shannon and Kanon get magical death-roses (make-up) applied by Genji, Genji gets put to sleep by Ronove (who is basically him), Kinzo bursts into flames but he's dead anyway, Kumasawa is defeated as Virgilia (which could just be an argumentative defeat), and Gohda's demise isn't even shown. Since the only people actually getting close to the corpses are Kratsuhi and Nanjo, and Eva and Rosa even bring up the idea of a fake murder game to select the next heir, this could very well be completely harmless. Or (B) It was supposed to be just the harmless mystery game but Yasu lost it halfway through when she became uncertain herself and needed to be convinced by Genji to push through and silence the voices of reason (him killing Shannon and Kanon). Kumasawa tried to argue with her to drop the whole act and had to be disposed of as well, and Gohda was then too much of a liability. Quote:
With around 70 pages chapter 1 of EP7 is a good 30 pages longer than all the other chapters and maybe the editor was just suggesting to cut at least the most unnecessary part to make it a little easier to follow. Or it was because the EP6 run was not yet finished and Ryukishi did not want anything to get unnecessarily spoilerific. Anyway, these are the pages: Spoiler for EP7 pages:
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2013-08-30, 04:24 | Link #32985 |
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What happened in the 'real world' is immaterial, since the entirety is a work of fiction and a game of logic, and each arc is it's own puzzle. If you reject any of the constraints required for a logical puzzle, then you don't have a solution. If you question the applicability of the rules or the authenticity of the setting, then you don't have enough trust in the writer to actually seek out the solution.
"Yasu did it" is the easy answer I could've already settled on if I wanted to take my mind off the hook -- it doesn't have to be shoved in my face, I already know where it is. But aside from being too easy with a dissatisfying motive, the fact that any of you could've looked it up online leads me to believe that it's probably wrong. So far, I've managed to construct the means and motive for every other incident without ignoring the Red Rules, so I'm sure it could be done for EP3 1st twilight. |
2013-08-30, 07:21 | Link #32987 | |
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I didn't say it was 'nothing more', but I've already solved the broader mystery, it's just this one piece of the puzzle I can't leave unsolved. A solution here would actually make the the rest of the episode come together cleaner. The red actually is more important than anything else; it's laid out before you with the guarantee that this is solvable under these conditions. The observations of the detective, within that detective's limitations, the instructions given directly to Battler, and the consistency of established characterization are also important. Throwing these out in favor of meandering through unsupported conjecture somewhere outside the scope of the catbox may be fun, but not fruitful.
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2013-08-30, 07:32 | Link #32988 |
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I thought of a theory surrounding the Closed Rooms, if anyone would mind checking and either shutting the door on it or not.
This room is a closed room created from the inside. The seals on the windows are intact, so there can be no escape from there. Of course, there is no way to escape by leaving through the bathroom. ......I'll make it simple. There is no exit to escape from except for this door. However, the chain lock on this door is set. You can unset and reset it all you want, but you can only do so from the inside. Furthermore, you are free to go out through the door, but you cannot leave or escape while the chain lock is unset. Blue Truth: I’ll use the cutters to cut the wire, leaving it long enough to reach the chain lock. I’ll unset the chain lock from the inside. Now, here’s where my trick comes in. I’ll use the ‘wire’ to reset the chain lock, technically from the inside! This is an old classic in the Mystery Genre Knox’s 4th is satisfied because the Wire and Cutters aforementioned aren’t “hard to understand” or of course a drug. Knox’s 8th has been satisfied because the Wire/Cutters have already been foreshadowed. |
2013-08-30, 07:34 | Link #32989 | |
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2013-08-30, 08:23 | Link #32990 | ||
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If they're plans (which it doesn't appear that they are), that suggests the murders were always going to happen, which sort of kills any notion of the culprit just losing control. If they're not, it's sure a funny coincidence... unless of course she's not guilty, which seems to be what Beatrice is implying (and I generally would tend to believe that anyway). Quote:
It feels cognitively dissonant rather than merely uncertain or conflicted. She knows there is more to the story than she has been told, and in ep4 reacts to this properly with empathy and uncertainty. In ep8 she just recognizes the evidence and ignores it. It goes beyond immaturity into outright irrationality. Now maybe that's the point of that Amakusa scene, but Ange at least pretends to be rational most of the time so it strikes me as odd that she isn't at least trying to reconcile the evidence in her head in some fashion; for example, reaching the conclusion that what Beatrice was doing was probably harmless until somebody ruined it, and then making the emotional leap of "it must've been Eva who did that!" At least that logical leap makes sense even if the evidence for Eva's guilt is exactly the same (i.e. nonexistent). Seemingly ignoring Beatrice as an x-factor is just strange. Even if you think Eva did it, you have to account for Beatrice's actions.
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2013-08-30, 11:31 | Link #32991 | |||||||
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The Red is fairly open and there is actually a lot of people you can blame in each Episode, that is not the problem that Umineko is trying to tackle I'd say, it's rather tackling the problem that we are tackling this problem, if not the fact we are treating it as a problem in the first place. Quote:
He says that there have always been 2 kinds of Red truth. One is for states of death, crime scenes and alibis, those that are only applicable to the individual gameboard (examples given are: EP3's death count at the end, EP2's "There are only 5 master keys," and EP4's "Out of the group of 5 people in around Kyrie, Kanon was the first to die. In other words, he was the 9th victim."). The other one is concerned with character types and the number of people on the island, which is Red that commonly stands abreast in all gameboards. He describes this as truth that also flies outside of the catbox and stands beyond doubt and of course non of these two can proclaim anything about the illusion of the witch (examples given are: EP3's "In 1967, in the hidden mansion Kuwadorian, Lady Beatrice existed as a human," as well as "More than 18 people do not exist on Rokkenjima!!" Also EP5's "Natsuhi was all alone there while drinking tea.") And this flows right into your question: Quote:
In EP6 it is more in the background, but fairly clearly hinted at by Dlanor when she asks Erika, what she actually gained by turning all these doubts about her boyfriend into Red Truth. She still had no Red Truth about whether he loved or did not love her, simply a huge assortment of evidence which she used to believe in the truth she wanted to believe in. So she was unloved and betrayed because she wanted to be unloved and betrayed. In EP7 it's Will's whole argument about the heart being equally important and simply searching for truth will get you nowhere. Finally EP8 almost slams it into your face...well if the VN slammed it, the manga pins it to the stakes and shoots it through your skull with a stake-shooting-device X! At least in the manga Battler follows his explanation of Red truth with the words: Quote:
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This would technically go in line with what happens to the epitaph in the stories. It was written as a means to lead the potential next heir, in the best case scenario "Lion", to the hidden gold, but was used as an occult ritual in the stories. Quote:
To a certain degree I think that Banquet of the Golden Witch is to a large degree also Ange's reading of the story, which would explain her jumping in at the end on another level as well. Maybe more than Culprit X I think I should have said that Beatrice for her is Culprit ???. She is fairly sure that it has to be someone among the people who were said to be on the island, she knows that it must have been an inside job, and the person she wants to pin this on the strongest is Eva, and yes, not because she hates Eva for surviving but for surviving instead of her parents. |
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2013-08-30, 13:32 | Link #32992 | |
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Thus, logically, there's something that Individual X was up to that Eva was not clearly connected with. To reconcile this information Ange would need some kind of viable connection. Now, if we look at Banquet, I suppose that we could see one proposal right there in the fantasy text: Beatrice passed on the responsibility for committing all the murders to Eva, and Eva committed them. It's just that interpretation doesn't make any sense and takes no stock of Beatrice or Eva's characterization in prior works, let alone reality. I understand the appeal of hating Eva for Ange and I understand why Eva would not take action of her own initiative to counter any of that hate, but Ange is just throwing out things that are right in front of her and not even bothering to halfassedly explain them away with faulty logic. While I could see that in a character who is at heart fundamentally irrational and prone to just ignoring the facts, Ange is a character who pretends to be rational (even though she very often is not), so it seems like she ought to be at least trying to justify these details to herself in a manner that creates a coherent interpretation of all of the facts. The closest we can get to that is something akin to Banquet, and to an outside observer that's a terribly amateurish interpretation that makes it hard to sympathize with Ange intellectually.
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2013-08-30, 21:18 | Link #32993 | |||
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Honestly, I know Ryukishi wanted an answer that couldn't be copypasted, but once a secure aswer is reached/revealed it can be typed down and copypasted all around the web... you'll just have to write/read more for the answer to be understood. The only things you can't copypast are the things for which there's no answer we can type, like who killed people in Prime. We don't know, we can only speculate but speculation can only get us so far. Though I think it's clear for Ryukishi the whole point of Umineko was to understand Yasu's heart (and maybe the ones of some other characters), not Prime. Quote:
In the manga is shown clearly that in the beginning Ange and Eva's relation wasn't bad but likely the press kept on investigating on the incident and digging up stuffs about all the family. Ange was in pain, she figured out Eva knew something, she heard the press blaming this and that relative, maybe she started being bullied at school and, although she probably in the beginning tried to defend all the Ushiromiya Eva included, she felt uncertain under constant attacks. Likely the first time she went to Eva to ask for 'what had happened' she wanted, more than the truth, reassurance her beloved family didn't do something bad so that she could fight off whoever was saying the contrary. Eva though denied her reassurance. Had she given her a conforting lie maybe Ange would have swallowed it. But Eva at first doesn't lie and do it only later saying she didn't remember. Her words, according to Ange's interpretation became an obvious lie (I don't know, here I would have assumed she 'couldn't tell because she didn't remember' but maybe in Japanese this interpretation doesn't work?) and why Eva might be lying? To cover up for Ange's family or to cover up for herself. And to Ange it had to be she's trying to cover up for herself because the other option is way worse. She attacks Eva and in that she vents her frustration and pain at feeling herself and hre family being attacked. Eva tries to but in the end she answered to 'Ange's fire' making easier for Ange to hate her. So Ange spends years hating Eva because it's convenient and seems logic and now she likely doesn't feel like thinking 'what if I was wrong and I've blamed her for something she didn't do and that hurt deeply her as well?' because this would add guilt to all the unpleasant feelings inside her. It's implied she planned to kill herself at the end of her journey for the truth so she's likely feeling bad enough. She doesn't want to feel worse so 'Eva has to be the culprit and she has to get revenge on her somehow' |
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2013-08-31, 01:29 | Link #32994 | |
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Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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And Ange took this the worst possible way. |
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2013-08-31, 11:43 | Link #32995 | |
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And honestly, I really think she would have done better giving Ange some sort of explanation because I think it's naive to think Ange's going to swallow amnesia, unless one's very good at persuading her that the trauma of her loss caused her retroactive amnesia. Which she is not. She would have done better saying something like: when you're older I'll tell you, for now take my words nor me or your parents would have done on purpose something that we believed wouldn't have been beneficial to you. Which wouldn't be a lie but at the same time wouldn't rule out that Eva will wait for Ange to have grey hair before telling her, or that Eva and Ange's parents wouldn't kill by accident, in self defence or because 'they think the loss of X would improve Ange's life'... or actually because they didn't think at all at the consequences of their gesture or thought that the gold would cheer her up so much she wouldn't realize some relatives were missing. |
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2013-08-31, 13:23 | Link #32996 |
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It may seem far-fetched that Jessica would know about Yasu's multiple personalities if Yasu were actually the culprit; as distant and conflicting as Jessica is with her parents it's still highly doubtful she would forgive their murder. But consider this:
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I read R07's interview with KEIYA, where he actually did say that Gaap was 'just' an embodiment. But this was after stating that because of Virgilia's creation, a connection to Kumasawa was created, as if that were a natural consequence. I can understand why an anthropomorphic personification of an intellectual abstract not native to the board wouldn't have a vessel (ie, Dlanor,) but that doesn't explain the glaring discrepancy in Gaap. It's not like the other fantasy personifications in Yasu's history, all of which had vessels, weren't also symbolic of an abstract. Flauros isn't a good counter-example because she was discarded half-sketched and never integrated into the board. So I have to believe R07 was covering a bit of information crucial to the solution; that Jessica was Gaap, played the role on occasion, and did know Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice's connection with each other. Spoiler:
Last edited by DokEnkephalin; 2013-08-31 at 13:44. Reason: spoiler some stuff, add more spoilery stuff |
2013-08-31, 13:50 | Link #32997 | ||
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Eva says: "I wanted to raise you as the noble daughter of the house Ushiromiya , just like I did with George, bearing the pain and sprinkling in love to protect you、which was my way of giving my best. I believed, this was the atonement I was able to offer to all of them and to you as well. But it didn't reach you, it couldn't since you were still too young. In the end...when I couldn't bear the weight of the truth, the loneliness and the sadness anymore, I abandoned any attempt to mend my relationship with you." And actually Ange says in the much more elaborate "A Reason to Live" chapter in the EP8 manga, "Even in all their attempts, the police was unable to find any solid proof at the time of the incident. By now 12 years have passed from that. Anybody would be able to reveal a truth that a small girl is able to fish out of some people with her sole weapon being a batch of money. I might not be able to reach the truth. And if that happens, then my feeling of "wanting to reach the truth" will fade and vanish in the end. The only thing remaining is my hatred for Eva." Deep down she knows that she has lost sight of finding the truth and that the only thing left driving her is her conviction that Eva is guilty, but she still cannot stop since it is the only thing keeping her alive at all (in her eyes). Quote:
Kanon's name can only be wielded by the owner of said name. No other person can carry this name. |
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2013-08-31, 14:09 | Link #32998 | |
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But they could lie, couldn't they? It's not a mistake if it's intentional. Spoiler:
Both conditionals of the xor premise are satisfied in the conclusion. This is another theme of the story, and the way magic works within the gameboard, and the reason why every fantasy being must have a vessel. Is it fantasy or mystery? The complete mathematician's answer is "yes". There are propositional chains from both conditions that will lead to the same conclusion. EDIT: Just realized the hole in that Blue. Spoiler:
Last edited by DokEnkephalin; 2013-08-31 at 14:39. |
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2013-08-31, 18:31 | Link #32999 | ||
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Sure, maybe, had she been older she would have not fallen so much into desperation but really, would she have let it go? Any adult would see that if Eva doesn't want to talk about it, it's either to protect herself or Ange from an unpleasant truth. Of course one can choose to ignore the question and pretend nothing happened, Eva never lied and it was all an incident but, on the other side, doubt might end gnawing you from inside. Was your aunt the killer and now she's being kind to you to atone or, even worse, to cover up what she did? Or were your parents the ones who did such a horrible thing and everyone is right in blaming them? Eva probably thought Ange would play along with her wishes as obediently as George did but she was really asking too much and not just because Ange was young but because the situation was too big. Although I could accept at first she couldn't think of a way out it seems some time had passed by when their relation took a turn for the worse, a time in which Ange kept asking. Ignoring the problem and hoping she would give up was naive. Eva should have thought to something to tell Ange that would explain things to her in a reassuring way. Eva, even a traumatized, pressured Eva, doesn't seem that naive. The only 'excuse' I can think of was that even thinking at the incident was so painful for her to bear even if she realized ignoring the problem wouldn't make it disappear she simply couldn't come up with a solution. Quote:
Deep down she's probably hoping in a happy truth, like that someone survived and, for some reason, didn't go back to her but at the same time she knows she'll need a miracle for her hope to turn into truth. Ence Bern. Last edited by Daniel E.; 2013-08-31 at 23:53. |
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