[Manga] Chapter 518 Discussion

[solidguy]

Idk why people are complaining about deidara's defeat. This is the first time we've actually seen omoi in battle, so his powers were unknown to us. Its not like it showed him getting wtf pawned by ten ten only to have one week of training and defeat an S-ranked missing nin. For all we know he could be the clouds version of the yellow flash, being an exceptional ninja. And as said somewhere before, the battle was basically 2 on +5 AND they already knew of the his powers AND he was acting cocky like he was unkillable because ummmmm HE WAS.

Anyways im expecting that guy who looks like kiba, choji and morpheus had a 3 way to come in and wtf pawn them. Because HIS powers are the unknown.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by solidguy

This is the first time we've actually seen omoi in battle, so his powers were unknown to us. Its not like it showed him getting wtf pawned by ten ten only to have one week of training and defeat an S-ranked missing nin. For all we know he could be the clouds version of the yellow flash, being an exceptional ninja.

1. He's not
2. If he was, that would have been mentioned by now.

[Blaster]

I think a lot of people are overrating S-nins.

Firstly, Deidara and Sasori is a S-nin purely because nobody knew their powers. They are in no way as good as the rest of the ninja in Akatsuki. Look at Chiyo + Sakura vs Sasori. Sasori was obviously at the losing end till he pull out some ridiculous new puppet that Chiyo never expected. That said, Chiyo was clearly the better puppet master. Without his puppets, he is at most a normal jounin.

Deidara capability lies in 2 area, able to outsmart his opponent and throw a big bomb while he's in the air. From his past battles, he has shown nothing except his brilliant brains. In this battle, he didn't bother to use his brains. It is no surprise Omoi can pwn him instantly.

A lot of S nins are really good because they had special ridiculous power that nobody knows. Take away that power, they are at best a jounin level.

This is totally different from Sarutobi vs 1st + 2nd hokage.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

1. He's not
2. If he was, that would have been mentioned by now.

I doubt Solidguy was being completely serious in his allusion, but still he is correct that the lack of knowledge we have concerning Omoi does account for something in the match-ups. If nothing else, people tend to forget that Omoi is one of Kirabi's personal apprentices, and while that could mean nothing, it is more likely to mean a hell of a lot ('twould be a little unbelievable that the 2nd strongest Shinobi in the Cloud village would "raise" mooks...).

Honestly, while I wish there would have been another chapter of Sasori and Deidara blowing crap up and using alliance ninja as disposable bombs (and for all we know that could still happen), I've always ranked the duo as being on the middle to lower end of the Akatsuki tier system, so this outcome is not unexpected (hell, I even like the outcome), 'tis just a little sooner than expected...

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by james0246

I doubt Solidguy was being completely serious in his allusion

Thank you Mr. Psychic. Even if he was being a little serious, it's still a dumb assertion.

but still he is correct that the lack of knowledge we have concerning Omoi does account for something in the match-ups. If nothing else, people tend to forget that Omoi is one of Kirabi's personal apprentices, and while that could mean nothing, it is more likely to mean a hell of a lot ('twould be a little unbelievable that the 2nd strongest Shinobi in the Cloud village would "raise" mooks...).

Honestly, while I wish there would have been another chapter of Sasori and Deidara blowing crap up and using alliance ninja as disposable bombs (and for all we know that could still happen), I've always ranked the duo as being on the middle to lower end of the Akatsuki tier system, so this outcome is not unexpected (hell, I even like the outcome), 'tis just a little sooner than expected...

Kishi could've spent some time establishing Omoi's (and the rest of the Cloud ninjas' for that matter) strength and abilities, but yeah, pretty much on the nose.

[Frenchie]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Thank you Mr. Psychic. Even if he was being a little serious, it's still a dumb assertion.

There's nothing wrong in being non-confrontational and friendlily talking about a subject. Neither what solid or james said called for this kind of response.
Seriously, why do you feel the need to be a douchebag in every post you make here?

[Kafriel]

Kishi could've spent some time establishing Omoi's (and the rest of the Cloud ninjas' for that matter) strength and abilities

That's the kind of stuff that makes battles drag on and on and ON!In a ninja world, people deserve to get wtfpwn'd by newcomers.

Sasori and Deidara were also working against the disadvantage that everyone knew about their techniques, while they knew nothing about anyone, except that Kankurou was a puppeteer.

This also plays a huge role in the fight, knowing how to turn Deidara's bombing frenzy into a a rain of clay puts him in a hell of a disadvantage against any kind of opponent.

I guess my real problem is the fear that the war will end up like Bleach where the good guys get no real serious casualities the elite squad end up to be useless and Aizen in this case Madara just wtfpwns everyone and trolls people. Except this time instead of dragging on for a year it will be over a couple of weeks.

At the very least someone will be nearly-fatally injured...probably

[DeDe]

Look at Hidan. Scary guy when we first saw him. Then look at the second time Shikamaru fought him. Shikamaru was basically playing with him. He wasn't as scary when you knew his abilities. Kakuzu still had the element of surprise. If they knew his abilities, the Konoha ninja would have prepared for him. He would have looked a lot less impressive.

Pain? Another character defeated by the discovery of his secret. And Naruto only defeated the Pain bodies because the Konoha ninja relayed information they gained while fighting them. Deidara and Konan each have a huge weakness. They can easily be defeated by lightening and oil respectively. Kisame and Sasori were not the same class of ninja without their tools.

What does this all mean? The Akatsuki aren't quite as imposing when their secrets get out or they lose their weapons. There are no Super Saiyans in Naruto...yet. No one character is strong enough to overcome a group of talented and well prepared ninja. Even Itachi will get his arse kicked.

Anyway, this fight isn't over yet. Things have gone way too easy for the Ambush Company. But expect the pattern of the war rookies being impressive to continue. Yes, even Tenten and Ino. The gap between the rookies and the elites has closed.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Kishi could've spent some time establishing Omoi's (and the rest of the Cloud ninjas' for that matter) strength and abilities,

We have seen the top10 ninjas of that village, and raikage's village is assumed to be currently the strongest village. So Omoi is one of the strongest ninjas of the world by definition, no need to show anything since he is a side character. Naruto and Sasuke have surpassed this elite jounin and kage level, so Kishi will not spend too much time showing how a side character who is weak compared to the top main characters is kicking the ass of unnamed jounin level characters. Because the audience does not care about that, some people even complain about this ninja war, they think everything is boring where Naruto or Sasuke are absent. These side charaters are interesting only as team members, when they interact and cooperate with other side characters, that's why they get screen time only together, not individually. Also their actions ultimately are just a preparation for the actions of the main characters.

[ronin myael]

frankly, i want to see a good fight scene with neji in it. it's been a while since i saw him fight. his last good battle was against the sound 5 and that was years ago! shikamaru is getting more exposure in shipuuden than neji and to think kishi made such a big deal in introducing neji's character. he was said to be a genius. such a waste!

[Fran~]

Neji and Hinata will face Neji's dad... i'm almost sure of it.

[milan kyuubi]

Tsunade's fight with Dan will be very interesting I also think this will lead to some romance development in show. Tsunade will probably say to Sakura (maybe some others girls as well) to take every chance they got, because you never know when you will die.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by DeDe

Look at Hidan. Scary guy when we first saw him. Then look at the second time Shikamaru fought him. Shikamaru was basically playing with him. He wasn't as scary when you knew his abilities. Kakuzu still had the element of surprise. If they knew his abilities, the Konoha ninja would have prepared for him. He would have looked a lot less impressive.

Deidara and Sasori's power was nerfed, that's for sure. Still, if Kabuto had killed all their personalities I'd say this fight would be much more difficult for the alliance right now. The practical invincibility given by Edo Tensei more than makes up for the weakness. Sai's friendship fatality and Kankurou's "you suck now" guilt speech are what's winning this battle.

I'm wondering how Kishi's going to handle Kakuzu. Since it seems like the summons only have their natural physical abilities, Kakuzu shouldn't have the hearts and the element jutsu. Of course, I guess that doesn't mean he couldn't stock up on some before he goes into battle.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

We have seen the top10 ninjas of that village, and raikage's village is assumed to be currently the strongest village. So Omoi is one of the strongest ninjas of the world by definition, no need to show anything since he is a side character.

I wouldn't go that far. Cloud is considered to be possibly the strongest village simply because they've been aggressively building their military, not because their ninja actually that much stronger compared to everyone else. Omoi was impressive, but he had the back up of an entire military unit and knowledge about the enemy. To me, his performance wasn't incredible feat of strength, it just showed good training and quick wits.

As for people saying his strength was never hinted at, did they not see the fight against Sakura, Naruto and Sai?

[james0246]

^Naruto most impressed me in the little exchange between Team Samui and the Team 7. Can't wait to see more of Team Samui though...

That reminds me, wasn't there a poster a many months back that argued that Karui was the strongest because she believed she did destory Konoha with a pebble?

Originally Posted by DeDe

Yes, even Tenten and Ino. The gap between the rookies and the elites has closed.

Kakuzu v. Ino is the next fight...

Originally Posted by milan kyuubi

Tsunade's fight with Dan will be very interesting I also think this will lead to some romance development in show. Tsunade will probably say to Sakura (maybe some others girls as well) to take every chance they got, because you never know when you will die.

I somewhat doubt Tsunade and Dan will fight. She should be in the most fortified location, planning with the other Kages, so Dan attacking seems a bit impossible. Shizune v. Dan, though, sounds very likely.

A Tsunade v. Orochimaru and Jiraiya could be possible. Or a Tsunade v. other Hokage (if such a battle is possible). But a Tsunade v. Dan just doesn't make sense...

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

I wouldn't go that far. Cloud is considered to be possibly the strongest village simply because they've been aggressively building their military, not because their ninja actually that much stronger compared to everyone else. Omoi was impressive, but he had the back up of an entire military unit and knowledge about the enemy. To me, his performance wasn't incredible feat of strength, it just showed good training and quick wits.

I think you misunderstood my point, i said that there is no need to prove anything because Omoi is among the strongest ninjas by definition. Cloud has a very strong military, and Kishi shows us less than a dozen characters, those who are near the raikage. Doesn't that mean that they are among the strongest? Kishi would not bother introducing anyone who is not at least elite jounin level at the time when Naruto and Sasuke are already beyond kage level. Of course his performance was not that impressive yet, but we have seen only a small part of Omoi's abilities.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

As for people saying his strength was never hinted at, did they not see the fight against Sakura, Naruto and Sai?

I wouldn't call that a fight

Of course this great ninja war will show the leveling up of many rookies, i expect that people like Neji and a lot of others will show us their new abilities and there will often be complaints about how could they power up so much. The first to see was Kankuro, he is now much stronger than he was when he almost died against Sasori, by the end of the war he will be seen as the strongest puppet master and be one of sand's elite jounins. I expect the same from Neji, Lee and many others. For a long time Kishi was focusing on Naruto and Sasuke, but now he will show us all of them, for example this is the time for Neji surpassing even the head of the hyuuga clan.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Cloud has a very strong military, and Kishi shows us less than a dozen characters, those who are near the raikage. Doesn't that mean that they are among the strongest?

Nah. That's like assuming Sakura's one of the strongest ninja in the story because she studied directly under Kakashi and Tsunade. Omoi being pupil of Killer Bee and associating with the Raikage doesn't automatically place in him in the top tier of the ninja world. Not by a long shot. But that doesn't mean he's not strong. We can see from his worries about the war that Omoi's still relatively green, but a skilled fighter nonetheless.

We're agreeing that Omoi's strength is something that should be completely expected, just for different reasons.

I wouldn't call that a fight

It was just a skirmish. But it demonstrated that Omoi and Karui's fighting ability is nothing to be sneezed at, as they were able to easily get the upper hand on Sai and Sakura as well as hold their own against Naruto. Basically after seeing that, there's no reason to believe either one of them aren't powerful fighters.

Originally Posted by james0246

I somewhat doubt Tsunade and Dan will fight. She should be in the most fortified location, planning with the other Kages, so Dan attacking seems a bit impossible. Shizune v. Dan, though, sounds very likely.

I think there will be some type of confrontation between Tsunade and Dan (not necessarily a fight). Dan is Shizune's brother, but his main significance in the story was always as Tsunade's lover not Shizune's sibling.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

think there will be some type of confrontation between Tsunade and Dan (not necessarily a fight). Dan is Shizune's brother, but his main significance in the story was always as Tsunade's lover not Shizune's sibling.

But Tsunade has already overcome her emotional problems stemming from Dan's death, and even moved on to Jiraiya (which is another good reason for Jiraiya to appear). This would be a great opportunity to give Shizune, a character with little definition, some actual shape and form (besides her TonTon shtick).

[matsunaga_hisahide]

As everyone has allready mentioned:

Shin was the only one of that group that continuesly mentioned, that he´s controlled and that he doesn´t want to do that. A soul is the strongest force we human supposedly have to offer, so it being hit by such heavy emotions and memories, can easily overthrow a summoning jutsu, by a guy, who probably allready used up a huge amount of chakra.

Sasori is nothing anymore. He´s helpless. He´s not an offensive fighter like Naruto or Sasuke, he doesn´t have any jutsus besides his puppet controlling techniques. It´s like a sword fighter or gunfighter with a sword or a gun. What´s he supposed to do?

And Deidara just had a weak match up. With Shin still fighting against him being controlled, a useless Sasori at his side, a Lightning user no one new about, a shinobi from his old village who knows everything about him on the other side...he couldn´t have done much.

Still, I´m betting my money on a Tsuchikage vs. Deidara fight, were some revelation is made, seeing as they still talk all high and mighty about Deidara. Maybe he´s his son? Tsuchikage has to die at Deidara´s hands, seeing as it would make for the most interesting choice and Tsuchikage´s granddaughter will defeat Deidara, the one she admired so much.

C´mon Kishi, use your characters better.

[herculan]

Last thing that doesn't make sense to me is something very obvious, that nobody seems to have noticed.

Facts:

-Deidara is an S-Rank Earth(Clay) Element user.
-Kakashi said: '' elements will give you an advantage over certain other elements: Ex. a lightning attack will destroy an earth attack of the same level''.
-Omoi said: '' I know a little about lightning attacks''

so HOW IN GODSNAME.. can someone who claims to know only a little about lightning techniques be strong enough to completely negate the earth element techniques of the strongest earth elemental user in the story at this very moment. When sasuke did it, I was like okay this is believable.. Sad that deidara has such a major weakness and lame that kakashi didn't notice it when fighting him.. BUT I'll accept it.. But Omoi is just really hard to believe.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Nah. That's like assuming Sakura's one of the strongest ninja in the story because she studied directly under Kakashi and Tsunade.

I think that's a bad example. She is one of the main characters, unlike Omoi she can be even weak. Also she's quite strong, remember she and Chiyo beat Sasori.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Omoi being pupil of Killer Bee and associating with the Raikage doesn't automatically place in him in the top tier of the ninja world.

The pupil-teacher lineage in this manga is quite important. Look at how the hokage lineage is all such: 1st/2nd -> 3rd -> 5th and Jiraiya -> 4th -> kakashi -> Naruto/Sasuke. It seems as if you have no chance to become hokage if your sensei was not in this lineage, which means that the parents of all the rookies who were not chosen to be Kakashi's pupils should be very sad

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Not by a long shot. But that doesn't mean he's not strong. We can see from his worries about the war that Omoi's still relatively green, but a skilled fighter nonetheless.

The original issue was if Kishi had to show Omoi fighting strong people to establish his reputation as a strong ninja or not. And i think not, since the lineage of his teachers is so strong and he is in the Cloud's elite, so we can imagine how good he is without watching him beat some boring random ninjas. He's just not that interesting, this can be done in some anime filler instead.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

I think there will be some type of confrontation between Tsunade and Dan (not necessarily a fight). Dan is Shizune's brother, but his main significance in the story was always as Tsunade's lover not Shizune's sibling.

We can assume that Kabuto can summon them whenever he wants until otherwise proven. Zombies cannot be destroyed, so probably even Sai's brother could be resummoned if Kabuto had payed attention. So if Dan is destroyed or disappears that should not prevent Kabuto from summoning him again. If Madara's plan is to teleport away from the war to the kages then Kabuto probably is not so stupid to just continue fighting while Madara collects the 2 demons and disappears. So if Kabuto will follow Madara in some way (reverse summon maybe, if he hid a snake in the turtle for that) he will surely mess up both Madara's and alliance's plans.