Character Discussion - Accelerator

[SmokinFerret88]

It was in the LN section; NT9/10 discussion topic.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

did you even read what i put into the spoilers??
it was explained why he survived that....what from this is plot armor??
and please explain (guys) in which other instances accel has P.A.??
vs touma
vs kihara
vs komaba
vs kakine
vs aiwass
vs magician
vs touma
vs gabriel
vs freshmen
vs trident (i think their was one, the sudden show up of the president)
vs kakine

so far: only one single time...

Here is some plot armor then:

Spoiler for Index anime season 3 to be plot:

He didn't kill LO. Obviously plot armor. That lucky bastard. His life would have been normally been ruined in that case, but he just managed to stop himself in time, even though there was no way the old him would have been to do that, after all of the things that he had done before. This is comparable to Touma to getting up after being punched very hard or having magic used against him. And this is a huge one.

I can continue:

Spoiler for Index anime season 2 plot:

None of the thugs that ever fought Accelerator managed to figure out that if they pulled their punches they could hit him. This never happened, with no one he fought. That's at least a little suspicious if you ask me. But it never happened for some reason, even though he first reflects powers, and I'm guessing if a power also pulled itself before it hit him, the same effect would happen.

I can continue:

Spoiler for Index season 1, Index light novels later speculation, railgun manga Daihasesai arc:

It was estimate it would take 20,000 sisters to get Accelerator to level 6, and that he would be the only level 5 that could be stable if he actually became level 6. However, he only learned how to actually fight when he joined GROUP after he realized he only knew a few tricks since his power made it so easy to beat people not in the true darkness that it didn't take much to beat them, only like 4 tricks or whatever. Also, being the main plan, and Aleister's main pawn he clearly has super plot armor privileges to survive anything, since he has Aleister's support and at least Heaven's Canceller's as well. Given that Accelerator is the entire plan, nothing will happen to him in terms of him dying as long as Aleister is planning to use him, which means he can never lose, and even more so than Touma, because Accelerator is 100% the plan while Touma is only 98% so.

Finally, the biggest point of contention for Accelerator's plot armor is this which makes it obvious he has way more plot armor than Touma does, even considering NT 9.

Spoiler for Index I:

Accelerator like other magicians and espers has supernatural powers, but he has no supernatural strength/resistance, or fighting skills to speak of until later. He never was even punched or hurt once until he was fighting Touma, and unlike ninjas like this, Accelerator doesn't have to use his physical strength to do anything at all. His power is like a cell-phone to a normal teen, they are completely dependent on it, like Mikoto, and they are useless without it. He manages to change later and at least develop gun skills, but he has no time to power up his body when he actually gets hit or punched, so he should be extremely weak. But in the fight against Skill-out when he was in GROUP, when he got punched by someone way more powerful than a normal human, and fell from railings, he still managed to think, and move which is completely doubtful and ridiculous. Whenever Accelerator gets hurt, he should take way more damage than he does like espers in general (except the darkness) since they are physically not strong at all. Mugino is an obvious exception, but she's part of the darkness, and she's rather special as I can note. Accelerator is physically super weak and lanky and doesn't have enough nutrients from the sun and drinks coffee for God's sake because his skin is white. All in all, he should be much weaker in fights, but it is ignored, because he is protecting someone, and because he has Aleister's confidence in whatever he does, so he can't possibly lose in the end.

Now in comparison to Touma... with NT 9 if you really want to complain I want to repeat my POV which is why it makes sense, and with other fights.

Spoiler for NT 9 and the light novels in general:

Touma Kamijou is extremely weak and can only win close-up or so by using his fists to punch his opponents, and he has to dodge opponents constantly to win his fights, and he is forced to move a lot and tire and exhaust himself constantly to win even a simple fight. Therefore, he physically should be extremely strong with very strong muscles, and reflexes in addition to his super capacity for precognition because he relies on exercising and recovering to win his fights all of the time, and clearly also accumulates experience and battle strategies which I believe will premiere itself next book in NT 10. This should mean he should be physically stronger than most characters in this series except perhaps the Darkness and characters like maybe Mugino, but even then it depends in terms of dodging.

Touma's power is so weak, and his block is so ineffective that he is forced to move his body in super-effective ways and make it so that the attack only hits his hand so it can be negated before it hits his body. Not only does this make his right hand absurdly strong, but it makes him have a super grasp of how to move to block from other people, and avoid attacks. All in all, it means he should have a much larger capacity/experience for battle strategies than the others, it means he shouldn't tire, which was already true as of volume 1 where he was described as being able to easily run long distances without tiring very easily, and it also means that he should have a very durable body. In many shonen, MC's win since they keep on trying and getting back up, in Touma's case, this makes sense since he actually has physical strength in comparison to anyone who uses magic.

I want to stress the point that magic/esper powers are used to control quantum mechanical interpretations and are caused in the mind, to trigger effects elsewhere. Saiai is a rare case, who can use her power to make herself appear stronger, but it doesn't actually make her any stronger than a normal person, because it is actually a thin layer of nitrogen that she uses around her body to make her have a super strong defense that can make bullets only sting (like in that short in the railgun manga). So espers are just as weak as normal people, and you can think of them as being as weak as people who just sit around, and watch anime all day, that weak physically. They just have one supernatural power that they can happen to use as well to cause damage. To state it clearly, they can create huge attacks on others, but really cannot take damage unto themselves, but usually don't need to, since people can't easily break their defenses.

So this is why I say Touma's plot armor makes sense before NT 9.

As of NT 9 it became pretty clear to me that the way it works is that Touma's Imagine Breaker or Aleister's influence is somehow protecting him in some way. Moreover, in addition to those factors, he has the increased strength mentioned from before, but as I mentioned before, I believe he has a super twisted personality that makes him resistant to the point of absolute ridiculousness to change. That's the imagine breaker which takes on the form of a reference point to others, it's making Touma absolutely ridiculous like that. I've already said that, and don't just say this point isn't likely true, since it does explain what happened in NT 9, and it actually makes sense. I mean, if Kamachi were going for anything, he'd be going for this... Imagine Breaker makes Touma resistant like other shonen protagonists, but unlike them, he has an actual power that makes him that way, which makes it less of plot-armor, but more of just his inner power being stronger than it appears. Of course, though if he didn't try hard every time he would lose, because his power is also weak. His power is just strong enough that if he tries his best and is smart, he can win against anyone. That's like other shonen protagonists, except less ass-pulled... So yes, I fully believe in this explanation, and please don't say it's doubtful, but yes you are entitled to your own opinion.

Anyway, this is why I think both of them have comparable levels of plot armor. And that both of them are just well-loved by the right person to make things they want eventually happen...

[Ravagerblade]

Just bringing this over from another thread/section for on-topicness.
Quoting my self. Accelerator talk.

Not to bring up un-related topics, but Accelerator got somewhat of the treatment too.

Talking to LevelSeven

If your going to criticize Touma's plot armor then Accelerator takes the cake; he should be dead. Flat out and simple, DEAD. So your opinion on Touma is moot point.

Discussing with LevelSeven

Except at the time of him getting shot in the head was when he was using all his power for Last Order, Some how by some Diablos Ex Machina/Dus Ex Machina/plot armor, he lives, that's luck right there don't deny it.

Accelerator is not trained in the physical sense unlike Touma. It's glaringly obviously pointed out in the LN. See you have it backwards again. The City is the jungle and Touma lives in it everyday with no 'power' at all, where as Accelerator is the 'king of the jungle' only in esper power, he can't fight worth shit

[Birdway]

Nothing beats #3's plot armor, both Touma and Accelerator would die of envy if they knew about it .

[dniv]

Touma and Accelerator have about as much plot armor, since Kamachi likely prefers him to Mikoto. I think the term you are looking for is that in comparison to Touma/Accelerator, Mikoto has plot appearance armor. She's likely to appear even if she isn't useful in contrast to the other two, who only appear if they do something useful.

I'd argue they have about the same amount of plot armor. As to who has the least plot armor in Index series, for some reason I want to say Kakine Teitoku. I wonder why. And yes, I put him below Himegami.

Also, I would like to point out the controversial claim I said before that Accelerator could likely beat Touma in a fight if both of them were in the "right" to win. Every time they've fought up until now, Accelerator didn't really have higher moral ground, so I argue that was a contributing factor to the results.

I believe that both Touma and Accelerator are supposed to improve in strength, but from my point of view, Aleister cares more about Accelerator, while almost everyone working with him or under him care more about Touma's growth... I find it divided, but for some reason I think Aleister doesn't want Touma to get too strong, but he doesn't really care about Accelerator, since level 6 is still within Science (likely) and Touma likely isn't, so he would be harder to deal with if he got too strong. Though that of course remains to be seen...

A big aspect of this series is character match-ups. Some characters can destroy others given the right situation, but lose easily to another character. This is easily seen when you look at Person 1 vs. Touma and Person 2 vs. Touma and Person 1 vs. Person 2. With Accelerator, it likely depends on a lot of factors, that are pretty much always arc dependent because of his "handicap..."

[tsunade666]

#3 has amazing plot armor aside from plot appearance armor.

#3 hasn't fight yet an unwinnable fight like Touma and Aleister. And even if she ended up fighting a monster opponent(saint and Valkyrie) the enemy isn't taking her seriously so she still manage to win.

[Miraluka]

Sigh...

Hai hai, we know she has the same plot armor as Kira Yamato on his Strike Freedom but this is Accel-kun's thread.

Don't go too off topic.

[LevelSeven]

Spoiler for @dniv @birdway and others:

Index anime season 3 to be plot:

WOW i didnt know that this is also count as P.A.

Index anime season 2 plot:

THIS is something which also bugged me....
its true, i oversaw that, it is similar with toumas right hand and others who still use supernatural powers agaisnt him instead of throwing a few cars....
that is really for both cases...

Index season 1, Index light novels later speculation, railgun manga Daihasesai arc:

that is also odd...
kakine was considered the spare plan so the survivel of accel wasnt certain...
of course only until gensei said that accel is the only person who can fulfill the dream of AC.....
well, i always thought that if accel not survives, aleister will use kakine... even now but given the railgun manga
oh but if you mean with:
he clearly has super plot armor privileges to survive anything,
his ability to reflect and be as broken as possible than it isnt really P.A., it is his abilityset....
if fiamma defeats the world in one move than it isnt P.A. that he managed to do that, it was his own power....

Index I

this reason isnt bigger than toumas...
this fits the "it was in his abilityset" explanation...
after aiwass cuts him inot pieces he can walk and sit...hence he can fight in only what? 3? 4? days, his ability obviously heals him way faster than it would do it by a average human/esper....
that he can endure pain was also shown in the sisters arc...
accel loosed his "coolness" which brought him to make failures but he still was able to calculate enough and attack back....obviously he was able to think...
in his fight agaisnt kihara he was hit directly into his face but he was shocked and checked if his abilitys worked...
wouldnt the choker run out accel wouldnt loose his "mind", he never did in a fight....
im not sure but was he actually hit by one of komabas punches??
NOTE: vs kihara, vs komaba was only watched by anime, i didnt read the LN

NT 9 and the light novels in general:

i dont know how we came to this topic again but i went with your speculation...
if i unconsciously (it was really not my intention, maybe i didnt even recognized it) wrote about the fight again than please ignore it guys.....
(real life, work, university, family, friends all this really influences the thinking )

I'd argue they have about the same amount of plot armor. As to who has the least plot armor in Index series, for some reason I want to say Kakine Teitoku. I wonder why. And yes, I put him below Himegami.

to 100%, the original kakine really has 0.000001% (because he survived the attack of black wing accel)....

With Accelerator, it likely depends on a lot of factors, that are pretty much always arc dependent because of his "handicap..."

i need to say that (after sleeping long enough and having cleared what bothered me in this cr*ppy real life)
accels "handicap" (if you mean the choker) is only for lulz...
everytime where he comes closer to death (i mean really close) than the wings will pop up and tear apart everyone, im pretty sure that they would even attack the sisters if they are the reason for the situation (a bit like aiwass's automatic wings or fiamma's auto-protection)
the choker only exist because it makes it possible to create a fight without having a angel-class char fighting agaisnt him...
but even if they manage to bring him down, the inexplicable power will show up and (now i can say it like revagerblade) make a deus-ex wing to the whole situation...

FROM BIRDWAY:

Nothing beats #3's plot armor, both Touma and Accelerator would die of envy if they knew about it

this is only my personal interpretation but it seems like you really dont like mikoto.... (i can be wrong)

I find it divided, but for some reason I think Aleister doesn't want Touma to get too strong, but he doesn't really care about Accelerator, since level 6 is still within Science (likely) and Touma likely isn't, so he would be harder to deal with if he got too strong.

mmhh, this is my interpretation but i think lvl6 will overcome the "sides" of magic and science....
it means omnipotence afterall (sort of)

#3 hasn't fight yet an unwinnable fight like Touma and Aleister. And even if she ended up fighting a monster opponent(saint and Valkyrie) the enemy isn't taking her seriously so she still manage to win.

we should move this to mikotos char thread but i still want to say something...
mikoto vs aim burst was such a fight...
she couldnt win agaisnt it but won through the help of friends and would kiyama be a kihara than the stuff would mostlikely end in a atomic explosion where only accel survived with a destroyed coffee can in his hand

##but i see them now the instances which others meant as P.A., i didnt recognized them as such....the part where accel didnt kill LO (as example)....
it is similar with toumas managing to find the collar of index and destroying it...
i never saw them as PA##

Talking to LevelSeven
Discussing with LevelSeven

i dont really understand what you want to say with them....
i speculate: you like to write "LevelSeven" (yeah, the name is incredible)

[Birdway]

Spoiler for "LevelSeven:

That was conveniently cheap coming from you given how much you raise questions about other characters.
Just face it, fighting against Kiyama and then against AIM Burst and only gets some dirt on her clothes?
Her own railgun didn't blow her arm after being reflected by Accelerator? Lets just say Accelerator didn't because he was still talking, right? .
Against Frenda gets some hits but nothing some sleep can't heal . It's funny because one of the promotional arts of the manga features her smiling while poiting at a band-aid on her cheek and I was like "I have yet to see someone badass enough to scratch her face and get away with it ."

Like tsunade666 said, we got her fanservice fight against Brunhild, you could even skip it and the outcome won't change. It doesn't helps Brunhild never used magic(she said she didn't because wanted to use them against Othinus... who never appeared in the city lol) just physical attacks but that was enough to force her to use anything sure could do.

So, to answer your question: no, I don't hate her but I dislike how she is handled most the time, her popularity doesn't helps when the cult would puts her above others(even Acqua because he uses water. Seriously?) and how they overlook her flaws(remember her regression from NT6 to NT7?) but then trash others with flaws(like Index).
Is it because "tsundere = big fandom"? I don't know but I've seen better tsunderes, ones who have the dere factor, not just for show

[LevelSeven]

That was conveniently cheap coming from you given how much you raise questions about other characters.

well, i dont gave much thoughts about it....
i dont dont like her but she is the same level as index....
i would include birdway but she is far under this two (because of the epilogue of nt2)...
both are meh!

[GreyZone]

When we talk about "plot-induced-stupidity", the first ones who come into my mind are the sisters, who even after 10000 deaths don't understand that Accel has reflection power and instead continue shooting him with guns. And they don't find out until Accel HIMSELF tells them. This is funny considering that the level 6 project was at over 50% at that point... But hey they are Mikoto clones, so it's no surprise^^

[LevelSeven]

When we talk about "plot-induced-stupidity", the first ones who come into my mind are the sisters, who even after 10000 deaths don't understand that Accel has reflection power and instead continue shooting him with guns.

this part was painful (not only because they died)...
it makes it even more painful because the #1 clone was able to make a close-to-the-truth theory after 40 SECONDS and it seems like the clones #2 - #10031 ignored it....
because even i could find out that bullets wont kill him after dying more than 5 times...
what did Will-san at this moment? she is intelligent enough to know about the occult without being really exposed to it (as far as i know) and cant grasp the "simplest" application of vector manipulation?
this is really "plot-induced-stupidity"...

[Miraluka]

Will only has a big mouth ;p.

[Draco Spirit]

TBH my general impression with Will is she started of with very little understanding of the world, but has been growing fairly quickly...

[Bakaizer]

when did even the will of misaka existed?, at the beginning of the experiment?

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Miraluka

Will only has a big mouth ;p.

Don't confuse the Collective for Index

[Draco Spirit]

I think she existed as long as there been more than one sister... but I suspect her early existence was more of a "feeling" than someone who could chat.

[LevelSeven]

Will only has a big mouth ;p.

this or she is a tool created by aleister and controlled too....

think about it:
accel wants to destroy the darkness of AC and with that aleisers plans = Will shows up and "brainwashes" him

touma wants to give up and don kill millions, this would go against aleisters plans, he need the current world = Will shows up and "bainwashes" him

she is to convenient to be real...
the Will which appeared because 'she' deemed it as necassary and also helped aleisters plans to 100%....

that she is a controlled tool of aleister which allows him to manipulate the MC's after his desire seems much more understandable....

therefore: she will not tell anything except aleister wants it...

[OH&S]

^
NT Volume 6 and careful reading of NT Volume 9 contradict that.

[Trung-t-rung]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

this or she is a tool created by aleister and controlled too....

think about it:
accel wants to destroy the darkness of AC and with that aleisers plans = Will shows up and "brainwashes" him

touma wants to give up and don kill millions, this would go against aleisters plans, he need the current world = Will shows up and "bainwashes" him

she is to convenient to be real...
the Will which appeared because 'she' deemed it as necassary and also helped aleisters plans to 100%....

that she is a controlled tool of aleister which allows him to manipulate the MC's after his desire seems much more understandable....

therefore: she will not tell anything except aleister wants it...

So in a way, both Touma and Accel are under her thumb ?