2008-11-17, 15:59 | Link #41 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: PMB Headquarters
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I don't see how the girl's refusal of a heart transplant have any ties with euthanasia or suicide. Its not even related. However, it is entirely possible to drag any unrelated issue to have relations as long as you try hard enough.
All I see is.. A 13-year old female teenager refuses to have a heart transplant, because the chances of the surgery may be unsuccessful and it may also have side effects. Aside from that, the surgery will leave physical scars. And on top of that, the actual idea is to have one's chest opened up by surgeons, the heart forcefully removed and then the surgeons will forcefully put in another person's internal organ into the teen, then sew it up. It is very understandable as to why she refused the transplant. And it is definitely not related to euthanasia or suicide. She is not requesting any fatal injections and neither is she trying to kill herself. How hard is this to understand? I don't get it. |
2008-11-17, 16:34 | Link #42 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I don't have much personal experience with hospitals either, but my mother does. While she's thankfully never needed an actual transplant, I know she balks at her own should-be-regular visits. Not to mention her medication. I imagine it'd be worse for that kid. Quote:
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So what if mankind dies out? I don't support genocide, but I don't support forcing people to reproduce, either. Quote:
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Just like Achilles chose a short, glorious life over a long, obscure one, she chose a short, comfortable one over a slightly longer, unpleasant one. Quote:
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To be precise, she wants to avoid the "cure" proposed to her because of its side effects. |
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2008-11-17, 19:45 | Link #43 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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WanderingKnight: I'm sorry, but if the girl wants to die, what part of it is related to euthanasia?
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2008-11-17, 20:00 | Link #44 |
Gregory House
IT Support
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Umm, so you would really really force her to live against her will?
I... really can't understand the reasoning behind that (well, actually, I do, but I don't see the fairness of it). If anything, letting her live would do her much much worse--as I said before, if she believes it'll be hell, it will be hell for her.
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2008-11-17, 21:46 | Link #45 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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I believe I've already stated my stand:
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To reiterate what Dr Rosalie Shaw said: "When people ask to die, what they really mean is, 'Do you know how difficult this is?' As their bodies break down, they hope that they will not linger long, but they don't expect doctors to do anything but listen." Dr Shaw does not confuse euthanasia with a living will, but she does, on the other hand, highlight some very important concerns: 1) How do caregivers know when they haven't tried hard enough to persuade a terminally-ill patient to continue the fight to stay alive? 2) How do we know for sure when the resignation to death is not, in fact, a cry for help? In other words, are we really sure that the patient fully understands his choice? Have we, the caregivers, truly heard what he was actually asking for? Signing a living will does not mean condoning assisted suicide. However, it's not very hard to see the potential moral equivalence. For people who fervently believe that life is sacred, letting someone die when you have the means to potentially save him is only one step removed from actually killing him with your own hands. By all means, we should respect an individual's right to choose death with dignity. For such people, palliative care is vital. But again, as Dr Shaw noted, different people react to impending death in different ways. For some people, it could well be that they have lost hope because there is no one around to support them through the pain, to make it worthwhile to stay alive, just a little bit longer. Can we then truly say that we're doing the "right thing" by respecting their wish to refuse extraordinary treatment? What if someone had shown these patients just that little bit more love and care, to make life worth living, to the very painful end? Would we not then have failed our duty to our fellow human beings? Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2008-11-17 at 22:07. |
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2008-11-17, 23:14 | Link #46 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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Update on the end-of-life debate in Singapore:
A living will is not euthanasia? Quote:
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2008-11-18, 05:58 | Link #47 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2008-11-18, 08:37 | Link #48 | ||||
Ehh I love suits?
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Also I apologized for the word pussy when talking of suicides, and I said that it was the wrong word. For what I am gonna respond of your hateful comments, a perfect biological war machine means a juggernaut rather than an intelligent super species that would "create" and use their own weapons. And you asking why somebody "should" experience climax at least once in their life is like asking why should you give an orange to a poor concentration camp kid who has never even tasted an apple before? Then you start going to the personals again. After this you post more stuff like "happiness isn't that cheap" comments, which I could again respond with more proof, and to which you could answer that "not all want those things" to which I'd respond with "yes they do" and you'd respond with "what makes you believe so" and I'd respond with facts, and then you'd completely ignore this portion. Note this is also my fault, because I tend to add a lot of stuff to the base arguments, and you tend to pick the added stuff rather than the base. Quote:
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You'd most likely notify me that her pain and sadness can't be removed. Pain? Sadness? She is not in pain, and would not be in pain. Sadness, she does have. If her heart would magically regenerate the flesh in the hole again, will she still be sad a couple years after the regeneration? Probably. Would she still be sad if after the magical regeneration she got laid and won an elephant from a circus lottery? Nope. BUT she would be if she was one of those rare chronicly depressed people. Quote:
Last edited by Eggs in a Bottle; 2008-11-18 at 09:19. |
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2008-11-18, 09:25 | Link #49 | |||
Gregory House
IT Support
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Ahn_Mihn's point (and mine) is: She doesn't want to live a life of constant hospital visits, which would mean pain and torture to her. Why prevent her from dying peacefully?
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2008-11-18, 09:35 | Link #50 | |||||
Ehh I love suits?
Join Date: Oct 2008
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We were talking of which life would be better, not of should somebody prevent her from doing anything. Quote:
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And notice, Knight also targetted his post at me. Quote:
Indeed I was gonna shout "because you are f***** falling", but rather, I just placed that example. Last edited by Eggs in a Bottle; 2008-11-18 at 09:57. |
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2008-11-18, 10:51 | Link #51 | |||||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2008-11-18, 12:56 | Link #52 | ||
Ehh I love suits?
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Anh, how did I make a mistake when things like these happen, and notice, it was late and I was intoxicated when I wrote this post and that is why it is a little harsh:
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I posted a reply here commenting on how these posts were originally in an other thread and I am not discussing euthanasia here and how he (suit man) should just delete them all instead of placing them here, but he deleted that post. I also had another stupid reply to Anh's post in the original thread, but he deleted that one too. |
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2008-11-18, 16:19 | Link #53 | |||||||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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By the way, that was just one instance. What about: Quote:
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(About your own post!) Or: Or: Quote:
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And hey, further evidence of your bad writing: Quote:
Anyway, for the sake of on-topicness: do you guys think there's a moral difference between unplugging someone and giving him or her poison? Or cutting their throat? I don't. Killing is killing, regardless of the means employed. However, if the person itself is sincerely asking for it, there is no "victim". I just can't understand why some would make that distinction. Treating one as a right of the patient, and the other as some horrible crime. |
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2008-11-18, 16:46 | Link #54 | |
Wiggle Your Big Toe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Milwaukee
Age: 33
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I think part of the morality that comes into peoples minds is that its painful/cruel to slit someones throat or poisoning them. Another moral argument thats often brought in regards are religious beliefs stating that individuals have no right to terminate their god-given lives. If a person is very ill and sick of living death should be a choice for them. If a person is very ill and sick of living death should be a choice for them.
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2008-11-18, 16:54 | Link #55 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2008-11-18, 17:04 | Link #56 | ||
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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In other words, to conclude both my comment, if a personal decision is the most relevant means of determining an outcome for a situation, then what happens when a personal decision cannot be made or the individual attmepting to make the decision is too impared to properly understand the situation? When does an outsiders choice matter more than an individual choice? Last edited by james0246; 2008-11-18 at 17:23. |
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2008-11-18, 17:17 | Link #57 | |
♪♫ Maya Iincho ♩♬
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I'm gonna not read the previous 3 pages and post my remark before I go and read it so I won't quote anyone just yet.
(humm... tinyleaf's post was dated back at the 13th? Hum... I must have missed it[been playing the new wow since the 14th, lol ^^.) This issue is nothing more than a matter of personal opinion. No law has ever been created or is even known to prevent such a cause. ~~ The only huge issue I can see here is that right now, Hannah has no rights on how she choose to die. If she were the legal age in England, there would be no issue once so ever. Though I do entirely agree with her words. "No one can be forced to have a heart transplant," she said." Quote:
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2008-11-18, 17:36 | Link #58 | ||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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And who are you to judge she's not qualified? Or how much pain she was in when she made her decision? And I'd like to point out, the decision she made is reversible: she can change her mind and agree to the transplant after all. (There's still the problem of finding a compatible donor, of course. From that point of view, she's wasting time.) But if she has a heart transplant, well, that's irreversible. What she sacrificed won't come back. And it's not just a matter of "getting worse after the transplant". The problem is that, even if it goes perfectly, well, she'll have to put up with medical procedures and hospital stays she otherwise wouldn't have to endure. And of course, it can, indeed, go wrong. Who are you to decide it's a gamble she has to take? You're acting like she has nothing to lose. But that's wrong. She still has her life, and is presently spending it out of hospitals. She doesn't want to lose that, and that's what created the polemic in the first place. Not some actual death wish. Quote:
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2008-11-18, 17:42 | Link #59 | |
Wiggle Your Big Toe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Milwaukee
Age: 33
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Now about the pain altering their understanding of the situation. Chronic pain is classified as a general medical condition. A terminal illness brings with it a sense of bereavement. You have lost your life, you have lost time with the ones you love. That is a sense of loss and a cause of bereavement. In both cases(un-relieved chronic pain and terminal illness) you lose your sense of control. You worry about becoming a burden on your loved ones and fear ending up not being able to care for yourself and perhaps that more suffering will come from trying to fight this pyhsical infliction. These are not treatable disorders. This is not simply an escape from temporary problems that get blown out of proportion. These people are not suffering from a delusional illness. They are in their right frame of mind. If cleared by a psychiatrist as not having a mental illness precipitating the feeling of wanting to die, I see no reason why, in those circumstances, their decision can not be respected.
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