To Aru Majutsu no Index - Character Discussion - Kamijo Touma

[Not Random]

Sorry if I go on a tangent here but I just thought of something...

Touma's Imagine Breaker isn't at full power based on what Terra has said. We know that the weird thing inside Touma is being suppressed, most likely by IB. So it's possible that IB's powers are being relegated to suppressing that thing. If (I'm assuming) IB was supposed to be at full power from birth, maybe that strange being was sealed inside Touma after his birth. That would explain why Touma's powers decreased from affecting others to only himself.

I think I might be wrong since I haven't been following the novel discussion recently.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by I_am_Kami

So in the novel

Spoiler for novel:

he never lost imagine breaker?

Spoiler:

No, the arm that grew back became Imagine Breaker again.

Something about there can only be one unique power like this in the world, and it's the right hand attach to Kamijou Touma.

Originally Posted by Not Random

Sorry if I go on a tangent here but I just thought of something...

Touma's Imagine Breaker isn't at full power based on what Terra has said. We know that the weird thing inside Touma is being suppressed, most likely by IB. So it's possible that IB's powers are being relegated to suppressing that thing. If (I'm assuming) IB was supposed to be at full power from birth, maybe that strange being was sealed inside Touma after his birth. That would explain why Touma's powers decreased from affecting others to only himself.

I think I might be wrong since I haven't been following the novel discussion recently.

That's what alot of people also think, but I'm kinda hoping Imagine Breaker could be 'refine' even with that thing.

[Suzuku]

Have we ever even gotten a clear translation for what Terra said? I can't wait until Teh Ping eventually gets around to translating vol 14, although it seems like his next vol will be 16.

[Spyth]

I just reread that part and here is my speculation

Spoiler for speculation + spoiler novel 22:

I don't think he actually completely lost the 'imagine breaker'. When his arm was cut off, I think at that point his cut off arm slowly started drawing the power away from him towards the cut off arm, so I think he still had it, partially.

If he had waited too long, he probably would have lost the power, seeing as the arm and power are said to be linked.

What I understood from volume chapter 10 part 3, is that the right hand is specifically used to contain and regulate the power of 'Imagine Breaker'. So when Touma used his powers he in fact pulled back the power which the cut off arm was drawing from him.
Because of this drawback, the cut off arm lost its purpose, but because its 'use' cannot be lost, an arm regrew on Touma to again contain and regulate 'Imagine Breaker' as it is supposed to do.

I hope this is clear.

[Miraluka]

Originally Posted by I_am_Kami

Can someone explain. Does touma have three kinds of powers?

1)Imagine Breaker
2)Thing inside that scared fiamma
3)power that crushed # 2

Spoiler for My POV:

1. The "cover".
2. Sealed which tried to get free once Touma right's arm got ripped off.
3. Kamijou's Touma real powers.

[Flere821]

I'll post a brief summary of the part in question where Touma lost his right arm:

Spoiler:

Fiamma cuts off IB, his 3rd arm fully materialised and he reached power that can be said to equal "La persona superiore a Dio". Fiamma then tried to blast Touma to smithereens with that power but the giant beam got sliced in half and didn't even harm Touma.

It's unknown what stopped the beam, either IB at full strength or whatever that's inside Touma. Then whatever is inside Touma tried to manifest itself, but was pushed back by Touma's sheer force of will alone. Touma "devoured" whatever strength the entity inside him tried to use to get out and regrew his right arm with that.
With the right arm regrown IB went back to Touma and Fiamma lost the IB he consumed with his right hand.

After going through that... I'm really starting to think IB isn't Touma's only ability >.>

[Miraluka]

Originally Posted by Flere821

I'll post a brief summary of the part in question where Touma lost his right arm:

Spoiler:

Fiamma cuts off IB, his 3rd arm fully materialised and he reached power that can be said to equal "La persona superiore a Dio". Fiamma then tried to blast Touma to smithereens with that power but the giant beam got sliced in half and didn't even harm Touma.

It's unknown what stopped the beam, either IB at full strength or whatever that's inside Touma. Then whatever is inside Touma tried to manifest itself, but was pushed back by Touma's sheer force of will alone. Touma "devoured" whatever strength the entity inside him tried to use to get out and regrew his right arm with that.
With the right arm regrown IB went back to Touma and Fiamma lost the IB he consumed with his right hand.

After going through that... I'm really starting to think IB isn't Touma's only ability >.>

Thats what I mean:
- I.B.
- Precognition.
- True powers.

[Flere821]

Technically 'precognition' isn't the 'supernatural' kind I was talking about (though granted I didn't specify supernatural)... Touma acquired that from only experience (like Archer Emiya from Fate/Stay Night Visual Novel), it's not like a full blown 6th sense. And Accelerator said it's only partial precognition, as it's not perfected yet.

[Chaos2Frozen]

I thought we should discuss some of the things the Author described about Touma in his latest afterword.

Spoiler for Vol 22 afterword:

Originally Posted by Author

About Kamijou Touma:

He’s a "relative" character at all times. If there are no magicians or espers who possess supernatural abilities around him, the ability to "negate" them can’t be shown. It’s the same when ideals clash with ideals; most of the time, you aren't taking the initiative but rather reacting to your opponent. If Touma’s opponent were a normal person who has an unshakable resolve, Touma will probably suffer defeat. Also, against that kind of opponent, "there is no reason to clash".

Now, if the Hamazura Shiage who has grown somewhat defeated Kamijou in a normal fight, there will probably be a balance between the three main characters. That would be very interesting; what do all of you think?

So to defeat Touma you need two conditions.

One, a normal person.

Two, an unshakable resolve ?

Lol, Shiage vs Touma part two? How did he lose to him in the first place?

Originally Posted by Author

In this volume, there are probably many readers who feel that Kamijou isn’t quite like how he is in previous volumes. Though, compared with character growth, the main reason is probably more due to his opponent being too abnormal. If we look at it as "The ability which can restrain a strong power is more powerful", then Kamijou Touma’s position has risen.

Originally, he’s an undefined character.

If he finds that his cat has gotten lost, he’ll do all he can to try and find it. If there's a threat to the world, he'll also use all his strength to stop it from happening. Even though he acts in a serious manner, as the nature of the event changes, the direction that he’s serious towards also changes. Kamijou is then such a magical character.

In other words, Touma changes according to his enemy?

In terms of Character development, how much have Touma actually changed? That's one of the big issue people have with Touma, he's already 'developed' in the sense that unlike Accelerator, there's no real need to change his character. He's already the 'perfect' hero.

Originally Posted by Author

Also, in this series, there have been several characters that can be called "Kamijou’s opponent". These are all characters that were made by taking some aspect of the character Kamijou Touma as a base, but with some changes added. In other words, Kamijou himself has many sides to him to begin with.

Any ideas as to what he meant?

Originally Posted by Author

The impression that the world of "Toaru Majutsu no Index" gives is that there are no overarching plot or characters that specifically pertain to it. Some are just picking various characters as the main protagonist and then telling the stories around them (this is especially true for SS2). Though every protagonist has a story that makes them shine for one moment, Kamijou Touma gives the feeling that for him, from the battlefield with shells flying past to having a Chinese hotpot cook-off, he would be a suitable character regardless of situation… but that’s not saying that he has many talents. Having a "so-called main character" who knows nothing but still charges ahead would probably make this story easier to write. If he is forcibly made into a "specialist of a certain area", then when it comes to problems outside his specialty, there would be deeper questions to worry about.

In other words, you can put [Kamijou Touma] in any situation and he'll fit right in as the 'main character' ?

[zeniselv]

well touma will probably be out until the rest of the party lvls up some more, or maybe hes totally out now and his role would be now as the cool character everyone remember when having a hard time( a-la gurren laggan).

[shmaster]

Shiage lost to Touma the first time because Shiage has no resolve.

And yeah, Touma stands no chance against those who has a firm resolve. Remember how Aqua of the Back tore him into a broken mop?? And we all know how much Aqua believes in his justice.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Rather than no resolve, it's more like they're doing things for the wrong reasons.

Why was Aqua any different? Alot of people believe they were doing the right thing as well.

[shmaster]

Yes, and Shiage is aware of that as well, so that is why Shiage breaks down completely when Touma pointed out. That is not the behavior of someone who has resolve. Shiage does not truely believe he is doing what is right. At best, he is only fooling himself. I mean, from the start, he knows he isn't as good as his former boss nor does he think he can be better.

And for Aqua? Aqua believe in his justice without slightest of doubt and put them in action without hesistation. He has no second thought and no regret. His belief of justice border the territory of zealotry.

Compare to Fiamma, who also believe he is "saving the world" but fell short within seconds after Touma begin his lecture. It is obvious to tell how Aqua is different.

Most of all, Touma's greatest weapon, his brainwashing lecture that has converted many is mots likely is not going to work on Aqua. Aqua does not believe in words, justice that can be spoken are just meaning less combination of letters to him. He believe justice can be spoken because those justice has no weight. That is also why Aqua never preaches his justice by words, but by actions and other hints, like the way he did to Knight Leader.

[Chaos2Frozen]

In that case, I want to see how Aleister would fare, considering that he claims that his 'Illusions' had already been destroyed, or would he be another Fiamma?

[zeniselv]

maybe the brainswashing ability doesnt work on people that is actually good.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

In that case, I want to see how Aleister would fare, considering that he claims that his 'Illusions' had already been destroyed, or would he be another Fiamma?

Fianma's a stand up comedian compared to that stone faced guy...

[I_am_Kami]

Originally Posted by zeniselv

well touma will probably be out until the rest of the party lvls up some more, or maybe hes totally out now and his role would be now as the cool character everyone remember when having a hard time( a-la gurren laggan).

kamina wasnt exactly the main character. The first ep always pointed to shimon finding his destiny

[Miraluka]

A comparison I usually think is Kamina ans Simon with Aqua and Shiage.

[Spyth]

Originally Posted by Wilfriback

A comparison I usually think is Kamina ans Simon with Aqua and Shiage.

Apperently JC Staff decided to change the character design for Aqua a little

EDIT: I'll post the aqua one on the image thread. Here one of Touma after he obtains his full power.

Spoiler for Kamina Touma:

[outerelf]

That's a cool and awesome photo (anyone who wears those sunglasses automatically becomes the epitome of coolness) but I'm not certain if that photo belongs in this thread.