Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 08 Discussion / Poll

[Guppy]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

however, her breakdown was because of ep6 : she is STILL guilty about her incident with subaru.

I agree with you on this part. The problem is that Subaru and Teana drew the wrong lessons from that incident - not "we were too reckless, next time we'll play it safer and wait for backup to arrive," but instead "we weren't good enough to make it work, let's train harder and try again."

[Fuyu no Sora]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Nanoha's crossfire shoot just shut her will to fight all at once, that's all.

And this is what has been debated and is still being debated in here. You're all trying to justify Teana's course of action which was flawed to say the least. If she's going to be a leader, she has to act like one by setting the example and keeping her cool, not by going berserk and trying to hit your mark by any means possible, something risky for herself and the team she's leading on.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Fuyu no Sora

And this is what has been debated and is still being debated in here. You're all trying to justify Teana's course of action which was flawed to say the least. If she's going to be a leader, she has to act like one by setting the example and keeping her cool, not by going berserk and trying to hit your mark by any means possible, something risky for herself and the team she's leading on.

when i meant crossfire shoot, it was the very first attack.
Teana was no longer able, nor willing to fight after the first attack. she get knocked out with the second.

I'm not justifying her course of action.
i'm actually say how i feel about her actions.
i never say she was right, this is the opposite : i don't approve how reckless she was, especially considering how she was ranting on subaru's recklessness in previous episodes.

but i'm kinda horrified how people can label a character as "villainous" or "completely crazy", etc, just because they were "human" and outburst their feelings

She realised she couldn't succeed the test in that way : she lost EVERYTHING with that block : her training was a waste, etc etc. (this might be emo at the first glance, but this isn't uncalled : this is her character development, and this was rather well done, considering Teana's feeling from episode 1 until now)

how would you feel if everything was shattered in only one single block?
Teana didn't snap because she wanted to hit properly nanoha no matter what.
instead, she was completely crushed by another failure, and just lost to it, without considering everything beside of "strength".

Teana was the most cool headed rookies, but the pressure and her guitl just reversed her manners.
you must understand that her breakdown is irrevelent to her usual self.

[Guppy]

Originally Posted by dkellis

But if Nanoha intended the second shot to be a lesson all along, well, that's her prerogative as an instructor, whether regulation-correct or not. I'd like there to be some consequence if it turns out not to be regulation-correct, but I wouldn't complain if there weren't, since, well, the TSAB seems to be fairly lax anyway. (Yeah, I'm used to plot holes.)

I think it's reasonably evident that if Nanoha just wanted to stop Teana quickly, she would have used Divine Buster or Starlight Breaker and done the job in one shot. Her copying of Tea's own technique strongly suggests a calculated move to me.

As for her punishment of Tea while making Subaru watch... I think we really have to wait until next episode before we can judge whether Nanoha explains herself properly or not.

[dkellis]

Originally Posted by Fuyu no Sora

Like I previously stated, this was a psychological lesson for Subaru. I'll have to quote myself in this case:

Hm, maybe I should elaborate: what purpose would Nanoha's message serve? Basically, what lesson did Nanoha want to send to Subaru, and for what purpose?

I think that showing how there are Bad People out there would be a bit redundant, and I'm just not sure why Nanoha would want to imprint upon Subaru the image of Nanoha Shooting Teana. The most obvious reaction to this (as shown) is anger and hate, and there must be a reason why Nanoha wants to bring out that hate.

Compassion with a berserk girl not caring about anything but shooting you down to prove she won? Please explain this to me. Teana went nuts because of ONE mistake and she wanted to take that out on Nanoha, not caring if Subaru was in the angle of her shot.

Compassion with someone who's just as human as you are.

Teana evidently decided that the best course of action at the time was to do something that is objectively quite stupid. Her judgement was clouded quite a bit (I think this is agreed upon), which led to what happened.

Nanoha also decided that the best course of action at the time was to do what she did. I'm arguing that I think her judgement was also clouded. Whether to a greater or lesser degree, the clouding is there.

Letting emotions rule over logic is a very human fallibility. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

[Fuyu no Sora]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

when i meant crossfire shoot, it was the very first attack.
Teana was no longer able, nor willing to fight after the first attack. she get knocked out with the second.

I'm not justifying her course of action.
i'm actually say how i feel about her actions.
i never say she was right, this is the opposite : i don't approve how reckless she was, especially considering how she was ranting on subaru's recklessness in previous episodes.

but i'm kinda horrified how people can label a character as "villainous" or "completely crazy", etc, just because they were "human" and outburst their feelings

She realised she couldn't succeed the test in that way : she lost EVERYTHING with that block : her training was a waste, etc etc. (this might be emo at the first glance, but this isn't uncalled : this is her character development, and this was rather well done, considering Teana's feeling from episode 1 until now)

how would you feel if everything was shattered in only one single block?
Teana didn't snap because she wanted to hit properly nanoha no matter what.
instead, she was completely crushed by another failure, and just lost to it, without considering everything beside of "strength".

Teana was the most cool headed rookies, but the pressure and her guitl just reversed her manners.
you must understand that her breakdown is irrevelent to her usual self.

Fine fine, I'll give you that much. But her breakdown does affect her usual self. Knowing how proud she is, probably she'll isolate herself even more out of embarrasment for her 'crazy' moment and the outburst she had.

I never said she was villanious. We were speculating a 'what if' scenario, should she go and join Spaghetti. I was merely expressing my opinion on the subject. Neither did I say crazy. I said mentally unstable. There's a difference. For all we know, she could be mentally unstable because of all the losses she's suffered in her life, first her parents, then her brother.

[Guppy]

Originally Posted by dkellis

I think that showing how there are Bad People out there would be a bit redundant, and I'm just not sure why Nanoha would want to imprint upon Subaru the image of Nanoha Shooting Teana. The most obvious reaction to this (as shown) is anger and hate, and there must be a reason why Nanoha wants to bring out that hate.

If I had to speculate, I'd wonder if Nanoha hasn't cottoned on to the fact that Subaru views her as a soft touch, which partly led up to this whole incident. That would certainly be an effective way of disabusing her of the notion, although it might be counterproductive in Nanoha's dual role as Stars team leader.

As I've stated, though, I'd rather wait until the next episode to see if Nanoha will explain her reasoning to Subaru.

[FlareKnight]

I'm still believing the lesson that Nanoha was trying to make was important for both Teana and Subaru. Subaru's lesson really was that if you don't fight intelligently and if they continue that way this will happen. Subaru may end up watching someone she cares about being killed without being able to do anything. Nanoha could've subdued Teana in a less flashy method but this did serve a purpose. If she had told the reason before shooting it wouldn't have been such an impact if she told it after. I'm hoping Nanoha will come back or someone will come in and explain the purpose to Subaru since we don't need her just being angry about it without learning anything.

For Teana I think things were partially to get her unconcious before she flipped out any more. Also showing her what fate is awaiting her if change isn't made. One shot could've done it and a bind to finish but if Nanoha is going to be going this far might as well send the message home. Some may not like how she did this but the choice was made.

It might help the both of them if Nanoha does give out this story of what happened to her. If something isn't done those two really could get themselves and their comrades killed.

[dkellis]

Originally Posted by Guppy

If I had to speculate, I'd wonder if Nanoha hasn't cottoned on to the fact that Subaru views her as a soft touch, which partly led up to this whole incident. That would certainly be an effective way of disabusing her of the notion, although it might be counterproductive in Nanoha's dual role as Stars team leader.

As I've stated, though, I'd rather wait until the next episode to see if Nanoha will explain her reasoning to Subaru.

Yeah, I'm waiting for the next episode as well. In fact, if Nanoha doesn't explain her reasoning to Teana/Subaru, then I'd be more than a little annoyed.

I figure that Nanoha already made her point that she wasn't a soft touch when she made that speech about the training being useless. Not to mention that if there was some flashback which showed that Nanoha knew beforehand that Subaru and Teana were plotting to do the Crossfire Shoot again, a simple "I'm not as easy-going as you think" would have prevented the incident from happening in the first place. (Of course, I'm assuming that Nanoha did not know this.) After all, unlike Teana, Subaru definitely listens to Nanoha when the latter is being serious/clear.

If this does not get resolved before the next mission they all go out on (looks like the next episode), there'll be a huge amount of unproductive tension and grudges in the Stars squad. The leader is not supposed to show herself as being vindictive, justified or otherwise; leading is done best (or at least "most properly") via respect (or, in darker stories, fear), rather than hatred.

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

I'm hoping Nanoha will come back or someone will come in and explain the purpose to Subaru since we don't need her just being angry about it without learning anything.

Exactly. I still see nothing in the last scene which shows that Subaru has learned anything from this, other than to hate Nanoha (and the feeling of betrayal).

[Guppy]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Didn't they really just use the normal trick though? Subaru was bait and holding Nanoha from the front while Teana attacked from behind. Sure it was a blade instead of a shot but it's still their plan.

Isn't the "normal trick" supposed to be Teana covering Subaru, though, rather than Teana using Subaru as a decoy?

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Guppy

Isn't the "normal trick" supposed to be Teana covering Subaru, though, rather than Teana using Subaru as a decoy?

that was both, IMO.
the normal and usual tactic was : teana as a cover for subaru.

Though, during episode 6, Teana used subaru as a decoy (this is the main reason why nanoha lectured Teana about "teamplay", correct me if i'm wrong)

as for this episode, it is a mix between both tactics, though the dagger plan was much more a combination attack.

[FlareKnight]

Well depends I guess on how much we've seen them go. In the first test Teana was the distraction, simply because she was injured and so couldn't do much. When the 'incident' last episode happened Subaru was the decoy while Teana was going to finish it. So maybe there isn't a usual trick?

[Guppy]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Well depends I guess on how much we've seen them go. In the first test Teana was the distraction, simply because she was injured and so couldn't do much. When the 'incident' last episode happened Subaru was the decoy while Teana was going to finish it. So maybe there isn't a usual trick?

I'm going off what Nanoha said previously about the "Centre Guard" position that Teana's supposed to be occupying - it sounded basically like a pure fire-support role.

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by dkellis

It's clear that Teana was in no position to listen to Nanoha after the first shot, being that she was, well, dazed. (And after that, unconscious.) But Subaru was given no clear word of explanation. Why is this?

You also forget that Teana was in no position to listen to Nanoha before the first shot. Nanoha waited to see the situation pan out, then decided to attack. Nanoha's binding of Subaru has many messages, and we could speculate back and forth what that message is (you put down some good arguments in your post here) but whatever it was, the intent to show both Subaru and Teana what the consequences of irrational behaviour in a possible real-world situation is there.

Given that this is the third screw-up warning for Teana (and the fourth for Subaru, counting when Nanoha swiped her off Wing Road with Raising Heart earlier in the battle), I reckon Nanoha had just about enough, and took Vita's comment at the end of episode 6 into consideration (with her own spin on it). You're in an elite mage unit, in the real world, you don't get three let-offs - you're lucky to get one.

Originally Posted by dkellis

I'm not saying that this is definitely an objectively Better Way, but in my opinion it would have been more logical. If two trainees of mine were acting in such flagrant disregard of orders, they may have lost any rights to buddy-bantering or such at that moment (after any repercussions and discipline would be another matter), but breaking (or even bending) the rules myself would have been out of line. This seemed like a time to hew even more closely to the rules than before.

And how are we to know that Nanoha isn't acting logically and rationally in this situation? Somehow I doubt Nanoha wanted to take the risk of binding Teana, especially considering Tea has already demonstrated the ability to use higher-level skills. Risking a bind being broken before backup arrives and a possible counter-attack is not an acceptable option.

In my view, both the "shot to stun, shot to knock out" and the "shot to stun, bind and arrest" approaches are logical, but highly dependent on the situation, and the mindset and personality of the person in charge. Nanoha already mentioned in episode 6 that "if there is time to shout about the small things, there is even more time to teach them things by knocking them down in a mock battle". Perhaps she's done this kind of disciplinary action before?

Originally Posted by dkellis

This is operating under the assumption that Nanoha shot that second blast to stop Teana. There was no need, in that situation, for Nanoha to tell Subaru to keep watching. What did Nanoha want Subaru to take from this? What message did she want to convey, and why didn't she explain it explicitly? Not the cause for the stopping of the mock-battle, but the cause for that second shot?

But if Nanoha intended the second shot to be a lesson all along, well, that's her prerogative as an instructor, whether regulation-correct or not. I'd like there to be some consequence if it turns out not to be regulation-correct, but I wouldn't complain if there weren't, since, well, the TSAB seems to be fairly lax anyway. (Yeah, I'm used to plot holes.)

See your post:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=238

Considering Subaru is just as responsible for the action as Teana, as they are both a co-ordinated pairing, forcing Subaru to watch is both a reminder that every action has a consequence - Nanoha: "This is the end of the mock-battle for today. You were both "shot down and terminated" - and that, if anything, they should both consider their roles and how they function as a group, because if anything, Teana seems intent on putting people in the line of fire to further her goals (hello episode 7), while Subaru seems pretty compliant and self-destructive, blindly rushing into things without some kind of a plan (see episode 1 end - Teana: "you have thought about how you're going to stop, right??").

Originally Posted by dkellis

Letting emotions rule over logic is a very human fallibility. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

Aside from showing sadness and disappointment, Nanoha was completely emotionless during the end sequence. Somehow I very much doubt that her emotions ruled over her logic in that situation, especially considering just how calculated and controlled she executed her attack.

[FlameSparkZ]

This episode really hit a lot of people...

I think it's pretty obvious that Teana's judgement was clouded, when she loaded the blade on Cross Mirage, she mentioned "Cutting through the Barrier and piercing the Field, one hit should be enough." or something like that...that's just being too serious! and they were doing a mock battle!

In the situation Nanoha was, there was no way she could stop Teana with one hand busy blocking Subaru's attack and the other holding RH...

Therefore she called "Mode Release" RH turned back into the red jewel, and Nanoha stopped Teana's insane attack.

Seeing such recklessness, Nanoha just snapped and from the caring and forgiving instructor, became something much worse than having Vita as an instructor...

Teana was obviously unstable, shouting like that, so Nanoha, like she mentioned, knocked her out to cool down, Subaru would just interfere, so she bound her.

The two shots were needed, one to show how Nanoha's version of Cross Fire hits as a multiple hit attack, and the other was a single hit, which packed a much heavier punch.

Instead of asking why Nanoha did it, look at the expression on her face...it speaks for itself.

[Fuyu no Sora]

Originally Posted by Icarus

You also forget that Teana was in no position to listen to Nanoha before the first shot. Nanoha waited to see the situation pan out, then decided to attack. Nanoha's binding of Subaru has many messages, and we could speculate back and forth what that message is (you put down some good arguments in your post here) but whatever it was, the intent to show both Subaru and Teana what the consequences of irrational behaviour in a possible real-world situation is there.

Given that this is the third screw-up warning for Teana (and the fourth for Subaru, counting when Nanoha swiped her off Wing Road with Raising Heart earlier in the battle), I reckon Nanoha had just about enough, and took Vita's comment at the end of episode 6 into consideration (with her own spin on it). You're in an elite mage unit, in the real world, you don't get three let-offs - you're lucky to get one.



And how are we to know that Nanoha isn't acting logically and rationally in this situation? Somehow I doubt Nanoha wanted to take the risk of binding Teana, especially considering Tea has already demonstrated the ability to use higher-level skills. Risking a bind being broken before backup arrives and a possible counter-attack is not an acceptable option.

In my view, both the "shot to stun, shot to knock out" and the "shot to stun, bind and arrest" approaches are logical, but highly dependent on the situation, and the mindset and personality of the person in charge. Nanoha already mentioned in episode 6 that "if there is time to shout about the small things, there is even more time to teach them things by knocking them down in a mock battle". Perhaps she's done this kind of disciplinary action before?



See your post:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=238

Considering Subaru is just as responsible for the action as Teana, as they are both a co-ordinated pairing, forcing Subaru to watch is both a reminder that every action has a consequence - Nanoha: "This is the end of the mock-battle for today. You were both "shot down and terminated" - and that, if anything, they should both consider their roles and how they function as a group, because if anything, Teana seems intent on putting people in the line of fire to further her goals (hello episode 7), while Subaru seems pretty compliant and self-destructive, blindly rushing into things without some kind of a plan (see episode 1 end - Teana: "you have thought about how you're going to stop, right??").



Aside from showing sadness and disappointment, Nanoha was completely emotionless during the end sequence. Somehow I very much doubt that her emotions ruled over her logic in that situation, especially considering just how calculated and controlled she executed her attack.

This is a nice done summary. And everything pointed out is correct. While Teana's judgement was overcome with emotion, Nanoha's wasn't, therefore proving that she intended to do the actions she did. If you understand the message sha was trying to convey, then good, if not.....

Originally Posted by FlameSparkZ

This episode really hit a lot of people...

I think it's pretty obvious that Teana's judgement was clouded, when she loaded the blade on Cross Mirage, she mentioned "Cutting through the Barrier and piercing the Field, one hit should be enough." or something like that...that's just being too serious! and they were doing a mock battle!

In the situation Nanoha was, there was no way she could stop Teana with one hand busy blocking Subaru's attack and the other holding RH...

Therefore she called "Mode Release" RH turned back into the red jewel, and Nanoha stopped Teana's insane attack.

Seeing such recklessness, Nanoha just snapped and from the caring and forgiving instructor, became something much worse than having Vita as an instructor...

Teana was obviously unstable, shouting like that, so Nanoha, like she mentioned, knocked her out to cool down, Subaru would just interfere, so she bound her.

The two shots were needed, one to show how Nanoha's version of Cross Fire hits as a multiple hit attack, and the other was a single hit, which packed a much heavier punch.

Instead of asking why Nanoha did it, look at the expression on her face...it speaks for itself.

Correction: Nanoha didn't snap. Had she snapped, the medical team would be looking right now for at least an atom of Teana.

[Guppy]

Originally Posted by FlameSparkZ

I think it's pretty obvious that Teana's judgement was clouded, when she loaded the blade on Cross Mirage, she mentioned "Cutting through the Barrier and piercing the Field, one hit should be enough." or something like that...that's just being too serious! and they were doing a mock battle!

Hence Nanoha saying that "a mock battle is not a brawl."

As I understand it, a military mock battle is supposed to be a well-defined learning exercise testing and reinforcing specific skills. Arguably Teana and Subaru didn't take it seriously enough, since they completely disregarded the structured objectives of the exercise and instead turned it into a free-for-all.

Originally Posted by FlameSparkZ

In the situation Nanoha was, there was no way she could stop Teana with one hand busy blocking Subaru's attack and the other holding RH...

Flash Move would've evaded everything quite nicely, I think, but then Subaru might well have gotten hit by accident.

[Fuyu no Sora]

Originally Posted by Guppy

Hence Nanoha saying that "a mock battle is not a brawl."

As I understand it, a military mock battle is supposed to be a well-defined learning exercise testing and reinforcing specific skills. Arguably Teana and Subaru didn't take it seriously enough, since they completely disregarded the structured objectives of the exercise and turned it into a free-for-all.

Flash Move would've evaded everything quite nicely, I think, but then Subaru might well have gotten hit by accident.

Proving once again Teana's recklessness and not planning ahead.

[FlameSparkZ]

Originally Posted by Guppy

Flash Move would've evaded everything quite nicely, I think, but then Subaru might well have gotten hit by accident.

That being the "worse case scenario", Nanoha did what she did because it was the safest option avaliable...

[Klashikari]

well... if we speculate, nanoha could also flash move and bind/catch teana while she is midair ^^"