Macross Frontier 2nd Movie: Sayonara no Tsubasa

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

And how is that related to my question, unless it's to confirm what I was saying?

That's easily answered: Zero's directors gave a fair number of suggestive or romantic scenes where both Mao/Sara and Shin were together. The directors for the Frontier movies did not do this.
It was directed one way: towards Alto and Sheryl.

If you'd watched the movies back (and I mean back-to-back) you jump from one Alto and Sheryl scene to another, even suggestive scenes, and only see one to three scenes with Ranka instead (which was one-sided because the directors cared less for that couple). At least in Zero, they kept suggestive scenes for Mao at the end (like Mao calling out to Shin, him hearing her song, and etc.) but that does not come in the movies of Frontier.

There was no love triangle in Sayonara no Tsubasa. It was clear as day at the end of Itsuwari no Utahime that the love triangle had ended on Alto and Sheryl because the directors gave you that impression. They centered around Alto and Sheryl so much throughout the movie and into the second one, which was mostly about Sheryl again, that you couldn't go near Alto and Ranka if you truly wanted to. They made it drastically clear in the scenes that Alto and Ranka were friends (no romantic growth whatsoever on Alto's side) and Alto and Sheryl were a couple (with drastic romantic growth in 4hrs).

And the pathetic part is... the series was at least decent in triangle growth from all sides of the field (Alto had feelings for both Ranka and Sheryl), but the movies just piss on the fact there's a love triangle.

You are the one who should read what others write more carefully. In all this, you didn't answer my question...

Naw, I read it, and I answered it; but because I never mentioned Zero in my answer or gave a direct comparison, you feel the need to ask for more.

Originally Posted by karice67

I'm not saying you're 'stupid'. I am saying that you have very different standards from the rest of us, at least those of us posting here, of how to interpret popular culture.

I.e. we're long established you're not going to convince me (and many others here) to see your way, I'm not going to convince you to see mine, and no one else here will convince you of theirs either.

So I see no point in discussing it any further, since it's already gone around in circles so many times

Then I take back my "offense" piece. I misunderstood then. But it sounded like that. Perhaps wording it differently would've been wise.

And actually, it's not only me who thinks this way. If all the Alto/Ranka fans weren't banned from here, I'm sure they'd say the same thing: Sheryl dominated the movies and by the end of the 1st, we already knew somewhere inside that Sheryl was the winner just by how the directors and script writers had put her out to be. There was no competition, therefore it wasn't a love triangle. Had they at least balanced the triangle by giving Ranka some scenes that were suggestive in the 2nd movie, then perhaps we all would've seen a possibility of Ranka making a comeback, but unfortunately, it was all Sheryl; and that just disgusts me about the movies. A Macross has a love triangle, not a parallel line with a person standing outside looking in. Otherwise, it ain't Macross. And that's how it was from movie 1: a parallel line with a person standing outside looking in. And Ranka knew it too, which is why she constantly got upset over remembering Alto being kissed by Sheryl.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

That's easily answered: Zero's directors gave a fair number of suggestive or romantic scenes where both Mao/Sara and Shin were together.

No, it didn't. But I'm not surprised you didn't see it that way.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Naw, I read it, and I answered it; but because I never mentioned Zero in my answer or gave a direct comparison, you feel the need to ask for more.

One thing I will never do is ask for more of you, dear. Let's just leave it at that.

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

No, it didn't. But I'm not surprised you didn't see it that way.

You realize that "suggestive scene" means them being together in a scene (like holding a conversation, being rescued, etc.) and "romantic scene" means them doing intimate things (like holding hands, kissing, etc.).

Mao: was with Shin when he first arrived, spent time with him on the island, got rescued often, kissed him once, called out to him which he heard her voice, sung to him as he descended
Sara: was with Shin when he first arrived, spent time with him on the island, got rescued by him, kissed him once, died with him

Both had equal "suggestive" and "romantic" scenes with him where both girls got a chance at his heart.

The Frontier movies had:

Sheryl: meets Alto, got rescued often, went on a long date with him, kissed him on the cheek once, was thought about, told she wasn't alone, was apologized to for failing to save Galaxy, was holding a deep in-depth conversation with Alto about their pasts as professionals, was broken out of jail by Alto mostly, tries to grab Alto's hand but fails and pushes Ranka to him, has flashback of meeting younger Alto, admits herself as said girl, is acknowledged as said girl, is confessed to
Ranka: already knows Alto, gets rescued often, introduces him to Aimo, talks with him in Family Mart, shares in-depth conversation about Aimo, shares one moment of hand holding with him, is told he'll e-mail her later, goes on date with him, confession scene, realizes Vajra hear her song but he's shot down, is rejected

Notice how one-sided the crap is? Look at how many "suggestive" and "romantic" scenes Sheryl had with Alto compared to Ranka. Now look back at all of those scenes and tell me where exactly you felt the directors were going with all of those scenes being laid out. It screamed Alto/Sheryl from the beginning and I wasn't surprised that was the ending.

Hell, they gave it in the fucking trailer, for the love of God. The tear drop scene on Alto's cheek, the excessive Alto and Sheryl moments (or just them individually) completely pushed Ranka out of the picture with the exception of a few scenes. The trailers for the movie barely showed Ranka at all, more Alto and Sheryl than anything else.

[raile]

More whines about the ending and the "lackluster" main couple?

Puh-leeeaaase.

Predictable but it's getting redundant.

Oh yeah, I loved how they animated Sheryl singing Northern Cross and Lion, they made her lips sync to the lyrics perfectly.

Why people keep sucking on sour grapes is beyond me.

[vivitoru]

Mao totally had a legit chance with Shin and people totally bought into that.

Really now, I don't know if saying Mao had a better shot with Shin in Zero than Ranka had with Alto in the Frontier movies speaks volume as a valid argument.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

And the pathetic part is... the series was at least decent in triangle growth from all sides of the field (Alto had feelings for both Ranka and Sheryl), but the movies just piss on the fact there's a love triangle.

Actually, the pathetic part is where a small minority actually thought the triangle was decent.

And of course you thought it was decent, because the ending to the series provided a fait-accompli to the triangle, if nothing else.

But if the triangle was as decent as you like to believe or if the characters were developed in the way you thought was good...

Then Ranka should be on par with Sheryl on the polls. She isn't.

Then there should not be an endless marathon of anti-Ranka posts on 2ch.

Then there should not be angry fans, who bought the BD, cut Ranka's character out and stabbing it with a scissor.

And although Ranka's character had a Chinese name, her character in Chinese speaking regions is treated much worse than here. See, her Chinese nickname is green pubic hair... yeah...

Then there are some of us who thought the triangle was far from decent, but frustrating at best, with Ranka in the way of the goodies. Fortunately, they corrected this trend in the movie. Thank Protoculture.

Hell, I thought Kathy was going to be Sheryl's competition in the triangle. She looked like a Misa-hard ass, that and she er... got a reading off me from... oh... nvm.

- Tak

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

If all the Alto/Ranka fans weren't banned from here,

Huh? Outside of the great Cthulhu ( = BleachOD ), who exactly is banned here?

[Lancel]

Originally Posted by Tak

Hell, I thought Kathy was going to be Sheryl's competition in the triangle. She looked like a Misa-hard ass, that and she er... got a reading off me from... oh... nvm.

I liked Cathy before I liked Sheryl. She was faceted right from the start with her being a young officer with a lot of job pressure, being nice to people because it's her job, and then calling those same people bitches behind their backs. Reasonably competent, too, "Hey! Hey! No more singing, emergency means we get you to safety." And got her out quickly too! Even Alto thought so!

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Lancel

I liked Cathy before I liked Sheryl. She was faceted right from the start with her being a young officer with a lot of job pressure, being nice to people because it's her job, and then calling those same people bitches behind their backs. Reasonably competent, too, "Hey! Hey! No more singing, emergency means we get you to safety." And got her out quickly too! Even Alto thought so!

Unfortunately, her character likability was marred by her brief, but memorable interaction with a certain watermelon...

Fortunately, again, they corrected that in the movie. Thank Protoculture.

- Tak

[MichiNekoChan]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?

It's hard to tell...

Rather belated reply but....

I was agreeing with Maggy, but you managed to post before me. (and I didn't bother to edit it ;/)



Karice - If you managed to finish it up, post it! I still need to show the movie to friends, and would love to use your version.

[Lancel]

Originally Posted by Tak

Unfortunately, her character likability was marred by her brief, but memorable interaction with a certain watermelon...

Fortunately, again, they corrected that in the movie. Thank Protoculture.

- Tak

An unfortunate truth, though I gotta say there were only three discretionary shots in Frontier. Two involved Cathy. >>

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Tak

Actually, the pathetic part is where a small minority actually thought the triangle was decent.

And of course you thought it was decent, because the ending to the series provided a fait-accompli to the triangle, if nothing else.

But if the triangle was as decent as you like to believe or if the characters were developed in the way you thought was good...

Then Ranka should be on par with Sheryl on the polls. She isn't.

Then there should not be an endless marathon of anti-Ranka posts on 2ch.

Then there should not be angry fans, who bought the BD, cut Ranka's character out and stabbing it with a scissor.

And although Ranka's character had a Chinese name, her character in Chinese speaking regions is treated much worse than here. See, her Chinese nickname is green pubic hair... yeah...

Then there are some of us who thought the triangle was far from decent, but frustrating at best, with Ranka in the way of the goodies. Fortunately, they corrected this trend in the movie. Thank Protoculture.

Hell, I thought Kathy was going to be Sheryl's competition in the triangle. She looked like a Misa-hard ass, that and she er... got a reading off me from... oh... nvm.

- Tak

Ranka is still more popular than say, Alto Saotome, in general polls there (the movie made him more likable to the general audience. Did he appear in polls before the movie version?). Or as popular as he is in the Macross poll (she beat Misa's popularity, didn't she in the Macross Ace poll?).

However the Alto/Ranka romance indeed isn't as popular as the Sheryl/Alto. In my experience, her fans in Japan prefer her with Brera. So the Kiss in the Galaxy manga was pretty much Kawamori truly approving an official universe that gives Sheryl fans and Ranka fans the happy endings they wanted (with that hinted double wedding).

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Thess

Ranka is still more popular than say, Alto Saotome, in general polls there (the movie made him more likable to the general audience. Did he appear in polls before the movie version?). Or as popular as he is in the Macross poll (she beat Misa's popularity, didn't she in the Macross Ace poll?).

In most polls, there are both a male & female category, so the answer is yes. In fact, he beat Ranka a few times, much to my amazement. But Thess, this is Macross. If a given singer's popularity does not eclipse that of the pilot... we have a problem

OTOH, Ranka does indeed have her own base... by herself. Though when it gets to the triangle, she gets thrashed, despite individuals harboring some appreciation for her talent. And thats based on personal observation.

However, it would appear that Ranka indeed... has a non-conflicting, even appreciated pairing with Banana supported by Japanese fans... yeah, its incest... but in anime, relatives are fair game.

- Tak

[karice67]

Is it out of the system yet?? Can we move on???

=====

Official Complete Book Interview: Kawamori Shouji
part 1, part 2 and now, part 3.

Spoiler for length:

With this film, the “Macross F” project has reached a stage where you can stop to catch your breath. Until now, how long have you been involved in this project?

It started as a project for the “25th Anniversary of Macross”, and it was 2006 when we had a tangible project. But if we’re talking about plot ideas, I’ve been working on it since “Macross Zero”. We’d originally planned for the series to start in October 2007, but with all the work [that we had], it kept being postponed. We managed to barely make it for the 25th anniversary by broadcasting the Deculture Edition in December 2007. Thinking about it in this way, I guess I’ve been working on it for five years now.

Are there any differences between what you originally planned and the series that aired on TV in 2008?

The outline has largely remained the same, but in the original plan, Michel’s death occurred in the first half of the series – we made organizational changes like that. What was important about this series, “Macross F”, was the notion of “a school-based story with double heroines”, which we’d never done before. Yoshino Hiroyuki, who was responsible for Series Composition, used to be a school teacher, so ‘school-based stories’ are his specialty. On the music front, building on the past and present, we decided to make one an already established star, the Galactic Fairy, with the other a new girl being promoted.

At that stage, had you confirmed that Kanno Youko would be doing the music?

At first, we’d just talked about the possibility of her writing a few songs for us. I never thought she’d end up being this intertwined and writing such [wonderfully fitting] music for us. Certainly, [we’ve been happily blessed with her ability to write songs worthy of the star divas of the galaxy].

Had there been plans for the movies when you were planning the TV series?

Since it’s set in space, I’ve always thought that I wanted to bring it to the big screen. However, once it started on TV, [that possibility disappeared into the background]. I thought I’d better concentrate on the TV series first.

With each Macross series, you’ve ambitiously brought in CG here and there, but now, with “Macross Frontier”, you’ve boldly used full CG for the battle scenes, haven’t you?

Since the time of “Macross Zero”, it’s been possible to use something known as ‘Toon Shading’. However, in order to differentiate it from other CG works at the time, I ended up asking Tenjin (Hidetaka) to add texture. With hand-drawn texture, they don’t look like film or photography, nor do they look like CEL-based animation. We produced graphics that looked like ‘package art’. From a technical perspective, it’s easier to gloss over and hide things with CEL-work. I ventured to set the following challenge: [that if we can manipulate this hybrid CG to make it fly, then we can depict dogfights even with the time restrictions of a TV series, and some of the OVA was produced in that way]. Following that, in “Genesis of Aquarion”, some of the actions of the man-made robot ‘Kerenmi’ were made with CG. We spent many long years preparing to be able to realise another Macross TV series.

And that’s why “Macross Frontier” is the first TV series in 13 years.

Technology has also advanced, and the staff have also been honing their skills, so I felt that it would be unsatisfactory if we didn’t just make something better than “Do You Remember Love?” or “Macross Zero”. As a result, the staff gave it their all, and with “Macross F”, we managed to produce [a series with CG that you would never have expected for TV].

p.s. still two-thirds left of this interview to go

=====

@MichiNekoChan
I'll try to get it done this week sometime. Although maybe a better group will release their version in the meantime!
(btw, I've finally gotten a look at the other major release, and they haven't fixed the major translation problems...orz)

[Tak]

Originally Posted by karice67

Is it out of the system yet?? Can we move on???

You know I love you Karice.

- Tak

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Thess

Ranka is still more popular than say, Alto Saotome, in general polls there (the movie made him more likable to the general audience. Did he appear in polls before the movie version?).

A few times, yes.

[Darthtabby]

Originally Posted by karice67

Are there any differences between what you originally planned and the series that aired on TV in 2008?

The outline has largely remained the same, but in the original plan, Michel’s death occurred in the first half of the series – we made organizational changes like that. What was important about this series, “Macross F”, was the notion of “a school-based story with double heroines”, which we’d never done before. Yoshino Hiroyuki, who was responsible for Series Composition, used to be a school teacher, so ‘school-based stories’ are his specialty. On the music front, building on the past and present, we decided to make one an already established star, the Galactic Fairy, with the other a new girl being promoted.
[

Moving Michael's death to the second half of the series was definitely a good idea -it had more impact that way. Also, is anyone else a bit disturbed by the idea that Hiroyuki Yoshino used to be a teacher given some of the series he's done creative work for? (Macross Frontier is rather tame compared to some of the projects he's been involved in.)

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Tak

In most polls, there are both a male & female category, so the answer is yes. In fact, he beat Ranka a few times, much to my amazement. But Thess, this is Macross. If a given singer's popularity does not eclipse that of the pilot... we have a problem

Roy has always been more popular than Basara (and Alto and Hikaru!)

Speaking on Ranka's popularity, I went to search for Sheryl birthday pics in pixiv and looked at the art amassed.

シェリル・ノーム3758
ランカ・リー3542
早乙女アルト1243

(I didn't consider their names alone because sometimes, in Sheryl's case in particular, for instance, there's a lot of Sheryls accounted. Even if I did, Alto can't touch Sheryl's or Ranka's numbers. I wouldn't say her fanbase is small by any rate. Smaller than Sheryl's? DUH).

Thank you, Karice <3

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by raile

More whines about the ending and the "lackluster" main couple?

Puh-leeeaaase.

Predictable but it's getting redundant.

Why people keep sucking on sour grapes is beyond me.

I could say the same for you.

Originally Posted by vivitoru

Mao totally had a legit chance with Shin and people totally bought into that.

Really now, I don't know if saying Mao had a better shot with Shin in Zero than Ranka had with Alto in the Frontier movies speaks volume as a valid argument.

You completely missed where I said the directors aimed it that way. Just because I add their emotions, I am still meaning towards the people who created the show making their emotions aim that way.

Mao had a fair shot whereas Ranka did not because the footage did not work in her favor ever in the movies. The series, yes; the movies, no. But Zero's footage showed all three characters growing towards one another and then Shin made his choice (even though he had strong affections for both girls). Frontier (the series) showed the same growth but with indecision in the end (from a director's point of view). In the movies, however, they spent 90% of the time building Alto and Sheryl and no Alto and Ranka, therefore the triangle fell apart completely, so why call it "Sayonara no Tsubasa ~ the end of triangle" if there is no triangle? Because Kawamori wanted you to believe there still was.

...

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Huh? Outside of the great Cthulhu ( = BleachOD ), who exactly is banned here?

Then maybe they just don't give a fuck about you guys anymore (and bless them).

Originally Posted by MichiNekoChan

Rather belated reply but....

I was agreeing with Maggy, but you managed to post before me. (and I didn't bother to edit it ;/)

Of course you were.

Originally Posted by Thess

Ranka is still more popular than say, Alto Saotome, in general polls there (the movie made him more likable to the general audience. Did he appear in polls before the movie version?). Or as popular as he is in the Macross poll (she beat Misa's popularity, didn't she in the Macross Ace poll?).

However the Alto/Ranka romance indeed isn't as popular as the Sheryl/Alto. In my experience, her fans in Japan prefer her with Brera. So the Kiss in the Galaxy manga was pretty much Kawamori truly approving an official universe that gives Sheryl fans and Ranka fans the happy endings they wanted (with that hinted double wedding).

Agreed.

Ranka is more popular and is easily one of the most lovable characters (for her introduced personality in Ep.1). Alto, however, is more like a female than a male in looks, so therefore they'd be better judging him on a female poll. He also doesn't have a strong personality that people like. If there's something consistent about Macross, it's that people aren't really attached to the male character trapped in the triangle (Hikaru, Shin, and Alto).

As for Alto/Ranka romance, not a lot of people want to admit that they support her. I think the shame of Ep.24-25 brought a lot of people down. I know it did for me. I didn't want them to harm her character like that but Yoshino sunk to the lowest form of hell there is for Ranka... honestly, the lengths they go to just to make you wanna like Sheryl, it disgusts me.

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

@karice67:

thanks for these stuff. ==))