2012-10-06, 11:52 | Link #7641 | |||
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I'm interested in facts. All of the three major potential loves in his life were candidates, but according to the anime, not one of them won the prize (Lelouch). Using pure speculation only (i.e. opinion), Shirley wins in my view because both she and Lelouch are dead. Of course, using purely speculation from the anime we can also say that the only woman who was able to stop Lelouch in his rebellion was Euphie. He did act romantically towards her on Kaminejima Island, and the R2 Guidebook does say he loved her. A big part of his motivation for ZR is to clear her name. Maybe we're all wrong, and as Setsubo Bunny used to say, our boy Lelouch is really screwed up in the head. Quote:
You don't respect the views of others and you've shown that repeatedly here with regard to what other Code Geass fans think Lelouch's feelings/thoughts were. In contrast, I do respect ALL of the other fans, even the Rolo x Lelouch, Milley x Lelouch, Euphie x Lelouch, Kaguya x Lelouch, and Suzaku x Lelouch fans. They are no more or less correct about Lelouch's romantic feelings than the Shirley-, CC-, or Kallen x Lelouch fans; and that has been my point since I first came here. Unless I see something official that declares what Lelouch's feelings/thoughts were towards any of the women (and a few men) who loved him, I'm not going to tolerate declarations of "Lelouch loved A, B, or C" as factual because they aren't. Quote:
Even the love triangle between Minmay, Misa, and Hikaru had a final outcome of Misa and Hikaru going off into the galaxy together with Minmay realizing that Hikaru belongs with Misa. I mention this because Macross Frontier is supposed to mirror the original series. Head writer Hiroyuki Yoshino came right out in Newtype magazine and said that Alto and Sheryl were the offical pairing after the last episode just like Hikaru and Misa were. There are even offical wedding pictures of those two. Spoiler for Alto and Sheryl:
Spoiler for 2nd Alto Sheryl offical wedding pic:
That's far from ambiguous like Code Geass is. Code Geass doesn't have anything close to being that concrete. We don't know what Lelouch's feelings are the way we know what Hikaru and Alto felt towards Misa and Sheryl respectively.
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2012-10-06, 13:38 | Link #7642 | |
thus spoke zarathustra.
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Next thing I know, is that you tell me Jack from the movie Titanic didn't love Rose, because he didn't tell her he did, not even once in the movie. Yet his actions spoke louder. See, hint - actions sometimes speak louder than words. /in b4 you tell me "blah blah Lelouch had Suzaku, what did he need Kallen for?" To which I will reply to you, to ensure that ZR is successful, for two awesome pilots will always be stronger than one. But no, he left her out of it because feelings. Still mad? I guess so.
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2012-10-06, 16:04 | Link #7643 | |||
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They decided not to get into the meat of it as Okouchi points out in the Continue 42 interviews he did in 2008/09. Taniguichi explains that they left that open at the end of the show (Newtype Nov. 2009 issue). That's how I know for a fact there is no official pairing and why I get on the Kalulu-extremists so much. They act like they have some type of inside information on Lelouch's mind and/or feelings, yet when the same methods they use are applied to the two other female leads they get all bent out of shape about it. It's rather hypocritical on their part. Quote:
Lelouch's focus is his rebellion, not women chasing him. Quote:
Normally I wouldn't give a Kalulu the time of day on this issue, but I was feeling feisty this week.
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2012-10-07, 00:18 | Link #7644 |
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He cared for all of them. But in the end romance and Lelouch were not to be. And none of them won, since he died (unless you count Shirley, but since they both died, well.....that's not exactly a happy win there).
Since Lelouch is confirmed to be dead, and it's unlikely they'll ever revisit the Geass verse after ZR, the matter is basically closed. Mayhaps at a later date they'll make an AU film or something where he does get one of the girls (that seems to be a popular thing to do) but that's not now. |
2012-10-07, 13:32 | Link #7645 | ||
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But as far as death goes, we could say that either there is Shirley x Lelouch or (if he's an immortal) C.C. x Lelouch as the final outcome to the story. Quote:
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2012-10-07, 23:37 | Link #7646 | ||
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Last edited by db84x; 2012-10-07 at 23:56. |
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2014-10-25, 12:21 | Link #7647 |
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Since lelouch has been discussed in detail much by others, there is no furthur need to bring up his personal history here.
This discussion aims to primarily address lelouch's motivations and whether he indeed may be dubbed a hero. Personally to me, i harbour no bit of resentment against lelouch. However, i most certainly do not think lelouch can be considered a hero, not even a bit. Throughout the series, lelouch's motivations behind his cruelty are purely that of selfsh intentions. To begin with, he begins his pointless campaign against the empire just to seek revenge against a bitter dispute he had with the empire. No where is it hinted that his intentions were to save the world if you put aside his pretentious rantings about making the world a better place. The series then proceeds, with lelouch losing the meaning behind his actions, only to discover a new ome again. This is yet again proof that he is unfocused on the goal of saving the world, amd is merely using it as a pretext to justify his cruelty to the audience. This is clearly seen in many examples, such as how he literally broke down and stopped his "noble plans" when his sister was presumbly dead. The cliched heroic ending that code geass plays on is merely lelouch realising his mistakes and seeking a way to escape and atone for it. It is no where near heroic, or even sad. Many watching it can only say that he deserved it, though we do wish for a happier resolution, like conspiracy theories about him being alive. Ultimately we need to recognise this somewhat positive feelings arise solely because of our desire for it, and not lelouch being a dark hero that deserved a better end. If you would look at the example of another famous but genuine dark hero, this difference in sincerity is made explicit. Kiritsugu Emiya, the antihero from fate/zero is a more genuine example of a dark hero, where he remains true to his ideology, making painful sacrifices along his path to seeking salvation for all. Also, he remains focused om his task, to the point of being able to reject all power and greed just to pursue his belief in the end. In conclusion, lelouch is not a worthy candidate for the title of dark hero. He strikes me overall as just a manipulative, petty, proud person, though he has the courage to make ammendments for his mistakes in the end, thus preventimg him from beimg considered a villian |
2014-10-25, 13:02 | Link #7648 |
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In the end, there is no universal definition of heroism or villainy. Which is why we can debate this.
I believe we shouldn't be dismissing several of Lelouch's motivations far too easily. I would certainly consider him to be self-centered, in a sense, but he did explicitly and implicitly want to make the world a better place. That wasn't being "pretentious" as you have claimed, since he did take various steps towards the goal. The fact he also had other concerns and interests in mind doesn't change this. Beyond the mere acts of cruelty you mention, he did try to help other people even when it didn't necessarily serve his quest for revenge. It is true that Lelouch has to deal with a number of moments of doubt, when his most personal feelings are involved, but that doesn't mean his actions have no meaning in general. It means he is still a conflicted young man and not a perfect or mature individual, but rather someone who must face challenges and undergo development in order to overcome both his internal and external obstacles. Which he does. I also think your interpretation of the ending is highly subjective, slightly inaccurate and widely open to debate. Lelouch was always aware about the questionable morality of his actions, so that wasn't something he realized only at the end. There was a need to atone at work, yes, but also a desire to actually change the world. This cannot really be denied, even if you might not agree with how the show presented it. Calling it escapism is possible but nevertheless far too simplistic. Beyond that...what is or isn't considered sad is always going to depend on the perspective of each member of the audience and how they connected to the character(s) involved. Kiritsugu Emiya is a very different character and not the only possible version of a dark hero, so the direct comparison is of limited use. Among other factors, he is both older and more mature, in order to explain why his resolve is greater, as well as why his emotions are more reserved. Based on their respective personalities and situations, Lelouch isn't going to be like him. Spoiler for Fate/Zero:
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2015-01-31, 14:28 | Link #7649 |
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I just loved this series (just finished it - first time watcher). I really liked Lelouch's character. I might go as far as to say that other than the story, Lelouch's character big-time won me over and pretty much was the catalyst to me watching the series all the way until the end.
Another series (non-anime) I like is Breaking Bad, and Lelouch's character really reminded me of the main character from that series but even more complicated. I tried really hard to find facts that would explain some things. I could only really find a few interviews with the creators and the guide book. My conclusion is that he died. I mainly came to that conclusion because it fit well with the story. It didn't seem conceivable to me that he would keep living. Dying gives him somewhat of a stronger purpose and it's a fitting outcome. And then I found the interview with Okouchi where he mildly stated that Lelouch was meant to die. And I mean, it's just my opinion but I think it fits. I can't fathom an R3 starring Lelouch. Good characters, just like good lives, have expiration dates. And about his love life... Well, he always prioritized his missions, his goal, his role as Zero, his revenge - everything of that nature was always first, even arguably against his own sister Nanaly. With Nanaly there was a real love connection - brother / sisterly of course but a love connection nonetheless. I couldn't really feel anything even close to that except with perhaps Shirley. The biggest indicator to me was when she died. Even my favorite tragic canon couples didn't have chemistry that strong in their respective death scenes. I imagine the creators worked diligently to get that scene as close to perfection as possible, and then adding all the other moments up - it just made sense. Now that I think about it it may have even been obvious. But it's certainly not confirmed. Anyways, like GundamFan0083 stated, likewise I'm only interested in canon / factual evidence. To me Lelouch's strongest love / hate struggle was with Suzaku as it was clearly meant to be. It starts with them. It ends with them. But they had a great run and this was a GREAT story. Great stories have to have endings, and I think Code Geass wrapped it up nicely. I don't want to see another season with the same characters continuing in the same realm. But spin-offs or alternate timeline versions would be nice. Last edited by listentoyourunni; 2015-01-31 at 15:01. |
2015-07-01, 18:57 | Link #7653 |
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I think that seeing Lelouch act in a completely different frame of mind as we have in the latest Akito episode was an interesting glimpse into his character. He's equally ruthless and cruel (and grandiose) regardless of what cause he is fighting for. His hatred for Britannia or love for Nunnally is not what caused him to incite genocide in this case. It made me wonder...even if things had played out differently in the end and Lelouch had ascended to the throne without the need for Zero Requiem...would he have really ruled much differently than he did with Zero Requiem?
Does Lelouch even know how to rule (read: control a population) without fear? Rule by terror is Lelouch's default. He's never even made an attempt to control by any other means.
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2015-07-08, 04:23 | Link #7654 | |||
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Also, him being brainwashed into becoming Julius makes him an even bigger universal chew toy. And Suzaku an even bigger hypocrite. |
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2015-07-08, 10:25 | Link #7655 | ||
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Instead, I will just link to a rather interesting analysis here from a completely different standpoint that finds the conclusion fitting regardless of the alive/dead status of the character. I wouldn't be surprised if you disagreed with that one too, especially if you are allergic to incorporating the show's transparent homoerotic subtext, but it is an example of how there can be alternate interpretations that are well constructed and supported by the source material. Quote:
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2015-07-09, 01:54 | Link #7656 | |
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2015-07-09, 23:01 | Link #7659 | |
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The fact that he's brainwashed is the part that's revealing of his character. The fact that his methodology and execution is the same regardless of what his motives are suggests that his default is terror no matter what the situation is. Even if his experiences are completely altered from the ground up, his character doesn't change. Bloodless? Just because he didn't personally strangle anyone doesn't mean it was bloodless by any means. I don't know about you, but I saw an entire city in flames with mass riots completely beyond control. Lelouch never personally gets any blood on his hands, he always creates a human machine that does it for him on a grand scale.
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2015-08-01, 21:26 | Link #7660 | ||
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