Character Discussion - Suzaku

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

Eliarine
yes
it think it was a last minute change since the whole plot of the season was leading to the point where they would end up as mortal enemies
ep 17 was the start for lelouch
ep 18 showed that he clearly wanted suzaku dead
and ep 19 showed that suzaku himself has changed and was ready to do what ever he had to FOR HIS OWN GAIN
and then suddenly they team up despite the deaths of euphie sherly and nunnaly
they pulled a 180 for no logical reason

Their staying mortal ennemies until the end because of misunderstandings would have been pretty lame in my opinion. I think their teaming up was foreshadowed from the beginning.

And your "no logical reason" is called Shirley.

[Train Samurai]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

lelouch can order someone to kill themselves and they would smile while doing it
it does not matter how strong you are or how much resolve you have
in the end you would do exactly as he says (nunnaly actually found the will to over come charles geass, but not lelouch's)

Eliarine
yes
it think it was a last minute change since the whole plot of the season was leading to the point where they would end up as mortal enemies
ep 17 was the start for lelouch
ep 18 showed that he clearly wanted suzaku dead
and ep 19 showed that suzaku himself has changed and was ready to do what ever he had to FOR HIS OWN GAIN
and then suddenly they team up despite the deaths of euphie sherly and nunnaly
they pulled a 180 for no logical reason

Except for witnessing humanity ceasing to exist by two deranged nobles. you would think they would of put there differences aside for that reason alone
As for 17, 18 and 19 they were pure misunderstanding in events thanks to Kanon and Schienzel who basically triggered the disaster, they would have worked together for their own purposes if it wasn't for the interruption because Nunnally life was at stake at the time. So them working together isn't anything new since alot of us knew that they would eventually reconcile.

[bladeofdarkness]

so after lelouch admitted to have killed euphie for his own reasons
after suzaku killed nunnaly
and after both had a mental breakdown (suzaku seemingly losing his morals and lelouch choosing to go kill himself in a mission)
THAT was the point where they would sit down and have a heart to heart about the fate of the rest of the world

[Train Samurai]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

so after lelouch admitted to have killed euphie for his own reasons
after suzaku killed nunnaly
and after both had a mental breakdown (suzaku seemingly losing his morals and lelouch choosing to go kill himself in a mission)
THAT was the point where they would sit down and have a heart to heart about the fate of the rest of the world

1- Suzaku realized himself that even after Euphie and before Shirley died that they never disclosed Lelouch was Zero so obviusly he figured Lelouch never intended to kill neither of them. This was all in Turn 21
2- They BOTH saw that they were responsible for what happened and in the end sought out a way to change it,
3- Well blade if you found out you killed 10 million people and lost everything you ever cherished in the front of your very eyes because of your actions you too would want to reevaluate yourself

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Train Samurai

1- Suzaku realized himself that even after Euphie and before Shirley died that they never disclosed Lelouch was Zero so obviusly he figured Lelouch never intended to kill neither of them. This was all in Turn 21
2- They BOTH saw that they were responsible for what happened and in the end sought out a way to change it,
3- Well blade if you found out you killed 10 million people and lost everything you ever cherished in the front of your very eyes because of your actions you too would want to reevaluate yourself

he did do that
and he came to the conclution that after all that he cant afford to be wishy washy anymore and would have to do what ever he has to in order to gain what he was after (KoO)

[Train Samurai]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

he did do that
and he came to the conclution that after all that he cant afford to be wishy washy anymore and would have to do what ever he has to in order to gain what he was after (KoO)

So what are you trying to get at? Are you saying he shouldn't have and that crazy laughter should have been a sign or something, perhaps Bismarck words when they clashed swords should have swayed him or the friendship he shared with Gino should have brought him back to his old self. They were all pretty much pointless.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Train Samurai

So what are you trying to get at? Are you saying he shouldn't have and that crazy laughter should have been a sign or something, perhaps Bismarck words when they clashed swords should have swayed him or the friendship he shared with Gino should have brought him back to his old self. They were all pretty much pointless.

he should have ended up as shnizel's dragon
the crazy laughter was the point where he should have become a real antagonist for lelouch rather then this on again off again thing that they had (even shnizel commented on it)
it made sense for him to join forces with shnizel as the new ruler of britannia (and become the new KoO)
they were allys before
and ep 20 showed that shnizel agreed to his request and was willing to give him what he wanted
why then does he throw it away to hook up with lelouch when he could have offed lelouch and gotten on even better terms with shnizel

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

he should have ended up as shnizel's dragon
it made sense for him to join forces with shnizel as the new ruler of britannia (and become the new KoO)
they were allys before
and ep 20 showed that shnizel agreed to his request and was willing to give him what he wanted
why then does he throw it away to hook up with lelouch when he could have offed lelouch and gotten on even better terms with shnizel

Well there's the problem.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

Well there's the problem.

how is that the problem
would it have been less logical on his part then suddenly joining up with lelouch WITHIN HOURS of him choosing to join shnizel and do what ever it took to gain the title of KoO

[Train Samurai]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

he should have ended up as shnizel's dragon
the crazy laughter was the point where he should have become a real antagonist for lelouch rather then this on again off again thing that they had (even shnizel commented on it)
it made sense for him to join forces with shnizel as the new ruler of britannia (and become the new KoO)
they were allys before
and ep 20 showed that shnizel agreed to his request and was willing to give him what he wanted
why then does he throw it away to hook up with lelouch when he could have offed lelouch and gotten on even better terms with shnizel

That trial and error thing was what really diminished his character, that much I'll agree with. Everything else, meh, just go back to episode 21, I'm not sure how being with Schienzel would have changed anything but seal his fate and in the end they need someone strong on Lelouch's side since he lost his army and there is so much you can do with an army of geass soldiers to pit up against strong KMF.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

how is that the problem
would it have been less logical on his part then suddenly joining up with lelouch WITHIN HOURS of him choosing to join shnizel and do what ever it took to gain the title of KoO

So you're saying they should've had Suzaku kill Lelouch and end the series right there, infuriating countless fans?

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Train Samurai

That trial and error thing was what really diminished his character, that much I'll agree with. Everything else, meh, just go back to episode 21, I'm not sure how being with Schienzel would have changed anything but seal his fate and in the end they need someone strong on Lelouch's side since he lost his army and there is so much you can do with an army of geass soldiers to pit up against strong KMF.

lelouch should have been in the middle playing both sides to his advantage
it should have been shnizel's britannia vs the UFN with lelouch playing both sides
not lelouch's britannia vs the UFN

Rising Dragon

he should have tried to

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

lelouch should have been in the middle playing both sides to his advantage
it should have been shnizel's britannia vs the UFN with lelouch playing both sides
not lelouch's britannia vs the UFN

Rising Dragon

he should have tried to

When it comes to Suzaku, there is no try. He either does or he doesn't; Lelouch is in no condition to prevent him.

[Train Samurai]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

lelouch should have been in the middle playing both sides to his advantage
it should have been shnizel's britannia vs the UFN with lelouch playing both sides
not lelouch's britannia vs the UFN

So you basically wanted him to be the Wang Liu Ming of Code Geass
That's not bad actually, would have worked with the whole chess theme (which was mostly abandoned at that point)

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

When it comes to Suzaku, there is no try. He either does or he doesn't; Lelouch is in no condition to prevent him.

if he was ment to be his enemy (as the logical plot progression would have him become) the plot would have presented lelouch with a way to escape
and him having the shinkiro while suzaku had no KMF would make it rather easy
he just had to get to it

So you basically wanted him to be the Wang Liu Ming of Code Geass
That's not bad actually, would have worked with the whole chess theme (which was mostly abandoned at that point)

i still dont get what the point with that chick is
but in lulu's case it would have worked better
he has people in the UFN he could have used, kallen kaguya xing-ke
and he could use his geass on who ever he needed to inorder to get both parties to dance to his tune

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

if he was ment to be his enemy (as the logical plot progression would have him become) the plot would have presented lelouch with a way to escape
and him having the shinkiro while suzaku had no KMF would make it rather easy
he just had to get to it

Yep... completely disregarding the fact that Suzaku can run four times as fast as Lelouch, who has little strength and no stamina. Are you forgetting that Suzaku decided that, even though he was against Lelouch, Lelouch was better than Charles? And then when that crisis was over, Suzaku was gonna kill Lelouch anyway, for being Euphie's murderer? And that they had an entire month to reconcile?

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Yep... completely disregarding the fact that Suzaku can run four times as fast as Lelouch, who has little strength and no stamina. Are you forgetting that Suzaku decided that, even though he was against Lelouch, Lelouch was better than Charles? And then when that crisis was over, Suzaku was gonna kill Lelouch anyway, for being Euphie's murderer? And that they had an entire month to reconcile?

and thats the problem
they shouldnt have had that month
suzaku should have been after lulu's head from the word go
he just had his life changing breakdown and he just sealed the deal with shnizel (and killed the emp too, or atleast thats what he'd tell shnizel)
why risk all that to join a man who should have been his worst enemy (with plenty of reasons for him to be) and start on a path that would plunge the world into all out war when he could just as easily handed shnizel lulu's head
got the KoO title
and ruled as the KoO under shnizel (who at that point was close to signing a peace deal with the OOBK thus ending the war

[Train Samurai]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i still dont get what the point with that chick is
but in lulu's case it would have worked better
he has people in the UFN he could have used, kallen kaguya xing-ke
and he could use his geass on who ever he needed to inorder to get both parties to dance to his tune

Spoiler for what I'm getting at:

Wang Lui Mei is a supporter of Celestial Being mostly in name. To this end, Lui Mei has been shown to provide valuable intelligence to not only Celestial Being, but also to the organization's enemies. She believes that by pitting both sides in life or death scenarios, someone with the power to create true change will emerge from the ashes.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Train Samurai

Spoiler for what I'm getting at:

Wang Lui Mei is a supporter of Celestial Being mostly in name. To this end, Lui Mei has been shown to provide valuable intelligence to not only Celestial Being, but also to the organization's enemies. She believes that by pitting both sides in life or death scenarios, someone with the power to create true change will emerge from the ashes.

thanx
i always assumed she was there to have another hot babe who keeps changing outfits

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

and thats the problem
they shouldnt have had that month
suzaku should have been after lulu's head from the word go
he just had his life changing breakdown and he just sealed the deal with shnizel (and killed the emp too, or atleast thats what he'd tell shnizel)
why risk all that to join a man who should have been his worst enemy (with plenty of reasons for him to be) and start on a path that would plunge the world into all out war when he could just as easily handed shnizel lulu's head
got the KoO title
and ruled as the KoO under shnizel (who at that point was close to signing a peace deal with the OOBK thus ending the war

Because Lelouch's idea for world peace grants a future, and is a lot less bloody than Schneizel's idea for world peace, which doesn't grant a future. Oh, and because with Lelouch's plan, Suzaku would still get his revenge for Euphie.