2009-08-21, 10:10 | Link #5021 | ||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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if you want a good example i'll give you griffith from berserk (hope you've seen it, if you havent, see it) he has a place he wants to get to but the problem is that to get to the castle he needs to pave the road and the only thing he can pave the road with is dead bodies its like the eunichs asked him "do you watch out so that you dont step on ants while you walk" "dont you throw away the paper you wipe your ass with" he ends up with a similer mentality at times Quote:
he would burn the world to ash for nunnaly's sake
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2009-08-21, 10:20 | Link #5022 | ||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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Lelouch's problem is that he can't decide what is more important: the individual or the overall happiness. He's stuck somewhere between S1!Suzaku and Schneizel, being mostly ruthless, but still not using every weapon at his disposal and believing he is "sinning". He contradicts himself. But he does care about the "ants" he is trampling. Sentences like "a game of chess with lives at stake" or "no one has to die if I mess up here" show that very clearly. It's not like sits back and watches other people die for him. He risks his own life, too, and he beliefs in what he is doing. Quote:
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2009-08-21, 10:25 | Link #5023 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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trampling over some ants because he wants to make the anthill a different shape... not so much and that is the crux of Z-R its not simply about saving the ant hill its about CHANGING it to better suit the wishes of ONE SINGLE ANT (while killing who knows how many others) lelouch isnt the human who steps on ants he's one of the ants himself
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2009-08-21, 10:38 | Link #5024 | ||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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Not to mention that if Nunally was merely an excuse, as you seem to believe, it was his own wish to change the anthill so that more ants can be happy from the very beginning. ...Damn, ants are beginning to scare me. xD Quote:
Does it make a difference?
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2009-08-21, 10:43 | Link #5025 | ||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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the ant of which i speak is not nunnaly the single ant of which i speak is lelouch himself the entire anthill must be reshaped (destroyed and recreated) , and countless ants trampled so that it would better meet the demands of a single ant called lelouch Quote:
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2009-08-21, 10:49 | Link #5026 | ||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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It's his sense of justice as well as his love for Nunally that drive him. Quote:
A world with a place for the weak in it wouldn't only have been a world for Nunally.
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2009-08-21, 10:58 | Link #5027 | ||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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he wants to re-create it which is alot more destructive Quote:
not talking about nunnaly as the ant lelouch is he wanted to change the world to better meet HIS demands would it benefit people, sure if you are willing to exclude all those who he would personally have hurt or killed and all those people who cared about them who had their lives ruined by their loss
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2009-08-21, 11:06 | Link #5028 | |||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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And everyone can only do what they think is right. Let Britannia stay in power, destroy your life, your sisters life, million lives all over the world, or be ready to make sacrifices, in the form of your own life as well as in the form of other lives. Quote:
I think it would have been horrible to let Britannia stay in power, but at the same time, I believe individuals are still incredibly important. So I think Lelouch did something horribly wrong, but would also have done something horribly wrong if he hadn't, and I can't judge him - not even on a purely moral level -, because like he himself, I'd set impossible standards for him. Edit: Bad spelling mistake... bad!
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Last edited by Nogitsune; 2009-08-21 at 11:17. |
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2009-08-21, 11:34 | Link #5029 | |||||
yare yare..
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
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I would call a person who has sacrificed himself so that people could have better lives in the future a hero. If Lelouch was truly a villain, he wouldn't at all performed a self-sacrifice. Also, it is misleading because I find your words very contradictory. But nevermind. Quote:
First, you said I can't treat him as a hero. But I can. Next, you asked who gave him the right to decide. Yet the point was he did decide that he turned into a villain, and Suzaku a hero. Therefore I don't know. Himself, I guess? Or the scriptwriters? Finally, you stated that you couldn't grasp my concept. Therefore I said that you don't have to. Which part of all of my replies constitutes of "because I say so"? Quote:
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..which is why I said Lelouch was able to decide who is the hero and who is the villain. Through Zero, he made himself an unknown hero. Through Zero Requiem, he made himself a villain, and turned Suzaku into a hero by making him wear the mask of Zero. Quote:
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2009-08-21, 14:04 | Link #5031 |
The black angel
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In Dalaran making laps around the city.
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I prefer to look at Lelouch from a very different point of view. Lets say for arguement's sake that eventually the real truth of Lelouch's actions was common knowledge. How would the general population of the world view him? I think that depends A LOT on how long ago ZR was.
The people who's lives he ruined will probably never forgive him for the most part. Wait 300 years and I bet the average person wouldn't care. They wouldn't think about it. Lelouch was some name from history class. But in those history books i'm pretty sure they would call Lelouch a hero, seeing as how he did save the world and the people of that day wouldn't be alive without him. In the end he killed the hopes and dreams of many, but because of him the human race can live on and the next generation can have their own hopes and dreams, and maybe, just maybe, the world will be a better place for that next generation. |
2009-08-21, 14:06 | Link #5032 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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no one knows about shniezl's plan
there wouldnt be anything that lelouch saved the world FROM in the history books none of the logic you apply to it would ever happen because no one knows WHY lelouch did what he did
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2009-08-21, 23:00 | Link #5033 |
The black angel
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In Dalaran making laps around the city.
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That was exactly my point. I was talking from the point of view of the real truth somehow getting out. Maybe Suzaku spills his guts on his death bed or something. It doesn't really matter how it happens my point remains the same. I believe I said what I was talking about at the start of my post.
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2009-08-21, 23:10 | Link #5034 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
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But he sacrificed untold amounts of people going from at least 10,000 to more likely in the millions. Also the reason he sacrificed himself was less because it had to be done (most if not all the deaths from Zero Requiem could have been averted through diplomacy), but to soothe his own guilty consience. He didn't sacrifice himself he commited the world's largest murder suicide. |
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2009-08-21, 23:37 | Link #5035 |
Spinning Lotus
Join Date: Jul 2008
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There's no way its in the millions. Thousands, sure, but not millions. It's not like he went on a killing spree after winning, which would be necessary to reach those kinds of death tolls.
The only person with kills into the millions is Suzaku, and he didn't even want to do it.
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2009-08-22, 00:14 | Link #5037 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
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How else do you think he became so hated? Cancel Casual Fridays? |
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2009-08-22, 02:26 | Link #5039 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Make them worship Lelouch as their savior? Yes Do you honestly believe the average commonor likes the nobles? I mean as horrible as the nobles are to Japan do you honestly think that their actions are any better to the commoners of Britannia. In fact when Lelouch weakens the power of the noblity his hailed as a hero by the Britannians. Keep in mind that given the power of the nobility in this series the average Britannian has probably little rights. Given Lelouch and Charles actions the Magna Carta probably doesn't even exist and neither does Parliament. There doesn't seem to be a limit to Charles or Lelouche's power. In other words Lelouch must have done something horrible to the Britannia commoners. Propaganda can only take you so far. |
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2009-08-22, 02:58 | Link #5040 |
Spinning Lotus
Join Date: Jul 2008
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I did not say nobles, I said dissidents. There's a difference. Maybe not when he first becomes Emperor, but when he rules the world there certainly is. Dissidents in the second instance would be damn near everybody, and enough kidnapping/secret jailings would discourage people from complaining while putting over the illusion that he was killing them. Even when later released, people would only twist the news negatively.
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