Code Geass R2 - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[Lolipopo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Those are just excuses. The point is, when push came to shove, Kallen didn't believe in Lelouch. If she did, she'd have fought the whole world for him. Shirley did. That's all there is to it.


Compare: Lelouch took Kallen's little group of losers and made them one of the most powerful organizations in the world, liberating her beloved country in the process. OTOH, Lelouch killed Shirley's father and messed with her memories. And still, to the end, Shirley wanted to help and protect him, while Kallen now wants to destroy him.

Did you miss his way to act with her lately ? Treating her as a pawn before staying silent when she is dying to an answer form his part ? Do you think it will be in Kallen's characters to force herself on a man who doesn't want to keep her close to him ?

Kallen isn't some love sick girl, her character as always been shown has the girl with her ideals, ready to every sacrifices to see win her ideals; This guy litteraly spat at her face, blown up her comrades, became the world's enemy, and she should have faith in him ?

Her way to love is better than this imo; cause she loves him, cause she was his knight, she wants to be the one to stop him; She will not let her feelings interfere, and this, as much as she wants to be near of him, as much as she can have resentiment over CC and Suzaku, she wants to fight the guy she loves cause in her eyes, he is wrong.

Lelouch refused to give her his faith (whereas her Guren is hax, whereas she is an ace...it's not some lack of faith there, it's more than this btw), he is paying this right now; Kallen could have figured he wished to preserve her but I don't think she could be this much presomptuous when the guy was like an android in front of her.

I wasn't a Shirley fan, there got to be reasons why. The guy killed her father and she forgive him...I don't really buy this kind of attitude and this is not what I want from Kallen.
Shirley was able to push her love to him above anything else, Kallen can't. It's not in her nature, and she is wearing responsabilities over people who trust her.

Putting her duty above what she wants, isn't a bad way to act to me. Not at all. Especially when what you want is being with a guy who is acting evil, hard to figure what to do.

[pokeu]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

or.....
kallen beats suzaku (making him eject) then gets to the garden on the roof where they are talking with the guren
prevents lelouch the options of either
a)running away
b)taking the remote by force form nunnaly
c)using his geass
d)lying to both of them about his actions (since nunnaly can detect lies)

lelouch has to tell both of them the absulot truth about what ever his plan is
and if kallen wants to ask "why didnt you let me in on the plan" (perfect spot for the gum line)
if the reasons are good enough she gets them both off the damocles
if not then she saves nunnaly and leaves lelouch there (the lyrics of her song, living on with his part of life)

To beat Suzaku and force him to eject is going overboard there... especially with his eons ago geass power.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

she has no reason to belive in him at this point
and neither do you if you heard that he told C.C he's willing to kill nunnaly for the plan

Nunnally's on the side that drops nuke on civillians. I damn well hope he's ready to kill her... though I actually have my doubts on that point. But hell, hand me the gun, I'll kill her myself.

kallen wants to put down the rabbid dog that was once the man she loved
and he has given her a great deal of reasons to believe that this is the case

Rabid dog? She doesn't know what he's doing, and she knows she doesn't know. She just decided he was a rabid dog... Which makes me think of a French proverb: "Qui veut tuer son chien l'accuse de la rage" (who wants to kill his dog starts by calling it rabid).

It wouldn't be the first time he does something apparently crazy for the sake of some later victory... But she just decided not to believe in him any more. I don't necessarily blame her, but I do think it torpedoes the claim she loved him more than anyone. Shirley and Rollo definitely have her beaten, there. And I also think she's responsible for her own choice of not believing in Lelouch. Screw her "responsibilities" - that's just a fancy way of saying she let others decide for her. Life doesn't work that way. Everyone's got his or her own conscience and beliefs.

Originally Posted by Lolipopo

Did you miss his way to act with her lately ? Treating her as a pawn before staying silent when she is dying to an answer form his part ? Do you think it will be in Kallen's characters to force herself on a man who doesn't want to keep her close to him ?

I'm not saying she should force herself on anyone. I'm saying she doesn't believe in him. Whether that's right or wrong, it just shows the limits of her love.

Kallen isn't some love sick girl, her character as always been shown has the girl with her ideals, ready to every sacrifices to see win her ideals; This guy litteraly spat at her face, blown up her comrades, became the world's enemy, and she should have faith in him ?

You mean the comrades who sold him out because they were shitting their pants in fear of Fleija? She was ready to face the bullets with him... before he lied to her to protect her. Even if she believed the lie then, she should have realized what it was about. Heck, I think she did. But still she believes he's turned "evil".

Her way to love is better than this imo; cause she loves him, cause she was his knight, she wants to be the one to stop him; She will not let her feelings interfere, and this, as much as she wants to be near of him, as much as she can have resentiment over CC and Suzaku, she wants to fight the guy she loves cause in her eyes, he is wrong.

That would be a lot more admirable if she didn't follow someone she should know is worse instead. And, as I said, it's nice that she wants to stop her - but it also shows how little she believes in him. She doesn't know why he does what he does. She just decided it was wrong. Why? Because she couldn't imagine some other reason to act that way?

Lelouch refused to give her his faith (whereas her Guren is hax, whereas she is an ace...it's not some lack of faith there, it's more than this btw), he is paying this right now; Kallen could have figured he wished to preserve her but I don't think she could be this much presomptuous when the guy was like an android in front of her.

On the contrary. She should know by now what kind of guy Lelouch is - a big, fat liar. But yes, Lelouch, too, made a mistake in not including her. I guess it goes to show the limits of his love?

I wasn't a Shirley fan, there got to be reasons why. The guy killed her father and she forgive him...I don't really buy this kind of attitude and this is not what I want from Kallen.
Shirley was able to push her love to him above anything else, Kallen can't. It's not in her nature, and she is wearing responsabilities over people who trust her.

Putting her duty above what she wants, isn't a bad way to act to me. Not at all. Especially when what you want is being with a guy who is acting evil, hard to figure what to do.

As I said, "responsibilities" are just an excuse. Kallen, and Kallen alone decides who and what she believes. Sayoko did. So did Gino. Or Lloyd and Cecile.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by pokeu

To beat Suzaku and force him to eject is going overboard there... especially with his eons ago geass power.

not that overboard

Rabid dog? She doesn't know what he's doing, and she knows she doesn't know. She just decided he was a rabid dog... Which makes me think of a French proverb: "Qui veut tuer son chien l'accuse de la rage" (who wants to kill his dog starts by calling it rabid).

when your dog starts brainwashing an entire army of people to be his slaves
conquers japan
takes the UFN leaders hostage and uses them as a human shield
and says he's willing to kill his little sister (who he was doing all the crazy things for in the past)
then hes rabid (and very impressive for a dog)

[attobyte]

Honestly, both Kallen and Suzaku are far more than lethal as fighters so I don't seen a winner without the death of the loser.

[Revolutionist]

The only rabid dog at this point is Kallen. Don't give me that crap about fighting for love, or to stop her loved one. She's got no idea what ZR is, she's got no right to stop anything. She even said she doesn't care if she wins or loses, wtf? That means she doesn't care about the future and is just stuck on the past/present.

Her goals are no longer noble, she's just fighting for her own ego/satisfaction. This won't allow her to win, she will get disabled or killed. Hopefully though, Suzaku can slap some sense into this little bitch before resorting to killing her.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by attobyte

Honestly, both Kallen and Suzaku are far more than lethal as fighters so I don't seen a winner without the death of the loser.

if it come down to a "sword over head" moment
i could see kallen sparing him (to make up for ep 15, when he didnt use refrain on her)
but it has to be a total win for her to reach that kinda momant and thats unlikely

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

The only rabid dog at this point is Kallen. Don't give me that crap about fighting for love, or to stop her loved one. She's got no idea what ZR is, she's got no right to stop anything. She even said she doesn't care if she wins or loses, wtf? That means she doesn't care about the future and is just stuck on the past/present.

Her goals are no longer noble, she's just fighting for her own ego/satisfaction. This won't allow her to win, she will get disabled or killed. Hopefully though, Suzaku can slap some sense into this little bitch before resorting to killing her.

whos fault is that then
and at this point she was talking about C.C who she doesnt care if she beats since shes not the one shes after
and if anyone is going down its suzaku at this point (not killed mind you)
we know kallen gets to lelouch next ep

[pokeu]

Originally Posted by Lolipopo

Did you miss his way to act with her lately ? Treating her as a pawn before staying silent when she is dying to an answer form his part ? Do you think it will be in Kallen's characters to force herself on a man who doesn't want to keep her close to him ?

Kallen isn't some love sick girl, her character as always been shown has the girl with her ideals, ready to every sacrifices to see win her ideals; This guy litteraly spat at her face, blown up her comrades, became the world's enemy, and she should have faith in him ?

Her way to love is better than this imo; cause she loves him, cause she was his knight, she wants to be the one to stop him; She will not let her feelings interfere, and this, as much as she wants to be near of him, as much as she can have resentiment over CC and Suzaku, she wants to fight the guy she loves cause in her eyes, he is wrong.

Lelouch refused to give her his faith (whereas her Guren is hax, whereas she is an ace...it's not some lack of faith there, it's more than this btw), he is paying this right now; Kallen could have figured he wished to preserve her but I don't think she could be this much presomptuous when the guy was like an android in front of her.

I wasn't a Shirley fan, there got to be reasons why. The guy killed her father and she forgive him...I don't really buy this kind of attitude and this is not what I want from Kallen.
Shirley was able to push her love to him above anything else, Kallen can't. It's not in her nature, and she is wearing responsabilities over people who trust her.

Putting her duty above what she wants, isn't a bad way to act to me. Not at all. Especially when what you want is being with a guy who is acting evil, hard to figure what to do.

Every word you typed there is creating flame. There's lots of draft blowing through it because its full of holes.

If it all boils down to principle... wisdom would prove that Shirley did the right thing, even if she did die. To forgive someone is entirely the will of the forgiver. There was never supposed to be a reason to forgive. The only condition to it was that the forgiven accepts it, and the forgiver gives it entirely out of his or her own will.

The order of the black knight have nobody to blame for the crap that is going on now. Acted evil and bad? If we are arguing in a sense where it is time for Kallen to proove her love to Lelouch... she has failed... so badly... to not have realised... who's sister was nuked. Who's family screwed him over. Who's family was branded 'massacre princess'. Who's country he tried to liberate and 'failed'. Who betrayed who FIRST. On a mere whim of getting wind that Lelouch wanted to rescue his sister first... the OotBK turned on him. Kallen defended him? Didn't see that. Not even after a month later.

If we wanted to speak of who is in the right... the reason why so many of us were vouching for Lelouch was for all the things we know about him. And all of those... Kallen knew too. She knew his sister was nuked. She knew she wasn't geassed (you can argue this out all you like... if since R2 episode 2 that she never trusted him... and you expect Lelouch to trust her, then proove my point for me thank you). She knew C.C. was important to him and that her memmories were lost because of him. She knew so much... and what did she do?

She walked out on Lelouch.

Sure she wasn't a Shirley... but just for that act... its enough

Lelouch was betrayed first... and you are arguing on the point that she is the victim.

To state this... Kallen has just fallen bellow Shirley in my evaluations.

She used to be the will of Lelouch... but that is now taken over by SUZAKU

Shirley used to be his heart... and now he has one.

C.C. was always there by his side in the aftermath... and is still is.

For all we can argue... Kallen has... LOST. So beating C.C. in a KMF fight doesn't matter anymore.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

whos fault is that then
and at this point she was talking about C.C who she doesnt care if she beats since shes not the one shes after
and if anyone is going down its suzaku at this point (not killed mind you)
we know kallen gets to lelouch next ep

Suzaku will not lose, sorry. If anything they'll come to an understanding, or the Guren will crash into Damocles and Kallen will eject and confront Lelouch and Nunnaly. But defeat? nah, he's been getting kicked around by Kallen for most of the season, so it's time for some payback.

[bladeofdarkness]

wait to next ep
and if he does something worth forgiving him then we'll see how she reacts
and sherly was going to tell suzaku about lulu being zero at first

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Suzaku will not lose, sorry. If anything they'll come to an understanding, or the Guren will crash into Damocles and Kallen will eject and confront Lelouch and Nunnaly. But defeat? nah, he's been getting kicked around by Kallen for most of the season, so it's time for some payback.

he has no reason to win against her
the entire reason that gino was there even if he couldnt beat suzaku was to bring in someone who can
besides if suzaku wins then there is nothing there to threaten the plan and hence no tension
which doesnt make for good story telling

and suzaku has no grounds for payback since he did beat gino xing-ke and toudo in the same ep
and hes on the wrong side
he's out of hax cards

[ZeroSama]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

he has no reason to win against her
the entire reason that gino was there even if he couldnt beat suzaku was to bring in someone who can
besides if suzaku wins then there is nothing there to threaten the plan and hence no tension
which doesnt make for good story telling

and suzaku has no grounds for payback since he did beat gino xing-ke and toudo in the same ep
and hes on the wrong side
he's out of hax cards

Er Nunnally still has the Key of damocles and the shield is up so if she fires one and it hits the inside of the shield they all die. Thats enough tension right there.

Oh and Suzaku lost to her in EP 18 forcing him to use FLEIA. Thats plenty of reason for payback. Oh and suzaku is on the right/good side.

[Sinestra]

Not much to say at this point with over 1000 post already. Decent episode a lot of revelations and one massive owning by Lelouch on his brother. No country on the planet has a fighting force left Lelouch has managed to get both sides to wipe each other out. Certain characters personalties still annoy me but this late in the game its really not worth mentioning. I doubt we will see anymore majors deaths in the end, as i remember a article i read by the director some time ago that stated there will not be a lot of deaths in R2 and in the end not many at all and Lelouch will have a happy ending but happy ending can mean so many things.

I do not feel Lelouch and Suzaku will die in the end, they made fade from the political arena starting their lives over. Their deaths would negate all that they have fought for, for them to live with decisions they have made would be more meaningful. I have no clue what Kallen will do in the end and C.C. will be back of course.

Im curious as to what Lloyds final mission is and i am curious as to why Lelouch is going back to using the name Zero. When he Geassed his brother he ordered him to obey Zero and not Lelouch. I wonder if in the end will Lelouch find what he is looking for if he can get pass his sisters CREEPY ASS EYES. Will he and Suzaku be able to return to society after all that has happened or will they be forced to fade away spending the rest of their lives in isolation. Because it doesnt look like anyone is going to spill the beans of what his brother was trying to do. Nina redeemed herself in the end she is still too obessed with Euphy but at least she made her point clear and realized that what Lelouch is doing now is in a way what Euphy wanted. God its funny we have been playing musical alliances for a while now its like everyone is on a different side from where they began.

As for the Black Knights they fought the only way the BK can i still fault them for their lack vision but they are doing what they need to do with the information they have. My biggest problem is actually with Ougi but i have given up on him so no point is dwelling over it.

Over all not a bad episode but i feel R2 has not been as good as R1 imo but still its been one hell of a ride.

8/10

[Narona]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

if it come down to a "sword over head" moment
i could see kallen sparing him (to make up for ep 15, when he didnt use refrain on her)
but it has to be a total win for her to reach that kinda momant and thats unlikely

One more week about that................

Well, I don't think that she will win against suzaku. Me I think that Lelouch will see them and will talk to them by using the command center from the inside of the Damocles.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by ZeroSama

Er Nunnally still has the Key of damocles and the shield is up so if she fires one and it hits the inside of the shield they all die. Thats enough tension right there.

Oh and Suzaku lost to her in EP 18 forcing him to use FLEIA. Thats plenty of reason for payback. Oh and suzaku is on the right/good side.

he lost in the same way she lost to him in ep 2 (with her glassgo)
thats not a loss since its not a battle (its pulling wings off a fly)
might as well say C.C has reason for payback

[pokeu]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

he has no reason to win against her
the entire reason that gino was there even if he couldnt beat suzaku was to bring in someone who can
besides if suzaku wins then there is nothing there to threaten the plan and hence no tension
which doesnt make for good story telling

and suzaku has no grounds for payback since he did beat gino xing-ke and toudo in the same ep
and hes on the wrong side
he's out of hax cards

To make for good story telling... the Guren that has just 'taken out' the Queen would be taken out by a knight in one helluva battle where Suzaku is forced to use his geass. The tension for the WTF is definitely not a relatively predictable "Kallen reach Lelouch without any problems". It would be far greater than that. Why? Because Lelouch is not the same person as he once was. Kallen still is. TOO BAD.

Suzaku has beaten the whole Knight of the Rounds. The KNIGHT OF ZERO will stand UNDEFEATED. He is the KNIGHT OF ZERO after all. That title isn't for nothing. If its to be beaten by Kallen, then the whole show falls apart. No... WTF will have to be greater than that. It either ends in Suzaku's win, or at worst, a draw.

(To draw against a geassed Knight of Zero... )

[Dream_Traveller]

Except C.C., as we know, cares not for winning or losing, blade.

And I can't help but agree with pokeu, here. Even though I've been saying Suzaku will most like win.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by pokeu

To make for good story telling... the Guren that has just 'taken out' the Queen would be taken out by a knight in one helluva battle where Suzaku is forced to use his geass. The tension for the WTF is definitely not a relatively predictable "Kallen reach Lelouch without any problems". It would be far greater than that. Why? Because Lelouch is not the same person as he once was. Kallen still is. TOO BAD.

Suzaku has beaten the whole Knight of the Rounds. The KNIGHT OF ZERO will stand UNDEFEATED. He is the KNIGHT OF ZERO after all. That title isn't for nothing. If its to be beaten by Kallen, then the whole show falls apart. No... WTF will have to be greater than that. It either ends in Suzaku's win, or at worst, a draw.

(To draw against a geassed Knight of Zero... )

her beating suzaku is the only way she gets to lelouch later in the show
and nunnaly is the final boss not kallen
kallen is there to make sure lulu cant geass his way out of it
i dont think she'd kill him right before nunnaly's (now fully open) eyes

[Dream_Traveller]

Er...yeah. A paraplegic girl who can be defeated with either words, snatching the key from her and throwing it out the fucking window, or through Geass, is the final boss.

Have you not accepted that Kallen's an enemy or something? It's her and Nunnally as the last duo. And Suzaku carrying out Zero Requiem with Lelouch makes it clear he's won.