2008-01-18, 03:01 | Link #501 | |||
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I do like this idea for why we don't see barriers deployed on Mid though it seems like a fairly tiddy little excuse for why the barriers suddenly vanished. that said barriers are also fairly clearly at least somewhat taxing to maintain and can be destroyed so when the need for stealth is removed and they won't even get allot of noncombatants out of the area it probably just seem less attractive all around. This likely holds on pretty much any planet with a viable mage population. On another note I also was thinking about you force field idea and think I might have stumbled upon a bit of a sticky wicket in it... Namely I think we can both agree a device when deployed seems to have a mass proportional to it's size yes? And force fields kind of umm... don't. |
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2008-01-18, 04:23 | Link #502 |
"Begin, the operation!"
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I'm guessing it also depends on the Device type itself. Storage Devices I would guess take very little energy to use, since they provide the mage no actual support of any sort. They have no AI (exception: Durandal) other than basic spell function, and so probably just serve as a conduit for spell focus, or something. Armed Devices would be next up, though to me it seems that they would only use power when active. IIRC, Armed Devices don't speak while in passive mode, only in active. Intelligent Devices, obviously, would take the most power, as even in a passive state, they have fully functioning AI and still allow the mage to cast spells. (Note: For those of you who might not know, Wireless Energy Transfer is possible.) Which suddenly brings up another point: Is there really a purpose to Storage Devices? I mean, we see Nanoha cast Divine Shooter without the use of Raising Heart in the first episode of A's, and in the series prior Fate is able to summon her cape without the help of Bardiche. The anime, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong), implies that a Device is required to focus mana for attack. Now, with an Intelligent Device (I'm ignoring the fact that Nanoha and Fate are uber-powerful for this demonstration), there's a good chance they help passively (or actively in Mach Caliber's case), by making adjustment's to a mage's spell before casting it. This goes back to the previous argument of ergonomics. The reason Nanoha doesn't need them is because Raising Heart is not only an Intelligent Device, but probably an advanced Intelligent Device. My reasoning is this (a good bit of this is subjective, so feel free to toss it out the window): Throughout the first two seasons, Nanoha relies on Raising Heart to do a lot for her, including spell casting using the Device as a focus, flight, and adjusting spells like Divine Shooter for her (this last bit is definitely debatable, but I'm guessing the first time Nanoha cast the spell RH did a lot of the homing work). By A's, this has lessened to a degree, and we see Nanoha cast Divine Shooter on her own, with no AI support of any sort (unless you count RH serving as a counting tool ). By StrikerS, she casts Crossfire Shoot and Divine Buster without RH's help (which is now doubling as a PDA of sorts). My point is this: Mages, once they've learned magic to a certain point, can cast spells without the need for a Device to support them. Storage Devices have no ability to support the mage. So what's the need for a Storage Device to exist? Does not having one somehow increase the amount of mana needed for a spell? Do they serve as a focus of sorts? ...then again, it's highly likely I'm completely downplaying the need for a Storage Device. Pseudomatter: ...well okay I didn't think about them being one and the same. But I don't think Devices are ever stated as having a limited amount of matter at their disposal. Really, IMO, it would depend on how much energy a mage can pump into the Device to force it to summon parts. A Device can regenerate itself so long as the mage wielding as power to provide it. It's the same concept behind a Barrier Jacket/Knight Armor. A mage can use it to protect him/herself so long as there's energy to burn. Barrier Spell: I think we can all agree that was only the most useless spell to exist. Like TK said, it's only purpose was so there wouldn't be any civilians running around. Actually, it might be even simpler: They use the Barrier spell because 7arcs didn't want to animate people flipping out (if you'll notice in StrikerS, any surprise by the Gadget Drones has a conspicuous lack of people other than the main characters). And I disagree with the reasoning for using Barrier spells on Mid. To paraphrase TK on the OC thread about 300 pages ago: There simply aren't that many people who can do magic. Okay nevermind I found the post: But then, since we hardly see any civilians, this is a hard thing to judge.
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2008-01-18, 04:59 | Link #503 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Again. Matter = forcefield. Matter = mass. Thus forcefields can have mass. While the nature of magical "particles" is unknown, it is likely that the particle(s) making up magic will have some mass. Otherwise, it'll be hard to explain how they can be trapped into various stationary positions. Remember that the only velocity a particle with no mass can have is lightspeed. |
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2008-01-18, 05:11 | Link #504 |
illusion control
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I'm not sure whether this should be asked in Magic And Tech or elsewhere, but I've been wondering:
What's up with the Abandoned City on Midchilda? It just seems odd that there's an entire city just there, in ruins and abandoned, and there doesn't seem to be any signs of reclamation or squatters. Is there a story behind that? (Other than the obvious "urban combat possibilities without civilians" meta-explanation.) |
2008-01-18, 05:27 | Link #506 | |||
***y translator
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I'll try to list out what I remember from the DVD booklet articles...
EDIT: Actually, all this is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I must be going crazy . For anyone saying that the attacks don't miss or don't need user input, well, Teana's Phantom Blazer attack: Quote:
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About the "Sealed Domain" barrier: According to the article, it's a Belkan barrier spell, where only the "targets that meet the requirements specified by the user" are left behind.
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2008-01-18, 05:34 | Link #507 | |
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Even as a liquid in the macro sense, there's the forcefield of surface tension, and below the surface, there are still inter-attractions even though the molecules are not rigidly held togehter. Even as a gas, not all forcefields break down. For example, the bond between carbon and oxygen in CO2. |
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2008-01-18, 05:39 | Link #508 | ||||||||||||
Adeptus Animus
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Good, good, and what happens when you teleport? Quote:
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Still does not discount the fact that he was ranting about the power in Project F. Erio is a nine-year old who grasps ancient fighting styles and attacks at speeds that even amaze Signum. Vivio is a six year old and already studies magic and flight manouvres. |
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2008-01-18, 06:03 | Link #509 | |||||||||||
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2) If I'm going to do melee, I'll get an Armed Device. At least that will be specialized for lcose in work. 3) Explain to me your theories that make a staff shape device the ideal compromise b/w all the requirements you spit up there. Without trying to paper over weaknesses with unproven magitech - we're discussing the base shape here. Quote:
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Hayate is artillery - the indirect fire variety at that. Quote:
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2008-01-18, 07:16 | Link #510 | |
Truth Martyr
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Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Well, sorry to burst your bubble... but the US and most nations on Earth have been doing it since the 60s. I'm talking about Semi Active Radar Homing. Take the AIM-7 Sparrow. You fire the Sparrow at the target; once fired you continue to maintain lock and send course correction updates. Or the RIM-67 Standard Missile 2 used on Aegis cruisers and destroyers. The Aegis system designates the targets, fires the missiles, then tells the missiles where to go and keeps on sending course corrections. Or the Lock On After Launch mode for the Hellfire missiles mounted on the Apache and the latest Cobras. As the name says: launch first, then lock on. Now, consider that the US military operates in high intensity warfare. Consider that they wargame for the worst possible senarios. And if firing first and then sending course corrections works for them, then it fucking better well work for us! (A note on the Sparrow: Sparrow was replaced by the AIM-120 AMRAAM, which is lock on first, then fire, because this is a better option for dogfighting. However, AMRAAM is capable of receiving targeting data and course correction updates so long as the datalink is active, and thus using those to steer itself to the target with greater precision. Which is to say that you can guide it in semi-manually until you need to bug out, at which point you scram at let the AMRAAM go hunting.) Now, if these can do it, I don't see why RH can't do it. Incidentally, RH DOES have a move whereby it moves Nanoha outta the way. It's called Flash Move. And it's an evasion tactic. As for rifles and stocks: most of my OCs use rifle-shaped devices. On the other hand, they're also barely 20 years removed from actually using guns, before a war of annexation and occupation between their planet and the TSAB.
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2008-01-18, 08:21 | Link #511 | |||||||||
Adeptus Animus
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Give me one good reason why it wouldn't. A pink staff with a red orb held by a cresent certainly apeared when she wished for it, why wouldn't a rifle have apeared had she wished for that instead?
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Of course, one can do this whether they carry a rifle, staff, axe, sword or whatever device they like, but it shows my preffered method of combat. I'll use this instead of a gun, grab a close/long-range weapon combi, and manage to deal well on all acounts instead of just one. Quote:
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Second, while firing magic rounds in several directions is possible with a gun, you can't aim in several directions with a gun. You'll have to rely on self controling the rounds anyway, thereby discarding the aiming advantage of the gun. With your weapons main advantage rendered useless, you might as well have taken a staff. Third, thanks to Nanoha's long-range shot in A's, we already know that having a physical stock or sight present is not a requirement for deadly accuracy even on long ranges. Weapon stabillity does not seem to be an issue (through what methods are theorycrafting, I'll admit) and sights are done mentally. The staff gives more advantages then a gun or rifle, while sacrificing only minor compensatable ones itself. Short recap of the battle: Mach Calibur used Wing Road (considering Wing Road in itself doesn't act as a booster, its more likely Mach Calibur used this to gain friction) kicked away Ginga's aproaching arm, controlled the Wing Road to provide a base from which to kick away the remainder of Ginga's guard and then took control of the knuckle, activated it, formed a fist out of the unconsious Subaru's hand, and used it to punch Ginga. So no, it's not a single spell. It's not even a spell designed for that purpose. Mach Calibur took full control over the knuckle and controlled Wing Road. Not just a 'replay cast' but actually controlled the direction the road was going. When controlling the knuckle (which is not even a part of Mach Calibur, if you recall) she activated it and formed Subaru's hand into a fist, punching with a strength that forced Ginga back. This spells out that devices have the abillity to physically support their wielders. True, it does not prove the existence of an auto-correction feature, but it also renders the excuse of its possible existence being 'baseless' futile. ... I am getting totally confused. Didn't you just say that forcefields are matter? Quote:
"Teleportation: a hypothetical mode of instantaneous transportation; matter is dematerialized at one place and recreated at another " Dematerialized. No longer matter. If its no longer matter, then what is it? Quote:
Speaking of Fate, she can actually be described as melee oriented, but with a fair share of ranged spells. More in the direction of a versatallity expert then a melee expert. Conceded. I really wish the'd have shown us more of what Hayate is actually capable of. Quote:
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2008-01-18, 09:48 | Link #512 | ||||||||||||
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So, if you aim, you might miss but at least you can manuever after firing. If you don't aim and rely solely on command guidance, you save a second or two pre firing (maybe, or did you waste that entering target data?) but lose as you stand there like a statue, with your eyes closed because you don't even have the brainpower left to maintain the broader situational awareness with your eyes. Quote:
1) Accuracy, so it might kill swordsman before he can close? Remember that if he closes, even if you might do somewhat better with a staff, you are still at a disadvantage. Wouldn't doing your best to kill him at your favored distance be a better move? For example, if the effective range of the rifle is 200m, and the staff 100m, then I get twice the time to bust him (and more chances to increase that time further by appropriate extension), and thus avoiding what is ultimately a disadvantageous encounter! If I use a sniper rifle to extend that to 600m (Vice's sniper rifle had some of the highest MVs in the series), then there is little comparison. 2) The ability to have a bayonet, which would at least be a cutting surface. The staff is blunt all the way through. 3) Presumably, if I'm duelling w/ someone with my rifle, I'll be contacting his weapon mostly with my barrel. Based on Bardiche, barrels are not likely to be the core, so even if he slices my barrel in two, I can a) quickly replace it and b) have a chance to shoot him at PB, with the psychological advantage of surprise (since he's just done slicing downwards in truimph). As Fate vs Chrono showed, attacks with surprise, even with lower power, can be decisive. 4) Small point: The fact that I have a rifle means I don't need a half-assed Shooting Mode to give me some of the advantages of a rifle (my melee mode will involve adding a bayonet). That means my rifle may potentially have only one form. I don't know, but all else being equal, having only one form can't hurt its good construction. Quote:
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And did I say "No papering over weaknesses with unproven magitech?" Yes, I did. I might as well say that I can arrange for not only a bayonet, but for my whole barrel to create a magic sword a la Bardiche's scythe (it'll also protect the barrel)! That basically gives me almost a shortsword or shortspear versus your staff in melee. Quote:
The problem with the staff is that it is neither fish or fowl. It clearly does not match up to the rifle. Nor does it match up to the sword. The sword is superior in melee and will be comparable to the staff at range with all the paper overing magitech you are trying to give it. Quote:
Further, it is clearly an improvised measure that more shows the ingenuity of the particular AI then the feature set she was endowed with. Quote:
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By the way, remind me how this section disintegrated into an exchange of character assassinations? Quote:
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2008-01-18, 10:10 | Link #513 | ||||
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While we are talking about the Sparrow, shall we mention the need for it to continue to guide causes the plane to be a relative sitting duck and it is considered a weakness. In theory, if the target is non-maneuverable, an AMRAAM can be completely autonomous LOAL - inertial + ARH. However, that is only true if you allow time to aim (fire control solution), so the correct trajectory and seeker activation points are chosen. Keroko, on the other hand, will just point and shoot (if the WCS has such an override) before this is completed to save himself a few seconds. Thus, he is probably doomed to keep sending correction signals to his missiles (if the WCS even allows this) even if it should be un-necessary, making him a sitting duck. The point of my objection, as you see, is not so much that he wants to use course correction, but that he apparently believes it a substitute for proper initial aiming (fire control solution). Quote:
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2008-01-18, 10:19 | Link #514 |
Sleep beneath the flowers
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lording above all of humanity >;3
Age: 34
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I'm pretty sure whatever Nanoha imagines RH would turn into. She could imagine a giant planet-cracking hammer and it'd turn into one. She'd just probably get crushed by it and die or something. There isn't evidence to suggest a Device cannot turn into any feasiably useable piece of 'weaponry' if its user wills it too. Nanoha picked a staff and a (sort of) variation on her school uniform simply because she was rushed for time and thinked of the first things that came to mind. And I suppose she watched a few magical girl animes or played some of Arisa's games and thought of a staff.
And I don't think the barriers can just be Belkan. Mid-Childan mages (like Yuuno) use them just fine and they don't even recognize Belkan when it was first used. Unless you mean there are two seperate styles of barriers. I always imagined they simply just moved the battlefield a few dimensions over... Since any damage done to a building or street, etc. etc. doesn't effect the real world when the barrier collapses. We know there are well, a lot of dimensions, I don't think I'd be too odd that it'd just push everything into another one where there isn't anyone to get killed. The article that a barrier only allows who its user wants in makes more since then the idea that anyone with magical talent can get in it. If so that suggests that somehow the previously unmagical Arisa and Suzuka have magical talent by the end of A's.
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2008-01-18, 10:42 | Link #515 | |||||
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There have been at least a couple of FanFics (Saint X and Dragonzoid) where it turned out those two had magical powers and of course there's that fanmade manga too. If "only who its user wants in" can get into barriers in general, how did Signum break in in Ep5 A's, Yunno and Fate break in in Ep 1 A's and Yunno and Nanoha in Ep 9 original series... as a rule, those with magic power, enemies or friends can exist, the rest fade. Two ways to deal with that quotation. One, I can say that the "requirements" that are settable is limited to power level (pressure exerted by barrier), thus the two have some latent magic talent that hadn't shown up until now. Two, under my theory, if is actually possible to allow some special exceptions, assuming you can locate them. What you will do is specially and specifically anchor them with your own power, so they cannot be pushed out when you extend your barrier. But while one can understand why Hayate (did she?) and / or Rein wanted Fate and Nanoha dead, why they would specifically target Suzuka and Arisa is plainly unclear, so personally I think one is more likely. |
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2008-01-18, 10:58 | Link #516 | |||||
Truth Martyr
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Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Hell, in a combat aircraft, all the pilot does is designate the targets. It's the computers that give the guidance data... Quote:
I admit that Sparrow made the launching aircraft a sitting duck. On the other hand, to follow the Hellfire example (since it IS LOAL-capable), once the correction signals are sent it's off an away. Quote:
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My position on the rifle/staff debate is that the Mid-Childans use staves because it's what they're used to; the Erusian mages of the OFM's Assault Platoon use rifle-shaped devices because many of them have had experience with conventional weapons, and are more used to rifles than staves. On the subject of scopes... one OC is trying to be Simo Hayha, in that he uses Variable Shot and a sniping spell with iron sights. As for Nanoha's mentally controlled magic balls...essentially, the designers wrote Nanoha has the magical equivalent of a fin funnel/DRAGOON-equipped Gundam. That's what her magic ballshots are, DRAGOON shots. That's why she doesn't really need to point RH at anyone when she uses Accel Shooter. She just fires away and controls them mentally. @Kagerou: Storage Devices are probably cheaper and easier to massproduce. As for purpose... if Intelligent Devices are automatic transmission, Storage Devices are manual. And really, if you're a grunt, you rate an M16. Nobody's gonna give you a HK416 all tricked out Delta Force styles. Or it's like Mobius One getting the F-4 as a noob before he upgraded to the F-22 and the Fighter of Badass and Justice. ...actually, that may be it. Storage Devices are F-4Es. Intelligent Devices are F-16/15. And Raging Heart is an XF/A-27.
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2008-01-18, 11:21 | Link #517 | ||||||||||||||||||||
Adeptus Animus
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Age: 36
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Teana's Dagger Mode is much more viable, and even that is calling upon my SoD. It looks more like a 'crap, last resort' type of weapon then an effective melee weapon. If they had reshaped the handguard just a tad more straight, they'd be more believable. ... Heh. would you look at that. So this is what the other side of the fence looks like. Quote:
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2008-01-18, 11:23 | Link #518 | |
***y translator
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I didn't translate the full article, since I never realized anyone might be interested in the rest of it, but anyways... Do make sure you're using the right terms. The Barrier spell in question is only specifically dealing with the likes of Vita's A's Ep01 barrier, and I assume the one that the Book of Darkness used, not "barriers" in general. Also, it doesn't "let people in" according to the user's specifications, it "leaves people behind" according to those specifications. 封鎖領域 - Sealed Domain A Belkan barrier spell, with a meaning similar to that of a "magic prison". Leaving behind only "the targets that meet the requirements specified by the user", this spell causes a break in Space-time. As shown by the prison in the name, this spell's main purpose is to "prevent targets entrapped within the barrier from escaping". Because of that, it is relatively easy to break in from the outside, but extremely difficult to escape from the inside. So they specifically state that it's easy to get inside the barrier, but don't mention why. They never mention what kind of requirements can be specified, so as to why Alisa and Suzuka got stuck inside, who knows?
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2008-01-18, 11:51 | Link #520 | |||
Sleep beneath the flowers
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Location: Lording above all of humanity >;3
Age: 34
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