2008-01-18, 12:20 | Link #521 | |||||||||||||||||
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MCLOS means you are flying the rounds, which seems to be the mode of employment. That you are using your mind to fly them does not make it cease to be MCLOS. Finally, guided bombs are used in close range, much closer than 100m. Which suggests they have short effective ranges (homing limitation, limitation of command link range?) So I won't be holding out for them in long-range shoots (even 100m). Quote:
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Further, the movements that were involved were broad. It is very ill-suited for fine adjustment of aim. Quote:
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Semi-Automated Command Line to Sight: Nanoha glares at target (if eyes closed, envisions target), Shooters hit based on commands from RH until end of flight. If this mode is common, Vita will not say that it is impossible for her to guide all the Shooters, and RH will not credit her master - RH will be flying the bombs. Thus it is reasonable to assume that the majority of guided shots are not SACLOS. Automatic Command Line to Sight / Command Guidance: Nanoha designates target and fires. She's free to look away. RH flies all the Shooters. (If RH can do this, she won't be asking Nanoha for "Control, please") It also has the objection listed for SACLOS. For extra fun: Semi-Active Homing: Either Nanoha glares at target, or tells RH to illuminate. No guidance signals are sent. Bombs flock like moths to a fire. This AFAIK has never happened. Active / Passive Homing: We won't be able to differentiate these two. Fire and fully independent. Bloody Dagger is supposed to be like this, but is considered vulnerable to decoys. According to the novel, Divine Shooter is supposed to be MCLOS or Homing, with MCLOS being the favored mode of employment. |
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2008-01-18, 12:26 | Link #522 | |||
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By the way, Suzuka and Arisa were quite far out from the center, and that might have helped them ever so slightly as well. |
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2008-01-18, 12:27 | Link #523 | |||
Sleep beneath the flowers
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lording above all of humanity >;3
Age: 34
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This is just some random food for thought but...
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Just thought I'd like to note this and see what it'll make you all think EDIT: Quote:
I also began to note that I think this is the easiest reason: The barriers existed as a lazy way of not having to draw people running around in horror and people dieing in masses from magical battles. Look at MSLN 3 I think where the Jewel Seed is taken by the boy. There is no barrier present but yet during the ENTIRE thing you don't see a single human being who is freaking out and all the trees somehow tore into buildings that no one lived in? Same goes with MSLN 1, the damage caused by Nanoha's battle carried over into the real world. Really. SevenArcs is just lazy.
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2008-01-18, 12:40 | Link #524 | |||
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The fact that they were so desperate to quickly put out the fires suggest that what's burning is the real world. Quote:
As for Ep3, I don't think we saw much details of what was going on in the streets, so focused were we on Nanoha. We know that's the real reason, but that does not a SoD explanation make. |
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2008-01-18, 12:57 | Link #525 | |||
Sleep beneath the flowers
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lording above all of humanity >;3
Age: 34
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You and your... Whatever SoD is.
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2008-01-18, 12:58 | Link #526 | |||||||
Loveable Jerk
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I prefer this from a literary preceptive as well since it makes device damage relevant in allot of these other theories you could nearly blow the thing apart aside from the tiny core and just squint a bit and reform it. That to me is just weak if someone goes all out or isn't careful and gets their weapon trashed in a fight it should matter. Quote:
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I acutally feel quite stupid for not thinking of this rather simple but IMO rather devastating argument before. As far as I’m concerned this is pretty much a slam dunk that destroys the argument devices are made of anything beside solid matter of some sort and not any kind of pesudeomatter force field. Quote:
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An objects apparent solidity we agree that can be replicated with an advanced force field, but mass is something else all together force fields don’t have mass. An object can be “Solid” thanks to a force-feed, but it would still weigh nothing aside from the emitter which in this case we know to be the size of a small piece of jewelry and yet when deployed devices clearly weigh significantly more, then we hear stuff about “light weight” barrier jackets etc. All of this requires the object have mass to make sense, not just solidity and again force fields do not have mass unless they have atomic material stuck in them, in which case we call that “matter”. Quote:
"I've managed to totally ruin my weapon in battle but no matter I'll just squint a bit and it'll be good as new!" *dose so* "Now have at thee!" Quote:
It was as mentioned clearly a plot device that conveniently side stepped a number of issues: -Didn’t need to worry about civilians -Allows the whole secret magical war thing to work -Dose save a bit of time having to animate bystanders and the fleeing masses and every little bit of saved time can be used for something more important. We still need to try and explain it though more so if you like you and me you intend to write fiction set in the verse. That said newer evidence seems to have been brought in into this although as I recall the TSAB grunts used a barrier of their own so clearly the Belkan version isn't the only game in town. Last edited by Tk3997; 2008-01-18 at 13:12. |
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2008-01-18, 18:40 | Link #527 | ||||||||||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Did I do that in the part where you asked me not to? Quote:
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Concidering the frequency of their use, 'secondary' would be pushing the line of the term. before that. You know? The part where she had to use Caro boosted illusions to even escape? Quote:
To return your own argument 'that is only one example' While I agree that Axel Shooter is similar to an MCLOS, you have to remember that these are mental commands, thus not subject to the physical reflexes or even counterfriction wielding a joystick would give you. Making the shot reacts goes as fast as thinking 'go down' and it goes down. |
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2008-01-18, 19:15 | Link #528 | ||||||||||||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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And what happened to the range and speed objections. The distance you most need to aim are distances beyond the known ranges of the guided bombs. Quote:
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From now on, don't tell me it is a dot so I get excited unless it is at most 2px across. And don't call 100m long range. We need to standardize terminology. Quote:
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Further, even if I AGREE that the staff should be the default form, one should think when they are going for the LR mode, it can have a STOCK! Quote:
You see, the staff is the standard weapon for Midchildrans. Thus, for it to be correct, it has to not only be superior to the rifle, but also superior to the maze of other choices. By placing a subconscious emphasis on melee and adding a bunch of handwaving magitech like arm-jerking stabilization, you might neutralize a rifle's advantages, but all that does is scream for a better melee weapon. Quote:
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Remember how you described the arm-jerk stabilization to be "nudges"? Do THOSE look like "nudges" to you? DO they look like they can evolve to "nudges"? Quote:
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Datapoint A: Test subject = Powerful mage with no knowledge of magic. FLying = Easy Datapoint B: Test subject = Wimpy mages with (presumably) knowledge of magic. Flying = Hard. The most reasonable interpretation suggests that the primary component of the difficulty is power. Quote:
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Starting from the T-64B, Soviet tanks have a guided missile they can use for targets out of effective range of their guns. Fighters have guided missiles out of range of the unguided cannona nd rockets. In the Nanoverse, Nanoha has a straight running shot that can be used out of range of the guided shots. Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-01-19 at 06:51. Reason: Finish reply. |
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2008-01-18, 20:04 | Link #529 |
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Just a quick comment on rifles in melee.
The US Army isn't keen on the idea. The M16 and M4 tend to break when you beat someone on the head with them Special Forces, if forced to engage in melee, will drop their rifles and use their knives. SEALs DO use their rifles in melee, as part of Close Quaters Defence training, but their use of rifles as clubs is primarily intended for when someone's trying to grab the rifle; since he's trying to grab it, rather than let go and let him shoot you, you whack him with it, and try and make sure it's the Surefire taclamp on the side that hits him. However, everytime Special Forces, Delta, Marines and SEALs are forced to go melee, they whip out combat knives. They don't bother using their rifles as spears. When Delta Operator Paul Howe was preparing for his last stand (which didn't happen), his plan of engagement was M4, shotgun, pistol, then knife. He had no intentions of attaching his knife to his M4 and turning it into a spear. Now, that says something. None of the units I mentioned above believe in knife+rifle combo weapons. Their idea is that if you fight melee, you use a knife. "Different horses for different courses." - US Navy aquisition policy. Okay, another point that I just realised. The main contention is that a rifle device is more accurate for Nanoha. What is the title? Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha. Next, Nanoha is essentially Magical Girls doing Shounen Mecha Action. Thus, Divine Shooter/Accel Shooter can easily be seen as analoguos to the fin funnels of UC Gundam and the DRAGOON system of CE. Both systems are remote beam emitters controlled mentally by the pilot. Both have the emitters deploying from their hardpoints on the mobile suit first, then attacking the target with under the pilot's command. Rau Le Creuset doesn't need a fucking rifle device to ruin someone's day with DRAGOON system.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2008-01-18 at 21:03. |
2008-01-18, 21:58 | Link #530 | |||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Further, I don't think it explains the observations very well. For example, when Signum sliced Bardiche in two, Bardiche lost the mass of its shaft and that damage was easily repaired. Yet if the mass reserve is sorely limited, why doesn't Fate at least make an effort to recover the precious mass that's the shaft? It can't have fallen that far away. Then Fate gets Bardiche damaged again. Bardiche is badly deformed, but actually very little mass was lost - it was just crunched. In your theory, it'll actually be a easier fix. That the small amount of mass lost coincidentally was the last draw is pushing it, and Fate doesn't even try to partially repair it using what mass was there - even if you can't make it good as new, surely it can be rearranged into something better than that poor shape. Finally, they get it back to the base. If the problem is one of lack of matter, the repair should be a simple one. Grab the nearest bag of "Device Filler X" and toss it into subspace. Repair ... finished. To put it simply - mass lost seems to have a low correlation to repairability. Thus, it is more reasonable to say the core was involved. You say "does not seem to affect the core much). How much of a delicate thing like a CPU do you have to break before it loses function? Oh yeah, think of Vita and Signum's devices. If they are really grabbing from a subspace matter bag, they'll have to be relatively big to contain all the matter for the Snake and Giant forms. Why do they hold so much and everyone else holds so little by comparison? Quote:
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[quote]I agree Magic Particles likely have mass for all the reasons you said, but really that then just makes them a type (or possibly state) of matter and thus your scheme is still wrong even if the devices are built out of them. (Which I’m not at all convinced they are.) If you want to say mana is a type of matter because mass=matter, That's fine. The exact nature of matter is a disputed subject anyway (I seem to have used the "fermion"=matter one by accident). In any case, it is a correction of terminology, not a fatal flaw in the plan. |
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2008-01-19, 03:12 | Link #531 |
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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I just realised this morning that, in all this talk of mass, mana and forcefields, we overlooked something: Summoning. What are Alchemic Chain, Voltaire, Haktenou, Garyuu, Jirai-oh, the bugs made of? Where do they come from? Where do they go when dismissed?
Also, remember Friederich, who can go from mini-dragon to one large enough to ride. Where does the extra mass come from and where does it go? If you want to call them mana creations like the Knights, do consider this: Neither Caro nor Lutecia have a device as advanced as the Book of Darkness. Furthermore, Caro had Fried long before she had a device. And yes, it could go full-form at the time, she just couldn't control well-enough back then. Sommoning shows that an aspect of this universe completely defies the laws of physics. And since that's the case for one area, who's to say you can't leverage that in other areas? |
2008-01-19, 03:41 | Link #532 |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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The entire idea of "summoning" or "calling on someone's (especially a sentient's power" is frankly moronic beyond its physical consequences. I can buy Fried helping Caro since they've known each other for a long time, but why Voltaire will help Caro is frankly beyond me. Frankly, I don't even want to think about what happens if ten people call on Voltaire at once
However, from purely physical point of view, it is not much more troublesome than transporting. In fact, Caro implies that the two are highly related skills anyway. Summoning is most likely just a form of enforced teleportation. It probably goes something like this: 1) You chat up your summoned creature and make a contract with him. 2) When you need him, you use the spell to activate the link, find out where he is, and grab him by teleport. So that leaves what is Fried. I think the little Fried we see is kind of a natural device, a little like Reinforce II really but made by Friedrich (remember Rein was supposedly made with a small piece of Hayate's Linker Core). Friedrich's real body is stuffed in the world of Voltaire and Co (speculation here but methinks the summoned creatures' original world is the one where Caro, Erio and Lutecia lived in at the end of StrikerS). When it is needed, Caro uses the little Friedrich as a "device" to call up the Friedrich body. That's the best I can think of out of a bad situation. (Frankly, I don't remember how specific they were with how Caro met Friedrich or anything else that might provide a hint or limit, so I can't say I'm sure this won't bump into anything, but ...) |
2008-01-19, 06:46 | Link #533 | ||||
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Fried's transformation is like Yuuno's, but on a much larger scale. How did you explain that one again? Quote:
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2008-01-19, 07:42 | Link #535 | ||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Consider Ep 1. The guy has beaten off the Jewel Seed monster without managing to seal it. He's dead tired with his magic depleted. What does he do as a last step? He turns into a ferret! IIRC, in that Character Creation thread, Tk3997 postulates that shapeshifting is molecular manipulation with spare material moving in and out of a subspace bag. But that does not explain Ep 1 from an energy state point of view. When you are tired, as a rule, you want to preserve energy, magical or otherwise. If Yunno's default form is human, why would his last move be to force open the portal (burn energy), stuff the bulk of his fermion mass into a subspace bag (use more energy) and reshape what's left of it into a ferret (can't have been free there either)? Surely it'll have not only have saved him energy not to go to all that trouble, but a human form has a greater chance of getting useful help than a ferret form. It is much bigger, thus easier to discover, and most people in a non-magical world will be a little less shocked conversing with a human. (Since he's trying to get help, secrecy is not his top priority, and a human form at least gives him an option of concealing his magical-being status). I'm not counting the possible health risks of performing such an operation when you are so tired - what if you get "stuck" in the middle? If his real form is the ferret, there is probably no advantage to picking that moment to revert if the bag is true. There is only an advantage if he can either save some energy or recover some energy. If the human form is a mana creation, however, then dissolving it and reverting to only his ferret fermion mass will allow him to recover the energy used in its composition or at least save him the trouble of maintaining it (small as the upkeep may be). It'll also make the reversion very safe - the human form will self-dissolve when the energy is all gone and in fact that might have been what has happened; an involuntary or semi-voluntary action. IMO, though Yunno might think otherwise, an objective way to decide a person's true form is to see what he turns into when he's near dead. My StrikerS episodes are scattered over about a dozen unmarked disks (I use them as filler for DVDs mostly filled with other content), so checking exactly what is said is a bit tough - I plan to grab the new DVD versions coming out and consolidate them into a new DVD. Anyway, for Fried, I know it is not a device per se. I'm using it as an analogy. I'm arguing his real form, at the time of StrikerS, is this huge dragon. He may have been bred by Caro and still could have been a huge dragon - in fact, it'll provide a rather objective reason for those beeps to kick her out. She obviously can't carry that dragon with her all the time, so Fried forks over a small piece of Linker Core and makes little Fried which Caro carries with her. The bulk either goes into hibernation or is subsisting somewhere on that summoner's world. Quote:
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2008-01-19, 08:20 | Link #537 | |||||
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You're who calls it "moronic," not me.
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There's another thing, mini-Fried always disappears when Fried is around. If it had a seperate existence from big-Fried the way you seem to think it does, wouldn't it make sense to have mini-Fried around with the big one? Extra firepower always helps. I can't think of a good reason why, if mini-Fried wasn't big-Fried, the two of them can't be with Caro at the same time, can you? Quote:
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I've observed something about the way you argue, ark. Whenever you make assumptions to defend your position, you say it's allowable because canon doesn't contradict it, even when your opponents point out, there's no evidence supporting your assumption either. When others make assumptions to defend positions opposing yours, you are quick to point out that there's no evidence supporting their position and that simply not contradicting canon is not enough. Why is it only you have the privillige of making such assumptions? |
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2008-01-19, 08:44 | Link #538 | |
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Hell, even Call of Duty 4 dropped the "Use your weapon's melee attack" for a knife strike. Yeah, real good skills there, ark.
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2008-01-19, 10:16 | Link #539 | ||||||
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And you are the one who seems to want to defend it as "common" and accusing me of feeling "uncomfortable".
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The question I believe should be asked is: Why does Yunno want to become a ferret in the first place? But that's for the Character thread. Given that he has chosen to be a ferret, I look at how he becomes a ferret and come up with the mechanism which I think can best explain the evidence. Quote:
ADDITION: Frankly, look at my posts, Jimmy. For various reasons, they are often constructed hastily, in a hectic fashion. Sometimes I post and then I realize I had not even finished answering one of the points (I had jumped around and forgot to come back to it). Other times the formatting comes loose (especially the quoting formatting) and there are more than a few typos. Given all this, don't you think you should give the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the exact wording? Quote:
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When I criticized Tk3997's subspace bag theory, I did point out counterevidence that (IMHO) made his propositions unlikely, did I? When I criticized the auto-jerking stabilization theory, I cited counterexamples of the use of stocks, proposed real-life ergonomic problems to his "solutions", and pointed out the limits to his own examples. In other words, in both cases, it is not "no evidence", at least IMO it was very much "canon says otherwise". Not to mention real life for the latter (discussing "real life" for the former is a bit specious). The non-contradiction of canon is the minimum for any theory. UPDATE: Almost forgot, the other requirement is that something needs explaining. Once you have that (to the best of your knowledge), IMO, you can propose it. That does not necessarily mean it is right, and I always give people a chance to jump on my theories, just as I'm jumping on theirs. Quote:
Your latest post, IMO, is purely informative when Keroko was doing a fair job of convincing me, using his personal knowledge of melee ergonomics, that I had overestimated the relative melee combat coefficient of a rifle. Further, I wasn't interested in discussing SEALs, and I was actually supposed to be working (your post was posted as office hours start in Hong Kong - I work Saturdays) rather than answering posts about fictional universes. So I decided to get back to work. Sorry if that made you feel left out. Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-01-19 at 10:35. Reason: Forgot something. |
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2008-01-19, 10:53 | Link #540 | |||
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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But since you said it *grins* [/smartass] Quote:
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At any rate, it was merely giving real world examples to support what Keroko was doing, and to preempt the possible "But real Earth armies train people to fight melee with bayonets on rifles" argument.
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