Claymore Chapter 82

[SagaraSouske]

Originally Posted by khryoleoz

Not quite. You can arrive at those notions by my arguments because you aren't thinking logically.

However Raffy's love for Luci resulted in her actions, that love does not compel her to bestow any benefits or favors onto others. You can love your mom & pop, your bro & sis, your date & buddy, but the conditional love you extend to these people does not compel you to regard every other person around with care. At most you leave them be unless they're of particular interest to you or they cross your path in some way. Depending on how that crossing falls according to your values, impacts your objective, and/or bumps into your temperament at that moment and vice versa, you've either made friend or foe.

Because I think Raf's love for Luci goes beyond just normal family familiarity and natural love of relation. It encompasses a capacity for compassion and kindness for others. I believe Raf is more human and compassionate then she looks. If she is catering to her human side, she has become "soft" like Teresa and if Teresa can spare Pris, she certainly can spare Irene. I think she hates the Org for what they did to her and Luci and just have different goals and choose a different path then Miria.

Yes much of my conjecture is speculation on what I am reading between the lines and major point I am drawing on is the new information in chapter 82 that she simply did not just kill Luci to release her from being an AB for atonement. She went a step beyond that and try to bring back Luci. To me, that shows a compassionate heart that goes beyond just family love and contrary to the image that was shown about her being an aloof, obedient tool of the Org.

Of course time may prove me completely wrong on her character, yet that is what I currently believe to be who Raf is - a compassionate soul hiding under a cold exterior.

[SagaraSouske]

Originally Posted by Ryuken

Ah! is that what you guys are talking about.

Well now, not all claymores display the same characters as each other nor are they similar to that of Rafa. Well maybe some but definitely not all. Take Ophi chan for instance, now tell me just how or which trade of hers is similar to that of Rafa. I know that she changed near the end but before that?

I guess I should have said most instead of all "humanized" claymores.

Originally Posted by Ryuken

And why wouldn't Rafa kill Irene? Irene and her sister are entirely two different matters. There is no reason for her not to, the only thing is that there is no conformation, that's all.

Same reason why Miria told G7 they will oppose the Org but not kill fellow Claymores and the reason why they went to rescue fellow claymores from 3 ABs and Ritful, and also why they protected Rabnon from Agatha.

[Torri_fay_torren@hot]

Well...I made the mistake of thinking that Lucillia was dead. I thought that Raphalia might be alive but I never thought that Lucillia would be alive even partially alive. I won't make the mistake agin. A person is not dead until I have definative proof . I will say one thing more. Ilana seemed to have a better chance of bieng alive then Lucillia

[Cyclone]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Because I think Raf's love for Luci goes beyond just normal family familiarity and natural love of relation. It encompasses a capacity for compassion and kindness for others.

Uhm. Compassion and kindness...
May I remind you what her job was? She was an ASSASSIN for the kind and compassionate Organization.
I know we've all been subjected to many a moralizing anime/mangas with assissins who refuse to kill (*cough*Blackcat,etc*cough*), but I just don't see Claymore as being that kind of manga.
All indications are that Raphaela did her job obidiently, and did it well. That means - kind and compassionate towards her sister or not - she killed people. Sucks to be Irene.

Look, I liked Irene as a character too. But do you really REALLY want her back? Stop to think of what that would mean for a moment.
Once the story is done, and the main bad guy is defeated, and all of Clare's issues settled, Clare would try to return what she 'borrowed'. She'd return Irene's arm to her whether she wanted it or not, and whether Irene re-grew a new arm or not - that's just the kind of stubborn person I see Clare as being. So the choice is simple - do you prefer a two armed Clare, or a living Irene - one or the other, not both. Irene's role in the story is complete, and her continued existance would amputate the main characters right arm off again. This one reason alone is enough to make me believe that Irene is dead.

[SagaraSouske]

Originally Posted by Cyclone

Uhm. Compassion and kindness...
May I remind you what her job was? She was an ASSASSIN for the kind and compassionate Organization.
I know we've all been subjected to many a moralizing anime/mangas with assissins who refuse to kill (*cough*Blackcat,etc*cough*), but I just don't see Claymore as being that kind of manga.
All indications are that Raphaela did her job obidiently, and did it well. That means - kind and compassionate towards her sister or not - she killed people. Sucks to be Irene.

Look, I liked Irene as a character too. But do you really REALLY want her back? Stop to think of what that would mean for a moment.
Once the story is done, and the main bad guy is defeated, and all of Clare's issues settled, Clare would try to return what she 'borrowed'. She'd return Irene's arm to her whether she wanted it or not, and whether Irene re-grew a new arm or not - that's just the kind of stubborn person I see Clare as being. So the choice is simple - do you prefer a two armed Clare, or a living Irene - one or the other, not both. Irene's role in the story is complete, and her continued existance would amputate the main characters right arm off again. This one reason alone is enough to make me believe that Irene is dead.

You can be an assassin and still be compassionate and kind. Look at Noir.

I don't really care if Irene comes back or not. I am sure Yagi sensei can find a good reason to bring her back and make it fit in the story if he wants to. I just thought that there are more to Raf then what appears on the surface is all. Most of the major characters (claymores) go through a process of "humanization" by Yagi sensei, even Ophelia. Much of the emphasis of the story is put on that aspect. If Raf is a going to be an important character, I think she would likely be part of that process as well.

[Ryuken]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

I guess I should have said most instead of all "humanized" claymores.

It is interesting the way you put the word "humanize or humanized". Non the less, you seem to have a pretty good idea about it. I accept the fact that they are becoming more and more human as the story is progressing.

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Same reason why Miria told G7 they will oppose the Org but not kill fellow Claymores and the reason why they went to rescue fellow claymores from 3 ABs and Ritful, and also why they protected Rabnon from Agatha.

Yes, agreed on that. Maybe ABs, in which case I don't think they would have much choice. But no, definitely not fellow claymores.

[Ryuken]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

You can be an assassin and still be compassionate and kind. Look at Noir.

Or better yet, look at Sly from Assassins the film.

[Valduran]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

You can be an assassin and still be compassionate and kind. Look at Noir.

Noir != Reality.
Trust me, you can't kill people in cold blood and be kind and compassionate.
Alot of animes and movies desensitize you to the fact that killing another human, even in self-defense, is an extremely difficult and traumatic experience for any normal person. (Let alone someone of a kind and compassionate nature)
To do so as your job/mission you have to be able to disconnect yourself from your own humanity. Otherwise you'll go insane and/or become depressed and suicidal.

Claymore seems to have more realistic psychology than most anime/manga, and so I'd expect it to follow believable behavior patterns.

I don't really have an opinion about Irene's current state, it could be either way for me. But if Rafaela spared her, I seriously doubt it was out of any kind of kindness. In their dialog she didn't even seem to care that the person she had been sent to kill was completely helpless.

@Cyclone: That idea isn't especially true really. If Irene decided to regenerate her arm, I seriously doubt Clare would try to force the original back on her. Clare would probably have to slice off Irene's new arm to do so... doesn't really seem like something she would do, even if she strongly felt she had to return the arm.
Irene already stated that she had no more use for it. She would likely refuse Clare's attempts to give it back.

[Savannah]

Originally Posted by chibamonster

That reminds me of one of my brothers friends who always has something to complain about. It does not matter how things are actually going. He just likes to complain. At first I thought things were actually going badly in his different situations, but as I have listened to him over the years I realized that it does not actually matter how things are going, he will find a reason to complain and be miserable. One of his favorite things to complain about was discrimination. He sees it everywhere. Basically he can find it with anyone who was different than him in any way (not hard when you look) which really makes me laugh at the irony of pointing out "discrimination" in others. When I would ask for clarification of his stories I realized they were often fabrications and the way he imagined the world. Excuses so he could complain more. It is just ingrained into his personality. It is his personality. You can imagine the effect a friend like that has on a person.

I too know that kind of people. Although the one I spent some time with, had a really nice way of complaining. Some times I miss his humor. Afaik he also had a rather annoying personality, but some how managed to get "rid" of it by making his complaints funny.

[Cyclone]

Originally Posted by Valduran

Noir != Reality.
Trust me, you can't kill people in cold blood and be kind and compassionate.
Alot of animes and movies desensitize you to the fact that killing another human, even in self-defense, is an extremely difficult and traumatic experience for any normal person. (Let alone someone of a kind and compassionate nature)
To do so as your job/mission you have to be able to disconnect yourself from your own humanity. Otherwise you'll go insane and/or become depressed and suicidal.

Claymore seems to have more realistic psychology than most anime/manga, and so I'd expect it to follow believable behavior patterns.

I don't really have an opinion about Irene's current state, it could be either way for me. But if Rafaela spared her, I seriously doubt it was out of any kind of kindness. In their dialog she didn't even seem to care that the person she had been sent to kill was completely helpless.

@Cyclone: That idea isn't especially true really. If Irene decided to regenerate her arm, I seriously doubt Clare would try to force the original back on her. Clare would probably have to slice off Irene's new arm to do so... doesn't really seem like something she would do, even if she strongly felt she had to return the arm.
Irene already stated that she had no more use for it. She would likely refuse Clare's attempts to give it back.

Noir is kind and compassionate? What I remember from noir is mainly each episode's the sizable body count of nameless individuals wearing suits and sun glasses. You know - side characters holding no emotional meaning to the protagonists, like Irene to Raphaela.

As for returning the arm or not.
Firstly, I doubt Irene can regrow an arm. I believe she said that to make Clare feel better about taking it. It's definitely way too late for her to regenerate her left arm (side note - if she could regenerate her arms, why not regenerate her left one long ago). Also the longer it's gone, the harder it is. Even defensive types like Lune and Galatea cannot regenerate if too much time passes. I imagine that a week or two would be about the limit, yet Irene (offensive type) was planning to take a few months. So even if Irene survived, I see her chances of re-growing her arm as slim to none.

But hypothetically, assuming she survived, and assuming she managed to regrow her right arm, there is no chance she'd be able to regrow the left one back too. Personally, I see Clare as the type of person who would repay her debt by leaving the arm on her doorstep with a note saying "burn it if you don't want it". If you don't see her that way, fine - but do you think Clare, upon finding a one armed Irene again, will just leave it at that? I think even if Irene managed to successfully argue against returning her right arm to her, Clare would simply lob off her own left arm and give it back instead.

[Vinak]

@Cyclone.
I personally felt Raphaela's role in the story was also over. she accomplished what she set out to do. Just goes to show I and perhaps other people were wrong in this assumption.

Irene's role appears to be over at this point in the story but she may always come back.
What if Irene does comes back in the near future and Clare does indeed insist on giving Irene's arm back. We have learned regeneration is based on memory. what if Clare, with the help of Cynthia is able to regenerate not her arm but Irene's instead.

surely she has forgotten what her own arm felt like long ago and only remembers how to use Irene's.

We now have one kick ass one armed elf lady along with our two armed psychopath (Clare) and your share of all the lilicons you can possibly ever want.

Everybody is happy....except for Clare...she can't have Teresa back....

------------------------

On a side note....can Claymores choose not to feel pain?

I mean look at Irene cutting off her own arm and not even flinching. And then we have Lune with her arm and both legs chopped off and only noticing after seeing her legs on the floor.

Unless of course the both of them were reaching toxic levels of endorphins in their systems to reduce the pain.

[Cyclone]

Originally Posted by Vinak

@Cyclone.
I personally felt Raphaela's role in the story was also over. she accomplished what she set out to do. Just goes to show I and perhaps other people were wrong in this assumption.

Irene's role appears to be over at this point in the story but she may always come back.
What if Irene does comes back in the near future and Clare does indeed insist on giving Irene's arm back. We have learned regeneration is based on memory. what if Clare, with the help of Cynthia is able to regenerate not her arm but Irene's instead.

surely she has forgotten what her own arm felt like long ago and only remembers how to use Irene's.

We now have one kick ass one armed elf lady along with our two armed psychopath (Clare) and your share of all the lilicons you can possibly ever want.

Everybody is happy....except for Clare...she can't have Teresa back....

Uhm - I am really divided how to respond to this... the high road or the low road.

Ah heck, the low road is more fun.
You thought both Luciella's and Raphaella role was over. Someone else has been claiming otherwise since chapter 74 - why are you doubting this person now?

Well, in any case, we'll find out eventually I'm sure. Maybe Yagi could somehow pull it off without too many amputees... I don't know. Just seems incredibly unlikely though. I think Irene serves the plot better dead as motivation to kill Raciella... But hold out hope for her if you wish.

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

Originally Posted by Cyclone

I think Irene serves the plot better dead as motivation to kill Raciella... But hold out hope for her if you wish.

nobody knows if she is dead... and Raciella didnt kill her =P

[Enara]

Originally Posted by Cyclone

Uhm. Compassion and kindness...
May I remind you what her job was? She was an ASSASSIN for the kind and compassionate Organization.
I know we've all been subjected to many a moralizing anime/mangas with assissins who refuse to kill (*cough*Blackcat,etc*cough*), but I just don't see Claymore as being that kind of manga.
All indications are that Raphaela did her job obidiently, and did it well. That means - kind and compassionate towards her sister or not - she killed people. Sucks to be Irene.

I agree Raphaela came at her sister with the intent it kill.

[Valduran]

@Cyclone: You do have a bit of a point. I'm assuming Irene would be able to regrow the arm she had just removed, but not the one she lost to Priscilla.
When she said she would take a few months, doesn't that mean it would be a few months before her new arm was fully functional? I thought she meant she would start regenerating right away.

I don't really agree that Clare would remove the arm Irene had given her and throw it at Irene even if Irene wouldn't use it, but it's possible I guess... Kinda hard to say. But I never thought about Clare giving her own left arm to Irene, that would definitely be something I can imagine her doing. So overall I admit the whole 1-armed Clare theory is realistic.

But I think that if Irene DID come back, and assuming she still managed to survive to the end of the series, I suspect Yagi would find some way to ensure that Clare never returned the arm. But even if she did, I wouldn't mind too much. It would be kind of interesting for her to do so. I like the idea of the hero not walking away from the conflict unscathed(doesn't mean I'm hoping for this to happen though. It would be very wierd )

[clarakiss~]

i'm not sure how irene would survive if she doesn't have both of her arms unless she has awaken after that.

[SoulesS69]

yesterday triying to sleep i got this idea!
raphaela was a master at surpressing her yoki and luciella an abyssal one :O
maybe Raphaciella is an ``Indetectable Abyssal One´´^^ and a bit stronger than luciella!

[Ryuken]

Originally Posted by SoulesS69

yesterday triying to sleep i got this idea!
raphaela was a master at surpressing her yoki and luciella an abyssal one :O
maybe Raphaciella is an ``Indetectable Abyssal One´´^^ and a bit stronger than luciella!

Could be @hell, it is not entirely impossible. I wouldn't be surprised if that is actually the case.

[Seska]

My stuff to this. about Irene.

How it comes, that a pupil surpass her master in awaken "other" limbs, if needed.

Irene should have the knowledge to awaken her other limbs. Not only her Right Arm. Why not awaken her Legs like Clare and jump away or surpasses Mirias "phantom" speed? But, then. even Irene saw that Rafaela surpass her in Power...

But then, the story is to mutch forward for a faster return. Perhaps Raki will meet Irene (with Human Arms) in some hidden House outside of the path? And Clare will meet him. But then there is a problem. Pricilia will surly remember and awake again...

[Endrance]

I'm gonna go with alot of people and hold out hope that Irene is still around somewhere