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Old 2013-05-25, 06:31   Link #601
Tenzen12
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Not if rejected one is popular in that case rejecting one is bad. If you remember main reason why she were bullied were cause she were popular with guys and girls were jelous on that. There is no foreshadowing of being rejected (that would be same as Hikki instead of opposite), but plenty of her rejecting them.
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Old 2013-05-25, 12:50   Link #602
kazzuya13
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Originally Posted by icebreaker View Post
But Hayama confessing and Yukino rejecting is exactly what was hinted in Volume 7.
Maybe it is one of those cliche that "Yukino wants to be alone, here comes Hayama all dazzling hanging around Yukino and because of that the already isolated Yukino is became more isolated and Hayama forcing his feelings for Yukino"
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Old 2013-05-25, 16:49   Link #603
Tenzen12
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Now that you mention that you may have your point but something about Hayama confessing and Yukinon rejecting... there's a piece that that doesn't seem to fit for us...

Sure he has a thing for Yukino but the gutless wor-err that bishie nice guy lacks balls or final resolve...

The rejected one will be the one that will be ridiculed and isolated and kids at those age knows no bound in that situation... those that can't understand isolation are those that haven't experience one and he fits the mark... for us at least...

our idea is more like Yukinon confess Hayama being who he is where he is too nice to actually do something that may hurt a third party or such lame excuse may have been the one to reject (e.g let's remain friends...)... can also explain Yuki's resentment towards him...
First I don't think you should understimate him, he didn't have problem shut up Miura nor playing vilain in Hikki little act, which actualy could cause lot of trouble for him. And with master level of mood managment He wouldn't have problem get some popularity point from rejection as well.

Second your idea has two big shortcoming.
1)It asume that Yukino has/had romantic feelings for Hayama
2)It asume existence of unspecified character/group of characters you call third party.

Neither of it is supported by canon so far so build whole theory on it makes it very shaky and ANY other conclussion that make sense and is bassed on "real" events and dialogs of LN has better standing than that.

PS: I know I am answering for second time to your post, but from first one I spend 8 hours formulate this in my job, so Yorishiku.
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Old 2013-05-25, 18:37   Link #604
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Thanks and You're welcome...

But Yukinon's resentment towards him is so great so whatever the problem they had, it must be on a personal level...
our assessment may have been wrong...
Seems like we need to read the summaries once more...
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Old 2013-05-25, 19:05   Link #605
Shadow5YA
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Thanks and You're welcome...

But Yukinon's resentment towards him is so great so whatever the problem they had, it must be on a personal level...
our assessment may have been wrong...
Seems like we need to read the summaries once more...
I think you're exaggerating her feelings. They rarely talk to begin with. If anything, Yukino showed more anger towards Hachiman at the end of vol 7 than she ever did towards Hayato.
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Old 2013-05-25, 19:21   Link #606
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I do think Yukino acted extremly cold to Hayato and it's personal as well, so accidentaly agree with my today's opponent. If there were any outburst of anger it had to be prior high school, but It's cold war so I wouldn't say so.
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Old 2013-05-26, 01:00   Link #607
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From what I've figured it has to be something more than a rejection. She might not have had romantic feelings for him but they must've been good friends in childhood or such.
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Old 2013-05-26, 01:14   Link #608
kazzuya13
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Originally Posted by icebreaker View Post
From what I've figured it has to be something more than a rejection. She might not have had romantic feelings for him but they must've been good friends in childhood or such.
Maybe from being rejected by Yukino many sympathize with Hayama and because of that they ganged up on Yukino and became isolated. Espicially from the girls because they must have already thought YUkino as someone who is conceited and even more so.
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Old 2013-05-26, 01:23   Link #609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeutralZero View Post
Thanks and You're welcome...

But Yukinon's resentment towards him is so great so whatever the problem they had, it must be on a personal level...
our assessment may have been wrong...
Seems like we need to read the summaries once more...
Quote:
Originally Posted by icebreaker View Post
From what I've figured it has to be something more than a rejection. She might not have had romantic feelings for him but they must've been good friends in childhood or such.
From what it seemed like to me, Hayato doesn't actually have much of a spine or didn't have much of one back in primary school. This is hinted at when Hayato subtly derides himself for the fact that he wouldn't have been friends with Hachiman back then.

We also know that Yukinon was teased mercilessly as a kid and went to the same school as Hayato, my own guess is that Yukinon and Hayato were childhood friends but once school started Yukinon became the target of a lot of bullying and Hayato stood around doing nothing or, worse, he participated. Hayato probably envies Hachiman's ability to put himself in the line of fire for the sake of others because of this, and Hachiman's ability to empathize with Yukinon that Hayato will never possess.

I imagine Hayato does have feelings for Yukinon, but Yukinon despises him for essentially being a childhood friend who turned his back on her when she needed him most. If I recall correctly, after her primary school she left to study internationally, and only came back for highschool. That being said, he might just be feeling guilty over what he had done, and is trying to do the same thing Yui originally set out to do for Hachiman.

Honestly speaking, I'm kind of thinking there will come a point in time that Yui starts collaborating with Hayato for some reason and eventually they build their own romantic relationship from there. They have bubbly personalities well suited for each other, and Yui could never survive the ostracization that would come with dating Hachiman. It would crush her, she survives by dancing the perimeter of social circles.
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Old 2013-05-26, 02:34   Link #610
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Originally Posted by TheAlucid View Post
From what it seemed like to me, Hayato doesn't actually have much of a spine or didn't have much of one back in primary school. This is hinted at when Hayato subtly derides himself for the fact that he wouldn't have been friends with Hachiman back then.
The anime cut out a lot on this one. Essentially what he meant was that he doesn't agree with Hachiman's view on Yukino, where Hachiman thinks that she is fine as she is now (he idolizes her, in fact), while Hayato thinks that Yukino should be a little more like Haurno. And it probably meant a little rivalry as Yukino cares a lot about Hachiman, at least in Hayato's view. The thing is you don't need this to proof that Hayato doesn't have much spine, there are much better cases such as when his 3 friends are in conflict or the confession case.

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Originally Posted by TheAlucid View Post
We also know that Yukinon was teased mercilessly as a kid and went to the same school as Hayato, my own guess is that Yukinon and Hayato were childhood friends but once school started Yukinon became the target of a lot of bullying and Hayato stood around doing nothing or, worse, he participated. Hayato probably envies Hachiman's ability to put himself in the line of fire for the sake of others because of this, and Hachiman's ability to empathize with Yukinon that Hayato will never possess.

I imagine Hayato does have feelings for Yukinon, but Yukinon despises him for essentially being a childhood friend who turned his back on her when she needed him most. If I recall correctly, after her primary school she left to study internationally, and only came back for highschool.
I strongly agree on this one.

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Originally Posted by TheAlucid View Post
That being said, he might just be feeling guilty over what he had done, and is trying to do the same thing Yui originally set out to do for Hachiman.
I don't think Yui had ever consciously thought of being kind out of guilt.
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Old 2013-05-26, 03:30   Link #611
TheAlucid
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The anime cut out a lot on this one. Essentially what he meant was that he doesn't agree with Hachiman's view on Yukino, where Hachiman thinks that she is fine as she is now (he idolizes her, in fact), while Hayato thinks that Yukino should be a little more like Haurno.
Ah that's right, Hayato does say that Yukino should be more like her sister doesn't he? I was under the impression though that Haruno is a lot like Yukino only to some degree much worse, and that her entire personality is a facade to function in society whereas Yukino is honest about herself to others.

At least, that's been my impression from what little I've read about Haruno, I take it Hayato being the naive character he is can't see through Haruno to the reality underneath? Whereas Haruno compliments Hachiman for having 'rotten eyes' essentially, and can see the lie for what it is.

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Originally Posted by icebreaker View Post
And it probably meant a little rivalry as Yukino cares a lot about Hachiman, at least in Hayato's view. The thing is you don't need this to proof that Hayato doesn't have much spine, there are much better cases such as when his 3 friends are in conflict or the confession case.
Granted the confession case does prove he's more than willing to let Hachiman take the heat for situations he can't maneuver without implicating himself.

Maybe it was just the anime rubbing off on me though, but it seemed like in the scene he was admitting a painful truth about himself. Namely that he wouldn't be strong enough to be friends with someone like Hachiman (and by extension, he wasn't strong enough to be friends with Yukinon) given the public ridicule/hate he would have to endure to do so. He left Yukinon out to dry and would have done the same to Hachiman.


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Originally Posted by icebreaker View Post
I don't think Yui had ever consciously thought of being kind out of guilt.
You're most likely right, Yui probably had no ulterior motives beyond wanting to return the kindness Hachiman showed her by saving her dog; and it just evolved into something more.

I think from what we've seen of Hayato though it seems like he has a much more profound sense of guilt over Yukinon, which would make sense given that all Yui did was be in the wrong place at the wrong time and Hachiman threw himself into the road of his own violation.
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Old 2013-05-26, 03:49   Link #612
Okashira
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Originally Posted by icebreaker View Post
Essentially what he meant was that he doesn't agree with Hachiman's view on Yukino, where Hachiman thinks that she is fine as she is now (he idolizes her, in fact), while Hayato thinks that Yukino should be a little more like Haurno. And it probably meant a little rivalry as Yukino cares a lot about Hachiman, at least in Hayato's view. The thing is you don't need this to proof that Hayato doesn't have much spine, there are much better cases such as when his 3 friends are in conflict or the confession case.
Well, dunno about "spine", he probably does lack it a lot, however according to 8man's monologue we can at least say that Hayato is the type that can't sit still when he sees someone suffering right in front of him + the fact that he can't do anything if he feels he is going to make someone suffer, if we read a little too bit into it, we might phrase it as "he is the type who does the 'right thing', but he can't possibly take sides when it comes down to it", that kind of stance ultimately is fated to fail, specially with the type of troubles that keep popping up in this show.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Hayato's kira personality was build from the group up for the sake of helping Yukinon with whatever has always happened to her, I can see her hating that (as in, not being yourself for the sake of something else can be an hypocrite act in her dictionary).


About the Yukinon vs Harunon personality argument, we can phrase it as them being "opposites", Yukinon will always 100% of the time (in theory) go with the truth, and if that damages someone then tough deal; her concept of society works like that and he actually does expect a similar treatment from the people that deal with her. Harunon, by her part seems to be the type that puts an act or a part for those around her, and can only allow herself to be "herself" as long as she doesn't trouble anyone, for that reason we can see the most of her when she goes all out to tease someone , that mask fits to a T someone who had to learn how to act perfectly in social situations, but has her basic personality not being 100% compatible with those events.
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Old 2013-05-26, 04:13   Link #613
TheAlucid
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Well, dunno about "spine", he probably does lack it a lot, however according to 8man's monologue we can at least say that Hayato is the type that can't sit still when he sees someone suffering right in front of him + the fact that he can't do anything if he feels he is going to make someone suffer, if we read a little too bit into it, we might phrase it as "he is the type who does the 'right thing', but he can't possibly take sides when it comes down to it", that kind of stance ultimately is fated to fail, specially with the type of troubles that keep popping up in this show.
Not only that, but Hachiman's shown to be fallible, he thought Yukinon was all that he really aspired to be. Someone strong enough in their individuality to be able to tell the truth and damn the consequences. Only he finds out that Yukinon really does lie like the rest of them. Likewise, he sees Hayato as much as the rest of the school sees him with the exception of Yukinon. My guess is that in a situation that puts his own social status at stake Hayato freezes up and does nothing.

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About the Yukinon vs Harunon personality argument, we can phrase it as them being "opposites", Yukinon will always 100% of the time (in theory) go with the truth, and if that damages someone then tough deal; her concept of society works like that and he actually does expect a similar treatment from the people that deal with her. Harunon, by her part seems to be the type that puts an act or a part for those around her, and can only allow herself to be "herself" as long as she doesn't trouble anyone, for that reason we can see the most of her when she goes all out to tease someone , that mask fits to a T someone who had to learn how to act perfectly in social situations, but has her basic personality not being 100% compatible with those events.
We do know that Yukinon does lie however, and more importantly, she lies when the reality of the situation might damage herself. This is why Hachiman gave her the cold shoulder and berates himself for expecting better of her at the end of the 6th volume.

I also wouldn't say Yukinon and Harunon are opposites, rather Harunon seems to share almost the exact same philosophy about the world but puts that knowledge into practice differently than Yukinon. Where Yukinon (aware of the darker side of human nature and lays it bare for others) is brutally honest, Harunon instead uses that nature to manipulate others. She's like a Yukinon pretending to be Hayato if that makes sense.
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Old 2013-05-26, 06:44   Link #614
Tenzen12
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Main point is, that Haruno is able live in society, while Yukino isn't. I think Hayato wish she were able do that cause she would be happier that way than be ethernaly in opposition and alone. To put it simply she should be able make compromises

And about their past I were wondering how whole that confessing stuff fit. Most obvious would be that she were bullied cause it, but Hayama guilt seems to be that of unable help and not one that feel responsible. In the end I think he weren't able help her due great gap that confession caused and which grew even more after that.
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Old 2013-05-26, 06:53   Link #615
terribad
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While I was researching to answer my own questions, I saw the recent comments. I found that much of the debate was covered by the evidence I was collecting. I decided to post it here. It's pretty much a bunch a copy and pastes from the summary of volume 4. Note, that the evidence is concerning two questions. What is the relationship between Yukino and Hayama in the past? What is/was Yukino's family situation? With regards to these two questions, it's pretty comprehensive; the only excluded things was when I was grasping at straws. Assuming we all agree with the summaries of volume 4 by LN spoiler. We now have some assumed reference to base all the interpretations on. It makes arguments much easier to comprehend, analyse and what have you for me at least. Also if you trust my work, you won't have to worry about forgetting any important details from volume 4.

The final two points that I need to say. I think context is important when extracting text. Accordingly, the evidence in a nut shell is usually only a few lines. It's the context which is majority of the text. Secondly, I tried to refrain paraphrasing the summaries at all. An interpretation of an interpretation is bound to be inaccurate.

Spoiler for Evidence from Volume 4:
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Old 2013-05-26, 07:07   Link #616
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Hmmm. . . it seems like Hayato behaves the same like a politician. He will do anything that can make himself look good and never will he risks his social status for the sake of others as he don't want to be hated for standing up against the norms.
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Old 2013-05-26, 07:28   Link #617
TheAlucid
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Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
Main point is, that Haruno is able live in society, while Yukino isn't. I think Hayato wish she were able do that cause she would be happier that way than be ethernaly in opposition and alone. To put it simply she should be able make compromises

And about their past I were wondering how whole that confessing stuff fit. Most obvious would be that she were bullied cause it, but Hayama guilt seems to be that of unable help and not one that feel responsible. In the end I think he weren't able help her due great gap that confession caused and which grew even more after that.
Again, pretty sure that Hayama never confessed to Yukinon. Yukinon was teased mercilessly from the get go for being cute and how being cute affected the lives of others around her. The series heavily implies that Hayama, rather than confessing to Yukinon, actually just sat back and watched it happen.

Yukinon hates Hayama because Hayama was her childhood friend, and instead of risking himself when she was in trouble he left her to the mercy of those around her. Terribad actually put together a great compilation of qoutes from the summary that cover this, quoted below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by terribad View Post
While I was researching to answer my own questions, I saw the recent comments. I found that much of the debate was covered by the evidence I was collecting. I decided to post it here. It's pretty much a bunch a copy and pastes from the summary of volume 4. Note, that the evidence is concerning two questions. What is the relationship between Yukino and Hayama in the past? What is/was Yukino's family situation? With regards to these two questions, it's pretty comprehensive; the only excluded things was when I was grasping at straws. Assuming we all agree with the summaries of volume 4 by LN spoiler. We now have some assumed reference to base all the interpretations on. It makes arguments much easier to comprehend, analyse and what have you for me at least. Also if you trust my work, you won't have to worry about forgetting any important details from volume 4.

The final two points that I need to say. I think context is important when extracting text. Accordingly, the evidence in a nut shell is usually only a few lines. It's the context which is majority of the text. Secondly, I tried to refrain paraphrasing the summaries at all. An interpretation of an interpretation is bound to be inaccurate.

Spoiler for Evidence from Volume 4:
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Old 2013-05-26, 08:02   Link #618
Tenzen12
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Hayato spoke first and he wanted to help as much as possible so long it's within his ability. Hikki says it's very in character for him to say that and says it's a gentle lie that would result in no one getting hurt but to Rumi it doesn't sound gentle at all. It's gentle only to people listening to Hayato.

"You can't do anything, didn't the same thing happen before?"

The words that tore apart Hayato's gentle sentence came from Yukinon who shot an icy gaze towards Hayato. He had a look of agony on his face for a split second but he says this time would be different but Yukinon says no one can tell. The atmosphere became heavy, Hikki wonders if anything happened between Yukinon and Hayato since Yukinon's attitude is very different but he claims to not care at all
Actualy It is obvious he did try, but were inafectual, instead.
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Old 2013-05-26, 08:26   Link #619
Wilshere
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Where can I find the summaries for the LNs? Dont seem to get hold of any
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Old 2013-05-26, 08:28   Link #620
Tenzen12
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Page 15 has links.
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