2011-06-29, 12:23 | Link #22981 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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You know the problem is that once Ange returned to Battler they had this conversation:
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Both of them acknowledge that what Ange saw was the truth even after Ange realizes that she was wrong. They are pretty clear here in my opinion, Ange learned the truth, the truth she was looking for and that was something she was better off not knowing. I therefore see no explanation as to why he previously told Ange that the truth didn't exist and she could never get what she wanted. Even if that was a metaphor it was really the wrong time to be cryptic. The only thing that I can get from all this is that Battler didn't want Ange to read that book and that he doesn't think that learning the truth is important at all. I agree with you, however, that the "truth" of that book was probably cold and only showing the negative side of the whole story, but yet it must be the truth. I think that's why Meta-Eva called it "garbage". Probably eva and evatrice represent two conflict sides in Eva, from one side she wanted Ange to know, from the other she didn't... who knows... As for Tohya... well we know that he was amnesiac and there is no certainty that the diary actually existed in the real world if you ask me. The whole scene where Featherinne is supposed to show the diary to the world is filled with magic, and the story that she somehow ended up getting hold of that diary even though she never had any relation with Eva stinks of a lie a mile away. I tend to think that it never really happened in the real world. In addition when Ange and Tohya meet I think tohya clearly said that he doesn't remember anything of what happened in those two day. Well it would really be a smartass statement if what he meant was that he technically didn't "remember" but he read the truth in Eva's diary. I prefer to think that he doesn't know.
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2011-06-29, 13:08 | Link #22982 | |
The True Culprit
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2011-06-29, 13:25 | Link #22983 | ||
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They might not have known about her existence as "the child of Kinzô who Natsuhi pushed down a cliff and the true heir of the fortune of Ushiromiya". But they seemed to be working together close enough to warrant Yasu some free time to write some 10-20 pages full of strange diary entries describing a serial murder. Quote:
Ange, as well as Bern, Erika and the witch hunters did not want to know "The Truth", they wanted to know "their truth". For Ange it was truth she formulated inside her heart and mind when she began a journey. That a terrible witch (a horrible person X) killed her family and made her miserable. The chance that someone she loved might be responsible for the tragedy was never even something she considered being a possible truth. Therefore she will never find truth within the catbox but will only be left with nothingness. We saw it when she read the objective truth. It destroyed her and it hurt her so much, that she was unable to accept it as truth. So much even that she had to formulate a golden truth within her heart...something that was maybe different from the facts but was still truth. |
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2011-06-29, 14:31 | Link #22984 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Nope he says that to Ange, btw I just noticed that it was already translated:
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Something like "the truth in that diary is not what you think it is, it will only cause you sadness" would have been a lot better. Battler's words choice only reinforced Ange's idea that he was lying. But you know, given Battler's total loss of words once Ange told him she knew that the truth was in the book pretty much convinces me that he was actually lying.
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2011-06-29, 14:36 | Link #22985 | ||
The True Culprit
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Anyway, I still stand by my idea that Battler is defensive because he's literally unable to tell her.
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2011-06-29, 17:51 | Link #22986 | |
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Anyway, the content of what Ange sees is somewhat dependent on what the thing she reads actually is. I mean, if it's a strict R-Prime narrative by Eva regarding her experience on those two days, it by necessity is going to be a somewhat limited narrative. It will be the truth, to the extent that Eva saw it and will be able to communicate it. That is, assuming Eva is reliable (to some extent) it will be observationally accurate; if Eva saw Yasu and Battler dragging a corpse somewhere or saw Kyrie shoot Rosa or whatever else she actually observed, that probably actually did happen. However, we have to assume Eva is not one of the parties privy to most of the background information swirling about Rokkenjima, so things she actually saw might lead her to draw the wrong conclusions or simply leave her uncertain. I can entirely see why she'd be conflicted about sharing that sort of thing with Ange. On the one hand, as the only survivor (that she knows of), she knows that only the things she saw can tell the "real story" to any extent at all. Imperfect information might be better than no information. On the other hand, if Eva began to doubt that she actually understood what was going on she might be conflicted about sharing the conclusions she may have drawn in the diary, particularly if they were made at a time when her thoughts were racing and her behavior was erratic. Given this, Ange would be reading a source which is factually true but which might present, depending on what Eva actually happened to see, something which Ange is not going to understand because Eva didn't fully understand it either. Assume for a second Battler is aware of this. His warning to Ange makes some degree of sense here. I mean, we have to assume whoever Eva met during those two days wasn't like "By the way, here's what's been going on the whole time, and also this is why I'm killing everybody I can. Allow me to give you a quick rundown of everything." There's no question Ange would learn information which she did not know. But she probably wouldn't get the A-to-Z comprehensive explanation of everything that happened and everything that mattered. Why would she? Eva wouldn't know any of that. There would still be room for Ange to draw her own conclusions and reinterpret the evidence as she wishes. In that sense, is it wrong to say "the catbox is empty?" The whole mistaken interpretation of the Schroedinger argument is predicated on the idea of scientific observation. You have a box, you close the box, later you open the box and look inside and document the results. In the case of Rokkenjima in 1986, it's more like the box exploded and the remains were fed through an industrial shredder. If a person happened to show up one day with a skin flake from the cat that they snuck out of the box before it blew up, well, that's some kind of information, but it's not quite the same as opening the box right before it blew. Battler clearly doesn't mean the box is literally empty, as that would be implying that there never was any information at all. That's not true. He means something more along the lines of "you can't ever open it." That is, whatever information may be contained within it is inaccessible, and from his perspective it's irrelevant what it actually is for that reason. To some extent he knows that it's wrong, inasmuch as there actually exists information that was taken from "inside the box." However, it's (potentially) misleading information. Therefore, from his anti-truth standpoint he's pretty much arguing that no information is better than possibly misinterpreted information. Ange seems to place value on knowing the information simply because it's the only information she's going to get. Eva and Battler have their own opinions as to whether this is a good idea. I'd argue myself that it definitely is, but that's more of a moral or ethical question than a narrative one; Ange could have gone either way depending on what would've given her the most closure. I don't think not knowing was going to do that for her though.
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2011-06-29, 19:08 | Link #22987 | ||
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I would agree with most of the things you said, except to small points I'd like to raise. (I'm just now rereading in order to refresh some memories and draw a (first) final conclusion for myself)
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So whoever had the ring during those 2 days on the island, Eva either got it by solving the Epitaph (which would mean she learned a whole lot from Yasu) or she took it from the one who solved the epitaph/killed Yasu...but both would get her rather close towards both the actual truth and the information behind the events. Eva also cannot have escaped by accident because it was made clear that the only way to reach Kuwadorian during the typhoon would be the hidden underground path. The door to that is in the back of the underground chamber...so she must have had that knowledge as well. So probably her knowledge of the events goes quite far... Quote:
I think you can say the catbox is still intact, but the content provides no logical answer to the questions you asked. You are told there was a cat which jumped in there and when opening it you found dust, a piece of a cat's ear and a rusty nail... 18 people went into that box, but only one person came out, you found a piece of another and some items that you never expected to turn up (like a magical stake, letters, a hidden mansion and so on). One of the biggest problems is, we never even put that content in there ourselves, we just believe it was in there in the first place. We are handed the box, we have reason to believe that those things that are said to be inside existed at some point in time...but maybe they fell beside the box when somebody poured it all in, or the person putting them into the box had a malicious intent and did not put it all in there. Well in the end that's the dillemma of a detective...he's not the one who created the box (which would be the culprit in the most ideal conflict scenario) but he's the one who opens it and has to make sense of it's content no matter how far removed it is from what he was told. |
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2011-06-29, 19:44 | Link #22988 | ||
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It's possible she knows a lot, and it's possible she knows very little. But even if she met Yasu, learned all about whatever she was willing to tell her, got the ring and learned all about what was going on, if Yasu wasn't the killer, then Eva would've been just as surprised as everybody else when murders started happening. Particularly if the next thing she sees of somebody is, say, Kyrie brandishing a gun or something. She'd have to fill in the blanks mentally, and because she can only be in one place at a time, Eva's narrative by necessity will have blanks. It can't not, unless all 16-18 people were standing around in the same room as each other the whole time everything went down. Quote:
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2011-06-30, 06:44 | Link #22989 | ||
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Maybe that really tells us, that beyond the preparation for the events Yasu, the witch legend and everything concerning the tragedy of the past, she really had nothing to do with the actual murders at all. Maybe it really did happen similar to what we saw in Bernkastel's reasoning. Like she said 「それは全て真実・・・とは限らない。」, "All of that is the truth...is something that does not necessarily have to be so.", it does not have to be all true, but it is probably pretty close to what happened. We know that Battler wasn't killed, he at least had contact with someone who told him about the hidden tunnels, the gold and Yasu (he probably even had that meeting at the balcony)...but there is probably some truth in what Bern reconstructed. Eva's knowledge won't be complete, but it will probably protray what happened without the intent to cover anything up...at least it is painted that way in the narrative. And those narrative keypoints are something we have to accept if we want the puzzle to be solvable. Quote:
Well...this is anti-mystery at it's finest I'd say |
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2011-06-30, 08:17 | Link #22990 |
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My point is more that even if Eva's account is 100% honest and truthful, it will only have value inasmuch as it relates to the things Eva saw and heard herself, and then only to a point.
Just as a random example, let's say once the murders began Eva never saw George or Battler again. She knows that everyone else has turned up dead, but she can't find either one of them. Let's say Eva then escapes, having never again seen so much as a sign of either of them. Eva knows that, say, Maria (to use a silly example by intent) is the killer. What she never knows is, did Maria kill George and Battler too? Were George or Battler helping Maria? Did they escape? Did something else happen? If she doesn't know, at best she can be honest and at worst she can draw a conclusion that isn't properly supported, even if it's reasonable. For example, she might conclude that Battler and George were both killed or died in the blast, simply because she's never seen any evidence since that they survived and reasonably believes they didn't. She can communicate this to Ange, but Ange can't draw any better conclusion, unless she has more information than Eva does. If she bumped into Battler or George on the street, for instance, obviously she'd know that they must have survived after Eva lost track of them. "The truth of the incident" may well mean that Eva learned who killed everyone, or why the blast was set off. But I'd venture to say she probably has some significant gaps in her story simply because she couldn't be everywhere at once. If you're Meta-Battler, there's at least some reason to believe that those gaps could wind up twisting the story the wrong way (even if Eva never intended that to happen). I don't agree with him, but at least you can kind of see his point.
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2011-06-30, 14:30 | Link #22991 | |
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Idle train of thought: Ange is the only other one referred to as "X-Beatrice", or at least has the potential to become Ange-Beatrice if she keeps believing in "magic" (if I recall correctly). Is this because she has the final power to hide the truth forever? |
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2011-06-30, 14:43 | Link #22993 | |
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Really, this is an idea that provides answers, and still kind of works, thematically. From what I know of EP8, I HAD entertained the thought that "Actually, maybe alot of people survived and they just went away to live new lives, because why not, and it's sad to think they all died." I'd always kind of excluded Yasu from that for some reason. And if Battler can "die" in that amnesia gets rid of the person that was there, Yasu can pull some internal self-perception shenanigans, too, sure... Damn ... Yasu surviving is probably the best explanation for the message bottles I've heard. XD |
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2011-06-30, 15:02 | Link #22995 |
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As you said Kealym, anyone can survive since the red is worthless; that's kind of the problem. There's no particular reason why more survivors are impossible, as there exist several avenues for a person to survive without being observed:
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2011-06-30, 15:46 | Link #22997 | |
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There's one big problem with 2: supplies Kinzo stopped having Kuwadorian stocked decades ago. Any supplies that was at Kuwadorian was probably moved to the mansion shortly after Beatrice 2's death; even if it hadn't, supplies probably wouldn't last long. Any supplies at the mansion would have been destroyed in the blast. There's no evidence of a lake on Rokkenjima, so fresh water, let alone food, would have run out quickly.
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2011-06-30, 15:54 | Link #22998 |
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We don't have to account for their continued survival so long as it's plausible they were alive for some length of time. Of course it's entirely possible someone would've survived and starved to death, but highly unlikely.
However, the "survivor writes messages, commits suicide" thing is entirely possible. You wouldn't need terribly much in the way of supplies if you intended to die anyway.
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2011-07-01, 03:58 | Link #23000 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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In a recent TIP translated by LyricalAura it seems to be implied that there has never been a knock in the first place.
As for the man from 19 years before we all know well who s/he is! And if you don't know yet you probably haven't read EP7. I could tell you, but do you really want to be spoiled? If yes Spoiler for EP7:
If not, consider that the story that Natsuhi told about that event in 1967 is true (except the "baby died" part of course). Reason about what else happened in 1967 and reason about who could plausibly have 19 years among the cast.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2011-07-01 at 04:12. |
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