[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[DokEnkephalin]

I might've read that EP4 scene wrong, and that it was actually Beatrice who was still in love with Battler, who wanted Battler to notice her, the big breasted blonde he fantasized about on the beach so long ago that she made herself over into. Maybe she resigned to leave it to Yasu, the one frustrated with her body and identity, who wouldn't have any love for anyone there.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

After watching Ep 8, I'm Rethinking Kyrie-trice. After all, the story of Yasu and Beatrice is merely Nothing more than the story of the Meta World. The Game Board

Jealousy is certainly a serious motive, and I doubt that someone as intellectual as Kyrie viewed succession any lesser than Eva herself. As for Rudolf, his company troubles were indeed well documented. Battler being an accomplice however seems a bit far fetched.

While elements of the game board can be deemed fictional, others can be deemed truthful. In short, the Ushiromiya Battler that loved his cousins, that didn't want to suspect any one of the 18(17) people, is that an illusion?

Believing in the tale of the gold, Kyrie and Rudolf conspired to commit murder. At some point in the twilights, Battler discovered that his parents were the culprits. However, Battler neither wanted to oppose his parents nor actually partake in the crime itself. So he feigned ignorance, in effect he wasn't an accomplice but more of an accessory to the crime after the fact.

The only reason we doubted Kyrie-trice is because of Knox's 8th, that clues had to be shown.
But clues were shown, at least for their possible motives. Also, clues were shown that a fake death corpse can in fact exist.

Perhaps Bernkastel's story is the cold hard truth that's hard to fathom because it paints the Ushiromiya's in such a corrupt light.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

To Krauss and Natsuhi, Shannon is one of the replaceable roster of servants, beneath their notice since it's Genji's job attend to such details. But Jessica has been friends with her for a long time; she still went by the name 'Yasu' when her mother first encouraged Jessica to become acquainted (but not too friendly) with her. If Jessica really didn't notice the change in name, appearance and personality, then is it just coincidence that the only two girls that age remained friends?

It can't be just a dismissible suspicion for Jessica; she may not be the top achiever, but it's not plausible that she's that unobservant. If she didn't immediately identify Kanon, and was incapable of catching his resemblance to someone she's kept company with for years, eventually she'd realize that the two servants on the island she likes to spent time with most are never together.

There was a tv show here. It helped people to play pranks. Pranks being tricking others into thinking you were another person. A teenager managed to trick all his classmates into thinking he was an old English teacher and they believed it until he made some obvious English mistakes around the end of the lesson (he was a fail at English, the tv show tried to teach him the strict necessary but he was nervous and made mistakes).

A whole class filled with his friends. A teenager not good at English passing for an old teacher.

I'll say Shannon by removing her breast, which likely people wouldn't assume she can remove, and changing her dress and voice can easily pass for an unsociable boy that tries to avoid Jessica, especially if her claim is continuously backed up by people like her parents, Genji and Kumasawa. I think she should have noticed 'hey, he sorta resemble Shannon' and but she should have stopped here because everyone pranking her for 2 years for apparently no reason would be hard to believe.

Also I'll say Natsuhi didn't encourage Jessica to be Shannon's friend, it was more Jessica who decided to be her friend regardless of Natsuhi.

Everyone complains that I'm just there to play with Milady.
And yet, Madam made it clear that I am not to think of Milady as a friend or speak to her in a casual manner.

"Even I had friends at school, but because of my work, there was no chance to deepen our friendship. Jessica was always kind and modest, but there was Natsuhi's stern order to think of, so we couldn't play together very much."

"Mom was always going on about not talking with the servant kids, but Shannon and I started to get close. After all, she was the girl closest to me in age on Rokkenjima."
"All four of us played together. We played at every family conference. Right, Shannon?"
"......Right. I knew that Madam would scold me if she found out, but......"
"I wouldn't have let her! You were always the one close friend I had who could understand me...!"
"Thank you for your words, ......Milady..."

And Yasu didn't go by the name of Yasu in front of Jessica or the cousins. Yasu was a nick given to her by the servants based on the fact her full name was Yasuda Sayo. As soon as she got on Rokkenjima she received a blessed name, Shannon, and people used it to call her.
The adult Shannon who is her friend is either a fantasy or, if based on a real person, her vessel is a friend she had at Fukuin (as Shannon was her friend at Fukuin) and that didn't follow her there or a servant who actually had a different blessed name but, since Yasu wants to become like her and make Shannon her superego, in her mind she's Shannon.

Although the manga implied more clearly that Shannon was only Yasu's fantasy.

Originally Posted by Renall

Yet Battler's game shows that Kinzo actually does care about his own kids, so how do we know that Kinzo (and by extension, Genji) didn't as well? Hell, how do we know Genji didn't feel some sympathy for Kinzo's real kids and even knowing that Kinzo wanted Yasu to have everything, hoped that Yasu would show some compassion for the adults? I find it hard to believe he'd think it's totally cool to just dump the four of them and their families, especially since George/Jessica/Battler/Maria/Ange have done nothing wrong and certainly don't deserve to lose everything.

Hell, Yasu likes all of those kids (except maybe Ange). Why would she want something bad to befall them? Given her reaction to getting the gold and headship, maybe her just wanting to give it all away is precisely something Genji could get behind. If the two of them decided to set up a mystery game to both make Battler remember and reward everybody by splitting up the gold to solve their problems, it'd certainly tidy up everything that everybody wants. I don't see why anyone would feel compelled to kill over it... at least why Yasu wouldn't. She gets basically everything she wants out of the way except her love triangle issue and maybe the game can resolve that too.

It's one of the problems of Umineko by presenting the various sides of a person as 'absolutes' (Kinzo fun and loving grandad vs Kinzo severe, abusive, uncaring and rapist) it makes hard to find the truth that is in the middle.

If good is while and black is evil we can't really see which shade of grey the characters are. Was George really willing to kill to have Shannon? Was Eva, or everyone else, really willing to side with someone who aimed to murder their siblings and their kids for money?

What about characters remaining true to who they are? Were they all 'killers who didn't get a chance' as Kyrie put in?

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

Kinzo's obsession was in part due to guilt for the same reason that Genji felt it was wiser to disguise Lion as a servant and keep her distant; molesting and impregnating Beatrice II. Also can't forget that Beatrice I was the love of his life, unlike his arranged wife and the mother of the rest of his children, so they were neglected over his grief and the desperate hope he could be forgiven.

Problem is it wasn't wiser.
Kinzo didn't go after Beato 2 because she was his daughter but because she reminded him of her mother. If Shannon were to remind him of 1 of the 2 Beatrices what would stop him from pursuing her?
His wife is death, Shannon isn't related to him, Shannon isn't even in a position to oppose to him if he tells her to go into his room and Shannon, living the life she live might be even unable to tell him 'no' were he to order her to undress and lie in the bed.

Honestly leaving her at the Fukuin house and having someone adopt her was a lot more safe.

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

If Yasu did nothing else, she did set the bomb, or presented it as an option, or misled as to which side of the switch was active. She was in two doomed romances and still hung up on a third, so she pretty much cast her fate to chance in a way that risked everything and everyone. But I don't see how she could be considered some grand puppetmaster over these personalities with their own conflicting volition when there's no evidence she took any action at all over the 4 episodes; the only time she appeared to surface is when questioning Battler from the rooftop.

In the 4 games from Beato the Yasu culprit is the intended solution. In Our confession is clearly stated she killed everyone by shooting them or by other means.
The only think for which we have little evidence is if she killed someone in Prime. However, since the manga confirmed Kinzo is really dead, it was likely her who sent the money to people so she did something.

Many thinks she didn't (and Ryukishi's words seemed to imply the responsible where the adults) but as the solution is in a catbox we can't tell for sure.

[DokEnkephalin]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

Perhaps Bernkastel's story is the cold hard truth that's hard to fathom because it paints the Ushiromiya's in such a corrupt light.

Not to dispute the rest of it, but Bernkastel's EP7 and 8 games are suspect because it's shown later she had to create a Black Battler for the scenario. No piece can act against their nature even when controlled, so this is evidence that Battler isn't capable of murder.

The same assurance isn't given for his parents, though it doesn't seem out of their character to take advantage ruthlessly, or defend themselves ruthlessly, so they wouldn't have to be forgeries in order to kill. What bugs me about the late EP7 is that, at the end of a whole episode themed on 'love is motive', Kyrie seems to have the least personal motive. She seems completely cold to everyone, ready to abandon the husband she supposedly wanted for a decade, and indifferent even to her own daughter.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

but as the solution is in a catbox we can't tell for sure.

*facepalm*

Yeah, R07 also had a lot to say about excuses for not thinking.

[AuraTwilight]

Not to dispute the rest of it, but Bernkastel's EP7 and 8 games are suspect because it's shown later she had to create a Black Battler for the scenario. No piece can act against their nature even when controlled, so this is evidence that Battler isn't capable of murder.

No. Black Battler isn't a separate piece from 'Battler Ushiromiya' in any meanful way as far as the Gameboard exists. The Battler/Black Battler distinction is entirely meta. Bernkastel's actions demonstrate that while a piece may not act against its nature, the writer can define the nature of the pieces to be whatever he or she wants. It's completely arbitrary and the rule exists only as a show of good faith on Beatrice's part, just like all her other self-imposed rules that no one else ever follows.

Alternatively, I can turn all of this right back around on you since the Battler we get to know is essentially an idealization of Battler written by someone who hasn't seen him in six years and has a vested interest in placing him beyond suspicion.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Bernkastel's actions demonstrate that while a piece may not act against its nature, the writer can define the nature of the pieces to be whatever he or she wants. It's completely arbitrary and the rule exists only as a show of good faith on Beatrice's part, just like all her other self-imposed rules that no one else ever follows.

Well, I'd say they are completely arbitrary on the gameboards. They can run free as much as they want, but at a certain point they run into the reality of people who are observing these boards and this is one of the big problems for many people I think.
We have things like culprit Eva in EP3, where in the end she goes up to Battler and shoots him, which suits the overall gameboard, but then we have people like Okonogi in 1998 who say things like, "Yeah, sorry, but the way she behaved at the funeral...that wasn't acting. And her whole behavior wouldn't fit a cunning murderer at all!" So like Lambda said, the truth of the present erases the truth of the past.

So if in the truth some evidence arises that Battler was actually a lying scumbag, who used up more women in his 18 years than his father in his lifetime, then a theory like Black Battler is not even that unlikely.
Technically every different incarnation of a character is a piece in itself on the board, and though their shape may be the same, their content can be quite different.

[Renall]

The difference is that truth may not be true, which does make it fairly arbitrary. Even if the Kyrie & Rudolf Culprit theory was popular in Ange's future, that doesn't retroactively make it true or suddenly mean that Kyrie could always be a mass murderer... and given that she was 0/2 in the original message bottle stories in terms of surviving even the First Twilight, it seems Beatrice didn't consider her too seriously for that purpose.

So, is that really a "truth of the present," when we know it's just speculation on the part of people in the future? Is blaming Eva really a "truth" when we know the only real reason Ange seeks to "prove" it is because it's easy and allows her to justify her lack of empathy for Eva? In the same sense, does it even need to be true, or even reasonable, that a particular character is advanced as a killer in a Forgery? Battler was in on it in Bern's ep8 game but there doesn't seem to be any prior evidence to suggest he'd go along with that (and the ep7 TP suggested he actually wouldn't); how many people need to actually believe Battler is capable of it for something like a Black Battler to exist? You really only need one witch, and as Ange has shown, they don't have to be intellectually honest or emotionally uninvested to do it.

[DokEnkephalin]

BBattler himself said he existed because Bernkastel wished it -- where do you think he got those cat eyes? Remember, in EP7 she was playing to an audience of witches (a thinly veiled metaphor for R07's audience,) and promising them an unhappy ending. Why would she create a duplicate piece if the one already present could serve the same function?

Would Eva necessarily need to be a cunning killer in order to be controlled as one? It's shown she's capable of cunning, and would kill either in self-defense or a loss of temper. Better question: would she need to be a cunning killer to appear to be one? She wouldn't necessarily have to premeditate or clean up after herself if there's someone running around, inciting her and playing on her suspicions, staging baffling and mysterious crime scenes out of the bodies she leaves behind.

I couldn't see Rudolf and Kyrie pulling off a killing spree independently, and one or both have died in the first four episodes. However, Beatrice's encouragement and assistance in confusing the crimes might be enough to motivate either of them, if they could get her support somehow.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Renall

and given that she was 0/2 in the original message bottle stories in terms of surviving even the First Twilight, it seems Beatrice didn't consider her too seriously for that purpose.

Which could of course just as well have been her downfall. Not considering somebody to be competent enough to serve a purpose also implies her failing to consider Kyrie a hindrance.

So, is that really a "truth of the present," when we know it's just speculation on the part of people in the future? Is blaming Eva really a "truth" when we know the only real reason Ange seeks to "prove" it is because it's easy and allows her to justify her lack of empathy for Eva? In the same sense, does it even need to be true, or even reasonable, that a particular character is advanced as a killer in a Forgery?

I suppose that something which could obviously proven to be wrong would not gain much of a following and the Forgery wouldn't gain much power. In meta-world terms that would mean that this specific culprit wouldn't rise in ranks among the more favored ones.

The above ones are maybe not THE truth, but they are a possible truth and for some people (like Ange) might even become a (temporary) reality. Didn't many of us grow up in a time where it was considered truth that dinosaurs were cold-blooded? That saccharin causes cancer? That a big part of our DNA doesn't matter? Actually there are theories that over half of the "facts" of today will be proven wrong in the near future again and again.
That doesn't necessarily mean that we are unable to find THE truth, we just don't have any idea what it is, just like with Rokkenjima, and even if we hit upon it it would actually be fairly accidental. Pretty close to the Gettier problem, actually.

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

BBattler himself said he existed because Bernkastel wished it

No, I don't see him ever saying that.
In Forgery No. XXX Ronove actually hinted that the first game they ever met each other was Land of the Golden Witch, which would imply that he was actually created among one of the red-herring culprits in the midst of Beato/Yasu's many mystery games. Then they met each other in an unknown game named Trinity of the Golden Witch (where I have to imagine Beato, EVA and B-Battler working together) and Bernkastel's EP8 board is actually only considered the last one by the outside world.

Why would she create a duplicate piece if the one already present could serve the same function?

Black Battler is as much as duplicate of Beato's Good Guy Battler as Shannon and Kanon or Older and Younger Beato are different characters on the Meta-Plane. They are separated because their characterization drives them apart, but essentially their origin is one singular being in the real world.

I couldn't see Rudolf and Kyrie pulling off a killing spree independently, and one or both have died in the first four episodes. However, Beatrice's encouragement and assistance in confusing the crimes might be enough to motivate either of them, if they could get her support somehow.

But what does it tell us that they died in the first four Episodes? EP1 and 2 where written before the incident and the characterization is derived from a damaged young girls image of those people. EP3 was possibly Hachijo Toya's first attempt to recreate the events and he immediately stumbled upon problems after problems, possibly by using the same "What if Eva killed everyone" logic. EP4 leaves plenty room for a lot of people to be any kind of culprit in the chain of events.

The problem is that we draw these ideas about people from fictional depictions of them. This raises the question how far we can believe them and is what drives Ange up the wall in EP8. Her brother decides to show her the wonderful side of his family that he remembers, but that is not the kernel she is looking for, she is searching for the blackness inside them...so much that she does not believe in anything but that blackness anymore.

Is EP8 Kinzo less true because less people have written about him? Is something truer because more people write about and/or believe it? Yes, there is evidence to believe that Kinzo had a very dark side to himself, apparently storing explosives under his family's home, locking himself away from his peers, preferring his incompetent son over his fairly ambitious daughter even implied some severe misogyny, but does that mean he could not have had a caring side to him?
People like to order the world into black and white patterns, people like Stalin, Hirohito, or other historical "monsters" are all simplified in order to make it easier for people to take a side. This simplification sometimes goes to the point of caricature and this also happened to Kinzo, to the point where he is a screaming, slobbering madman, who is conveniently inconsistent except his one and only goal, Beatrice.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Which could of course just as well have been her downfall. Not considering somebody to be competent enough to serve a purpose also implies her failing to consider Kyrie a hindrance.

That seems odd, given that so much praise is lavished on her intellect in the early parts of Legend and Turn. She is, after all, essentially Battler's intellectual mentor; that's something Yasu herself put in that first episode. And unlike Eva in Legend, there doesn't seem to be any sort of thematic implication that Kyrie is undone by her own cleverness. However, she doesn't lack it; we're just never shown how she might react to anything.

Perhaps one could argue it's because Yasu didn't know how Kyrie might react to things. But we just don't know for sure. Tohya seems to think she'd be clever enough to act against her perception of the culprit (Banquet and Alliance). But what if she was offered a chance to be an accomplice?

Originally Posted by haguruma

I suppose that something which could obviously proven to be wrong would not gain much of a following and the Forgery wouldn't gain much power. In meta-world terms that would mean that this specific culprit wouldn't rise in ranks among the more favored ones.

Consider the following scenario: Twilight exists and is exactly the same except Ange is the only person in the entire world who is convinced that Eva is in any way responsible. The entire rest of the world believes she had nothing to do with it, but Ange stubbornly holds out that belief.

Does the impact of Twilight actually change in any way? Should the meta-landscape change, given that it's all for Ange's sake anyway? The image is no less powerful to her, and she is the intellectual focus of the events.

Similarly if one were to spin a Fragment that is more or less entirely meaningless to nearly everyone, such as a Lion Fragment which the people of the world at large "know" to be entirely untrue, does that mean it can't mean something to someone? Will didn't seem to give a damn that Lion is little more than a happy dream, and knowing that didn't seem to color his perception of Lion's existence or his world or his right to survive and be happy.

[DokEnkephalin]

The only knowable truths about what really happened on Rokkenjima are the consistencies between the game, and the details of how they vary signify less than the broader truth they indicate. All these fictional depictions are true; this is a family that can be affectionate and united, with all their rivalries, grudges, ambitions, and personality conflicts amplified by the dire financial conditions they brought to the conference with them (Though the way Kinzo's kids relate makes me wonder if there really weren't evil demons on the island, influencing them while growing up.)

EDIT: Ah, that quote from Black Battler to Bernkastel was in Ougon Musou CROSS, which doesn't have very solid canonicity. Since there's nothing on him in the original text, Battler's actions in EP8 show that his piece, and he by extension, is capable of murder, so could be the EP5 culprit.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Renall

Consider the following scenario: Twilight exists and is exactly the same except Ange is the only person in the entire world who is convinced that Eva is in any way responsible. The entire rest of the world believes she had nothing to do with it, but Ange stubbornly holds out that belief.

Twilight is a strange horse anyway, more than any other Chiru Episode this one seems to be more a meta-level representation of several works, ideas, theories, emotions from different times, places and stances clashing together in a big mash of color.

While reading the EP8 manga and comparing it to the VN I have made up my own idea about what the fuck it's supposed to tell us anyway and why Ange is acting like a dimwit who has never encountered certain events before.
Twilight, I am pretty sure by now, is not necessarily a book published with shit going down, but more the kernel of what Battler wants Ange to see. That made me wonder why Ange has to become a child for these events. Yes, she is going to Rokkenjima when she was only 6 years old, but more than that she is meeting Battler in a church as a child crying because people are accusing her parents of murdering people. So what if EP8 shows Ange's journey, which we looked at from the outside in EP4, from a meta-perspective?

So there is this message that Battler/Tohya wants to have imparted on his poor sister, which is "Your family wasn't that bad!" This is probably something she heard from several people, like Eva even.
In the beginning she plays along, but her memory of certain things (like Kinzo) and the public image of others (like Kinzo and Eva) are largely different and she is increasingly unable to believe in that image.
Then the media and the forgeries come along, which is basically Bern's mystery game, when a young Ange is thrown into this mess of gory fanfiction and doesn't know what's true anymore. Finally she hears of the most horrible theory, her family being responsible, and it almost destroys her.
To the rescue come (A) the possibility to become a seeker of truth herself, marked by Erika's arrival, and (B) a very obvious culprit in the form of the sole survivor, marked by the arrival of EVA-Beatrice.
This leads to her encounter with Bernkastel, her decision on the roof to chase after the truth of 1986, but it is not necessarily a search for the truth but also an escape from the uncertainty that she considers herself in.
You could even consider that Featherine and Bern telling her about the Book of the One Truth is her gaining knowledge of Eva's diary being sold of and her struggle whether to read it or not.

So I think discussing Twilight is quite a messy situation and has a much less clearly defined distinction between what is written and what is imagined, which admittedly grows weaker and weaker as the series progresses anyway.

Similarly if one were to spin a Fragment that is more or less entirely meaningless to nearly everyone, such as a Lion Fragment which the people of the world at large "know" to be entirely untrue, does that mean it can't mean something to someone?

But still, Lion is a comparatively weak existence in meta-terms. He is clearly a lot more fictional than for example Kyrie and Rudolph culprit pieces or even Black Battler. There is at least evidence that could lead one to consider there existence, but there was never a big brother to Ushiromiya Jessica, not in any schools, not in any news reports, not in anybody's memory. This makes it so easy for Bernkastel (and thus the side searching for nothing more than an entertaining solution) to crush him, because he can't defend himself against the fact that there is no happy Ushiromiya family in the future.

But it can still mean something to somebody. To anybody who knows what that single piece called Lion stands for.

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

The only knowable truths about what really happened on Rokkenjima are the consistencies between the game, and the details of how they vary signify less than the broader truth they indicate. All these fictional depictions are true;

I would say even the consistencies among boards are arbitrary, they only need to serve one purpose, to make a coherent argument. I could write 100.000 games in which Gohda hates the whole family for ruining his career and wants to money to get away and open his own restaurant. As long as no evidence disrupts this, it is a truth...but not necessarily the truth.
He could even be the culprit, but for completely different reasons than I have just given.

[Kealym]

I still argue that when a piece is described as being only able to do what's possible for them, it's just that ... on the top most level, Ryukishi has a pretty certain idea of who these people are, and as a courtesy, he will generally (justabout always) not stray from those ideas. In Our Confessions, also, Beatrice gives an impression of taking people's personalities in mind when going about stringing accomplices / planning around non-accomplice reactions.

There is, generally, a sense that each person is acting pretty much as they really would in any given situation, IMO, and the only real outliers are EP7 shootemup Kyrie, which was blatant trolling, and EP8 Kyrolf-ttler, which we were told we didn't need to think about a whydunnit for, anyway.

I think it's like levelling characters in Fire Emblem, where each stat has an innate x/100 chance of improving upon a level up : the exactitudes vary from playthrough to playthrough, and sometimes you get strange outlier instances ("whoa my mage maxed out defense and HP this time"), but you will clearly see strong trends that allow you to speak about the characters with pretty high accuracy, to other fans, ("so and so tends to be really fast and good with swords, etc)

...also, Gohda hates the whole family for ruining his career and wants to money to get away and open his own restaurant. No evidence disrupts this, Wow hagurama, ROLLING WITH IT.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Kealym

There is, generally, a sense that each person is acting pretty much as they really would in any given situation, IMO, and the only real outliers are EP7 shootemup Kyrie, which was blatant trolling, and EP8 Kyrolf-ttler, which we were told we didn't need to think about a whydunnit for, anyway.

Well, yeah, I'd argue that people act how they likely would in a given situation is a given but only because the majority of the Episodes is written from the perspective of people who have at least an idea who these people were. It's possible to construct a theory in which Will actually does stand for an investigator who was hired by forgery authors. The first part of the game would simply be him gathering clues from interviews, documents, files, etc. and then presenting his conclusion to the individual authors, who then went 180 and from that created the Rudolph-Kyrie culprit theory.

Lion could very well exist as a fictional construct by people who got to the right solution, which accidentally hits the nail on the head, by putting elements like the possible existence of a secret lovechild, inconsistencies in the characters of the young servants, interviews with people like Kawabata, etc.

But I'd still say that nothing prevents you from creating a piece that does not coincide with anything in reality. Take the magical beings, the stakes, the Chiesters, EVA, Gaap, nothing prevents people to write stories with them in them...they don't necessarily act like their counterparts would act and are only bound by the gamemaster/author's understanding of the world.
We agree on characters, but that doesn't mean it must necessarily be true, that's what Battler's whole schtick with EP8 Kinzo was about. Close to the whole world apparently agrees on him being a madman who wouldn't flinch at the thought of killing all of his family to be reunited with his past lover. A ruthless businessman. He's a coldhearted bastard who hates his whole family and would rather see them dead then inherit anything.
Most people agree on this because this is how Kinzo portrayed himself and was portrayed to the people outside of his family.

...also, Gohda hates the whole family for ruining his career and wants to money to get away and open his own restaurant. No evidence disrupts this, Wow hagurama, ROLLING WITH IT.

Yeah, let's create a counterboard to EP8 where everybody is at their worst! Nobody has a good side, not even Eva

[Renall]

Originally Posted by haguruma

But still, Lion is a comparatively weak existence in meta-terms. He is clearly a lot more fictional than for example Kyrie and Rudolph culprit pieces or even Black Battler. There is at least evidence that could lead one to consider there existence, but there was never a big brother to Ushiromiya Jessica, not in any schools, not in any news reports, not in anybody's memory. This makes it so easy for Bernkastel (and thus the side searching for nothing more than an entertaining solution) to crush him, because he can't defend himself against the fact that there is no happy Ushiromiya family in the future.

Unless there was. I mean, we don't know the world of 1986-blew-up, Eva-survived, Battler-survived-with-amnesia, Ange-grows-up-under-those-circumstances is Prime. We don't even know for sure that there is a "Prime," especially when x-factors like Featherine come into play. How can we know Lion was a happy dream of Yasu and not that the dream of Lion being happy is nothing more than a thought by a happy Lion of what might have been had he not been so fortunate?

Admittedly that's a solipsistic argument and probably not to be taken too seriously, but even so. We believe Lion is a weak existence because that's what we were shown, but as I've pointed out, it's all but a mathematical certainty that there are infinite Lion Fragments. Or, if not, it's always possible to just create one if one knows how. We know that in our reality, there never was an Ushiromiya family to begin with, so it's certainly in one sense unusual to believe any of these fictional planes are any more or less real than the others. Sure, in relation to Ange's world, a Lion world is unsupported and nobody believes it, but I imagine the same can be said of a happy Lion world with no disaster where 1998 Ange would still be living with her parents and would laugh off the notion that any of that silly stuff about hating her aunt happened.

And if we do want to fixate on Ange's world being Prime, then in Twilight we're dealing with Prime-Ange and pretty much the entire episode is structured around how she thinks, so it doesn't really matter to her whether certain facts and portrayals actually are true or false, since she's got her own preconceptions about what she will accept. I suppose that's a point that Battler could have made but didn't make very well in the VN, that it really doesn't matter if his portrayal of the happier nicer family is the truth or complete whitewashing, because it's there to make a point to Ange. In general I think Twilight does a poor job of explaining that these fictions can quite literally be nothing but and still have a purpose for real people, despite that being a pretty important theme in solving the boards. I guess Ryukishi just assumed we all knew that already, but I think it was important to reflect on it a bit harder. The manga arguably does do this a bit better.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Renall

Admittedly that's a solipsistic argument and probably not to be taken too seriously, but even so. We believe Lion is a weak existence because that's what we were shown, but as I've pointed out, it's all but a mathematical certainty that there are infinite Lion Fragments.

Even if it's not to be taken too seriously (which is debatable) it is still a fascinating argument and yes, I also believe that technically this could all be broken down even further. We could go so far and say that none of the events ever happened in the first place and all of the events are fictional. The question of where to draw the line between fact and fiction is fairly important to Anti-mystery and the postmodern mystery genre in general, so I consider thinking in that direction a strength rather than a weakness.
In Takemoto Kenji's Comfort Lost within the Box (匣の中の失楽) the whole plot changes depending on which one of two solution patterns the reader subscribes to. The whole plot, except the prologue and the epilogue are a novel named How was the Locked Room created? written by Niles, a character within the story, but one half is considered to be based on actual events and the other half is complete fiction. It is either every even numbered chapter which is fiction or every uneven numbered, but a clear answer is never given.

Considering this whole background of novels, which Ryukishi seems to have read, it is maybe not that wrong to approach Umineko a little bit more theoretical in the context of it's genre. Not that I consider him having contributed anything groundbreaking or new, but it helps to understand what Umineko's context is.

I guess Ryukishi just assumed we all knew that already, but I think it was important to reflect on it a bit harder. The manga arguably does do this a bit better.

I don't even remember how well the VN did or did not portray this aspect, but it was pretty clear to me that this is where it was supposed to head. But I agree that at least the manga is very obvious about this point, having Battler say stuff like:
"But of course your big brother has a decision he wants you to choose, because I believe that "this" is the best choice for you."
"Yes, this is all just a fiction I created...and because it is a game I spun, I was able to mix you too into an IF scenario of "what if you had come to the island"...all because there is something more important than truth that I want to impart on you."
"My game is about making you understand that!"
Even Beato admits,
"You are right...this is a farce. If all this was the truth, then no tragedy would have occurred, right? ...but even if it is a farce, we want to impart something on you with it."
Battler even adds later:
"Having constructed this gameboard I could proclaim in red that "the relatives got along just wonderful."
"But no matter how many hundred truths I give you, it wouldn't be enough"
"Please, somehow, see through all of it and find your own truth with unclouded eyes."

[Renall]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Considering this whole background of novels, which Ryukishi seems to have read, it is maybe not that wrong to approach Umineko a little bit more theoretical in the context of it's genre. Not that I consider him having contributed anything groundbreaking or new, but it helps to understand what Umineko's context is.

The reason I say it's not to be taken too seriously is simply that the author doesn't seem to have left enough ambiguity to make the claim. Pretty much the entirety of ep7 is structured around the idea of Lion's existence being a fantasy and Will doesn't really defend Lion as much on the basis of "How do you know this happy world isn't the truth?" but on "You're just being a dick now, Bern."

Had there been a character who chooses to believe that Lion's happy world is reality and that there can be no tragedy, it might have been an interesting diversion, but it also would've mucked up any flow between Requiem and Twilight. From a story construction perspective I understand why it isn't in there, but it also means it's harder to make the "What if Lion's world is the real one?" argument with any intellectual earnestness, because the story itself doesn't seem to take that as even being a possibility.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Renall

From a story construction perspective I understand why it isn't in there, but it also means it's harder to make the "What if Lion's world is the real one?" argument with any intellectual earnestness, because the story itself doesn't seem to take that as even being a possibility.

Well, it basically depends on what you consider fact and what fiction. If you believe in the dimension traveling witches who torture people by altering certainty and probability so far that events always lead to a bad outcome, then you can also believe in Lion.
Technically, even the moral argument of Will kind of stands, even though Lion is not real per se it is something that could have happened, and to run even this into the ground just goes beyond finding truth.
But yes, the story doesn't lend too much room to doubt that Ange's 1998 exists.

Btw. going through the manga again, I found the conversation between Battler and Beato in the VIP room quite enlightening, also regarding a prior discussion here about the content of Dawn. Their conversation, especially with the added pictures, seems to reveal a lot more about the intent of the stories than the VN let out.

Spoiler for EP8 manga picture:

So Dawn was apparently supposed to be a story where no crime happens at all. Makes you wonder how it ended on paper, or if it maybe actually was just like Ange read it, with fantasy and everything.

Also interesting how Beato reacts when Ange accuses her that the message bottles were her several plans to murder everybody, that she was scheming a gruesome serial murder case by fanning the fire of discord among the siblings by revealing a little bit of the gold to them. Beato's only reaction is, "My my...so that's how the people of 1998 see me? Well...it's kinda understandable."
This kinda leads further down the path that there actually was no plan to murder the whole family.

[GreyZone]

So was it actually Dawn, that Battler put into Beato's "grave"? (Well in the manga that scene did not even happen...)

[Renall]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Also interesting how Beato reacts when Ange accuses her that the message bottles were her several plans to murder everybody, that she was scheming a gruesome serial murder case by fanning the fire of discord among the siblings by revealing a little bit of the gold to them. Beato's only reaction is, "My my...so that's how the people of 1998 see me? Well...it's kinda understandable."
This kinda leads further down the path that there actually was no plan to murder the whole family.

If the message bottles were written pre-incident, I'd think so. You'd have to be a ballsy or stupid criminal to write out all your various plans to commit murders before you actually commit them. God forbid anybody find those things before you're ready, after all.

Also, Beatrice's entire attitude in Our Confession really makes it hard to see the stories as plans. She structures them very methodically as crimes, but pays more attention to the presentation of them than to how she'd actually accomplish them. It's not simply "person goes here, kill them here," it's all about integrating the fantasy and exploding toilets and stuff that is really quite extraneous to any sort of murder plan. I mean, there's no point in structuring misdirection in an attempt to get away with it when you're going to just blow up all the evidence anyway, so the entire idea just doesn't really seem to stand up under scrutiny.

Also it's a bit strange that Ange raises that point (in both the VN and manga, but the manga goes into more detail) and then... seems to forget about Beatrice entirely once she begins focusing on Eva. Wha?