One Piece - Chapter 523 [Manga]

[marvelB]

Originally Posted by kissthestick

remind me the scene

I'm referring to this:






See? You can tell that Robin is sitting on Usopp's lap. I actually found it rather amusing how the anime expanded on this scene by having Corgi (that old government dude) shouting for Robin to take off her cloak before Usopp blasted him.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Very interesting chapter. What I want to know is, was Jimbei actually coerced into his imprisonment or did he willingly let himself get imprisoned? I find it hard to imagine that there would be marine officers strong enough to physically restrain him and put him into one of the cells in Impel Down, considering that he is a warlord after all. Only an admiral might be able to subdue him and even then it would certainly be no easy task.

Also, we got confirmation that six out of the seven warlords would participate in the upcoming war. This really pleased me since it means that Moria, despite his defeat at Thriller Bark, would end up fighting against Whitebeard's forces. Also, now that he has completely lost his zombie army, he is going to have to fight in an entirely different way than he did on Thriller Bark. Moria was an indirect fighter at Thriller Bark since he always relied on others to do his battles; a strategist if you will. Now, he is going to have to fight in a much more direct manner since he is by himself. I'm sure that this time we will see him use his shadow powers in ways we did not see before. His doppleman can be very troublesome for any opponent and if he manages to take any shadows from Whitebeard's commanders, they will be instantly knocked out and that will be the end for them.

To whoever said that Moria is not going to be a big help at all, you should retract your statement. I would think that by now he should be fully recovered, since he does have Dr. Hogback (who must have an exceptional aptitude for healing people) by his side after all. Even though he lost to Luffy, which he shouldn't have since he got BSed by plot and circumstances, the World Government wanted him to continue being a warlord. This implies that the World Government clearly acknowledges him as a force to be reckoned with and that he is very strong.

[Freya]

Originally Posted by marvelB

I'm referring to this:






See? You can tell that Robin is sitting on Usopp's lap. I actually found it rather amusing how the anime expanded on this scene by having Corgi (that old government dude) shouting for Robin to take off her cloak before Usopp blasted him.

What chapter is that?

[marvelB]

Originally Posted by Freya

What chapter is that?

It's chapter 370.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

To whoever said that Moria is not going to be a big help at all, you should retract your statement. I would think that by now he should be fully recovered, since he does have Dr. Hogback (who must have an exceptional aptitude for healing people) by his side after all. Even though he lost to Luffy, which he shouldn't have since he got BSed by plot and circumstances, the World Government wanted him to continue being a warlord. This implies that the World Government clearly acknowledges him as a force to be reckoned with and that he is very strong.

I dunno if this is referring to me, but I never really said that Moria wouldn't be any help. I was just wondering if he's still in a good enough condition to fight on his own at this point (wasn't it said that his Shadows Asgard put too much of a strain on his body?). I mean, if Zoro wasn't able to fully recover by the time he reached Sabaody, then Moria may not have completely healed yet either, even with the aid of Hogback. Well, whether he's fully healed or not, I still expect him to pull off some interesting tricks for the Whitebeard battle..... he's my favorite Shichibukai, after all.



I still rather like the idea of his power being used to create zombie Pacifistas, personally. I kinda doubt that Whitebeard and his men will bother to carry tons of salt on them while locked in a huge battle to the death with the rest of the Marine/Shichibukai forces.....

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by marvelB

I dunno if this is referring to me, but I never really said that Moria wouldn't be any help. I was just wondering if he's still in a good enough condition to fight on his own at this point (wasn't it said that his Shadows Asgard put too much of a strain on his body?). I mean, if Zoro wasn't able to fully recover by the time he reached Sabaody, then Moria may not have completely healed yet either, even with the aid of Hogback. Well, whether he's fully healed or not, I still expect him to pull off some interesting tricks for the Whitebeard battle..... he's my favorite Shichibukai, after all.

Moria was not nearly as beat up as Zoro was... i mean, when it comes down to it, Moria actually went down faster then he should have; as in he normally might have been able to take more damage before being KO'd... One of the major factors in moria's defeat was him attempting to use 1000 shadows; this resulted in him being barely able to maintain consciousness once Luffy started pounding away at him... in theory, Moria actually went down sooner because those shadows helped him to loose consciousness sooner (in a sense, Moria defeated himself by trying to bite more then he could chew; he might have done better if he took in fewer shadows)

Zoro on the other hand got a beating from Ryuma, Oz, and took on all the damage that Luffy recieved...

[marvelB]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Moria was not nearly as beat up as Zoro was... i mean, when it comes down to it, Moria actually went down faster then he should have; as in he normally might have been able to take more damage before being KO'd... One of the major factors in moria's defeat was him attempting to use 1000 shadows; this resulted in him being barely able to maintain consciousness once Luffy started pounding away at him... in theory, Moria actually went down sooner because those shadows helped him to loose consciousness sooner (in a sense, Moria defeated himself by trying to bite more then he could chew; he might have done better if he took in fewer shadows)

Zoro on the other hand got a beating from Ryuma, Oz, and took on all the damage that Luffy recieved...

Well, as I said, the strain of absorbing all those shadows may have resulted in Moria having a longer than normal (in OP anyway) recovery time. But I don't doubt Moria's strength... after all, he was once able to match one of the Yonkou in terms of power (and again, he's my top favorite of the Shichibukai, anyway ). I'm merely stating possibilities here, that's all. I definitely want to see him in action during the upcoming war.....

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Technically, Luffy didn't even defeat Moria. Remember, it was the mast of his ship that crushed him, forced him to expel all of the shadows he consumed, and put him out of commission. Mind you that this was all after he took a nightmare pistol to the face and a nightmare storm, only to get up mere moments later. Moria was more worried about maintaining such a large number of shadows within him rather than fighting Luffy seriously. I still don't think Luffy is strong enough to defeat Moria.

Also, marvelB, I wasn't referring to you concerning Moria not being a help in the war. I never knew that he was your favorite warlord. That's interesting to know. I guess one of the things you really like about him is that his design is very unique and goofy. After all, I do recall you saying that you do tend to favor more the characters that have goofy designs. Don't worry though, for I am sure that he is going to cause some really big damage in the war to come.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Technically, Luffy didn't even defeat Moria. Remember, it was the mast of his ship that crushed him, forced him to expel all of the shadows he consumed, and put him out of commission. Mind you that this was all after he took a nightmare pistol to the face and a nightmare storm, only to get up mere moments later. Moria was more worried about maintaining such a large number of shadows within him rather than fighting Luffy seriously. I still don't think Luffy is strong enough to defeat Moria.

Good to see you again Blackbeard...even if my first words to you in quite awhile are a disagreement .

I feel you are over-emphasizing the importance of the mast expelling the last of Moria's confined shadows. Moria was literally forcing his mouth to stay closed, so as not to expel his confined shadows, well before he was knocked over and the mast fell on top of him. So any extra blow would have forced him to expel his shadows (consequently losing consciousness). Added to that, even if it was the mast that gave the KO blow, it was Luffy who drove him to the point where one extra blow was all that was needed in order to defeat Moria.

As to whether or not Luffy could have beaten a fully functioning Moria (i.e. Moria using his mind rather than when Moria trying to defeat Luffy using brute strength), I am honestly unsure. I can go either way on the issue.

[C.A.]

You know we're totally underestimating what Moria can do in Impel Down.

All he has to do is pull out the shadows of everyone in the open and they would all burn to death instantly from the sun.

[marvelB]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Also, marvelB, I wasn't referring to you concerning Moria not being a help in the war. I never knew that he was your favorite warlord. That's interesting to know. I guess one of the things you really like about him is that his design is very unique and goofy. After all, I do recall you saying that you do tend to favor more the characters that have goofy designs. Don't worry though, for I am sure that he is going to cause some really big damage in the war to come.

His design is one thing, but what I really like about Moria is his character concept: He's a lazy person who fully relies on his subordinates to make him the Pirate King, despite the fact that he's strong enough to climb the summit himself. He's almost the polar opposite of Crocodile, who trusts nobody else but himself, and had long given up the dream of becoming Pirate King by the time he formed Baroque Works. I always enjoy it when Oda gives his characters that kind of depth. This is why I'm really looking forward to learning more about Jinbei, who is willing to give up his Shichibukai title for reasons currently unknown.....

Originally Posted by C.A.

You know we're totally underestimating what Moria can do in Impel Down.

All he has to do is pull out the shadows of everyone in the open and they would all burn to death instantly from the sun.

While that's certainly true, I'm not sure that Moria is fast enough to cut out over a thousand warring pirates' shadows in broad daylight with those big ol' scissors of his. All of the shadows he had absorbed with Shadows Asgard in Thriller Bark were the ones he had already stolen in the course of at least a decade....

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by james0246

Good to see you again Blackbeard...even if my first words to you in quite awhile are a disagreement .

I feel you are over-emphasizing the importance of the mast expelling the last of Moria's confined shadows. Moria was literally forcing his mouth to stay closed, so as not to expel his confined shadows, well before he was knocked over and the mast fell on top of him. So any extra blow would have forced him to expel his shadows (consequently losing consciousness). Added to that, even if it was the mast that gave the KO blow, it was Luffy who drove him to the point where one extra blow was all that was needed in order to defeat Moria.

As to whether or not Luffy could have beaten a fully functioning Moria (i.e. Moria using his mind rather than when Moria trying to defeat Luffy using brute strength), I am honestly unsure. I can go either way on the issue.

Likewise james0246. It's good to be back. What you say is absolutely true on how Moria was literally keeping his mouth closed so as to avoid the expulsion of the shadows he consumed. However, the only reason he got to such a weakened state in the first place is because of the Nightmare power up Luffy was given by the rolling pirates. Had Luffy not had any outside interference in his favor, he would never have been able to damage Moria anywhere close to the extent he did in his Nightmare form, and thus, presumably, Moria would have had much better control over the 1000 shadows he absorbed since he would be in a much more conscious state. Luffy's victory over Moria was completely circumstantial. He was given a ridiculous power up to weaken Moria significantly and the sun was already coming up. The situation did not permit their fight to last long at all, and consequently Moria had to be defeated fairly quickly otherwise some of our heroes would have disintegrated from the sun. Like I said before, Moria got BSed.

[Wai]

I'd like to see Doflamingo in battle. If he really possesses some puppet DF, then he'd pwn his opponents.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

However, the only reason he got to such a weakened state in the first place is because of the Nightmare power up Luffy was given by the rolling pirates.

While this is true, you have to remember that Moria gets the same power-up literally minutes after Luffy loses his Nightmare abilities. So, it seems disingenuous to argue for or against a power-up that they both share, although I fully admit that you could make an argument concerning the potential "dumbing" down of Moria in the last minutes of the fight, specifically resulting in Moria using the power-up when he seemed to have no reason to.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Had Luffy not had any outside interference in his favor, he would never have been able to damage Moria anywhere close to the extent he did in his Nightmare form, and thus, presumably, Moria would have had much better control over the 1000 shadows he absorbed since he would be in a much more conscious state.

I can't help but feel that you are discounting Luffy's abilities a little too much in this fight. Nightmare Luffy was really supposed to be used to defeat Odz (the majority of the blows rained down on Odz and Moria were aimed at Odz, Moria only received one or two of the blows, enough to knock him briefly unconscious, which forced Odz to revert to normal, which let the team easily defeat him). Arguably Luffy sustained equal damage to Moria during the course of Luffy's two battles with Odz (first as Nightmare Luffy, then regular Luffy), then Luffy had to battle Nightmare Moria (who had 10 times the power that Luffy had).

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Luffy's victory over Moria was completely circumstantial.

While I agree that the fight was rushed for dramatic effect, I would still say the odds are about even in a regular fight. Moria's strongest ability is his initial KO punch (by stealing the shadow), and after that is his mind, which as we see when he is playing around with Luffy or the Strawhats, can come up with some great attacks and defenses. I fully admit that Moria should not have attacked Luffy with brute strength, and that, from a story perspective, Moria taking this route immediately spelled his doom (I could make an argument concerning Moria's emotional state at the time, but that is inconclusive and wholly subjective). Ws Moria dumbed down? Probably. But I still say that since Luffy's attacks did work on his body, there is no reason to assume that Luffy could not have come out the winner in a different less-rigged fight.

(P.S. I am really just arguing for the sake of argument...boredom is awful for the soul .)

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Had Luffy not had any outside interference in his favor, he would never have been able to damage Moria anywhere close to the extent he did in his Nightmare form, and thus, presumably, Moria would have had much better control over the 1000 shadows he absorbed since he would be in a much more conscious state.

Those "what if's" can get might tricky... i mean, if you are gonna discount Luffy using Moria's shadows, then we might be able to say the same about Oz... I mean, Oz was the main reason why Moria went undamaged throughout most of the fight; the strawhats had to fight through Oz to get to Moria. Sure Moria uses his power to control Oz, but Moria didn't have him back when he was beaten in the new world and isn't gonna have him in the upcoming fight against whitebeard's crew; just as Luffy won't ever get the nightmare power up again... If Luffy didn't get that nightmare power up, he would have had to face against both Moria and Oz... frankly, considering the amount of power Oz gives, and that fact that the nightmare form brings on heavy exhaustion (the how possibly going unconscious thing), the nightmare power up Luffy got could be seen as "evening out" the fight to cancel out the advantage Moria was getting thanks to Oz

And you could be overestimating Moria's power over his 1000 shadows... consider... before thriller bark, Moria had a normal crew and didn't have hogback; considering how weak a corpse would be without hogback to fix it up first, i doubt Moria made much use of his shadow powers to make zombie warriors... as such the only shadows he could absorb within himself would be those he got as he fought, or ones he might have collected like the risky pirates did... But when it comes to storing shadows, would he really try to store thousands? or just a few dozen or maybe a hundred? Hell Moria may have even allowed his own crew to use shadows as a power up... but all in all, when Moria had to fight his hardest and was beaten in the new world, it would not be hard to imagine that he only had like 100 shadows in storage that he could absorb and fight with... What's the point of all this? he may have never once tried absorbing 1,000 shadows, or anywhere even remotely close to it... He tried to take in all those shadows cause he never had problems before, but he never tried it with even close to this many... What i'm trying to say is that even without the beating he took from Luffy, he might have still been unable to control that many shadows at once; hell it took only one hit for shadows to start escaping, so it isn't all that hard to believe

not to mention, much like Oz, in a normal fight or even one where Moria had some time to prepare, he would not have all those shadows to aid him in a fight

Really, what i'm saying is, if we are gonna deny Luffy the nightmare power, which he normally would not have, why not deny Moria Oz and nearly all his shadows... could Luffy beat Moria if he did not have Oz and no where close to a 1000 shadows? that's a whole nother story right there, and too hard to call

Originally Posted by james0246

Nightmare Luffy was really supposed to be used to defeat Odz (the majority of the blows rained down on Odz and Moria were aimed at Odz, Moria only received one or two of the blows, enough to knock him briefly unconscious, which forced Odz to revert to normal, which let the team easily defeat him).

Actually Moria took quite a few hits... Luffy may have been focusing on beating Oz, but those sotmr punches were aimed at his gut, and that's where Moria was... in the manga you can even see that Moria took several blows; and that's was very likely just a sample of what he felt throughout the whole storm

[Rawrz]

Franky getting attacked by a robodog clearly implies that Franky's gonna get his regular body upgrades.Im not too excited about it yet still I know Oda will surprise me by upgrading him in a great way.

Old man doing that wind trick over nami also shows that Nami may become something monsterously powerful after this especially against large group of enemies.If an old man can create such shockwave from winds by such little stuff, nami can create actual tornados with her clima-tact.

For others theyre pretty predictable yet unknown.Im waiting great things from Usopp, hope it wont be another mindless adventure for him like making some giants friends and saying farewell to them...Maybe some old sniper king living on that happy island...

Or maybe those pink happy cute pure creatures can teach Usopp that its time to use some real guns that even they use when they need to protect theirselves, because sometimes violence is a must be against psychos such as Lucci,Moria that both tried to kill usopp mercilessly at a time...times when Kabuto will look like a toy.He will be useful for crew with this adventure rather than just being the funny wanna-be hero sidekick..Im sure of it!

[LeoThugs]

I just happened to think of the weirdest weirdest possibility. I might have been wrong because I wasn't reading the managa before Enies Lobby.

But they did show Shanks and Whitebeard cross swords. And then what came of that? Did they just laugh it off and sit down to gulp sake. Or did somebody get hurt?

How would it seem if the Moby Dick is in fact being commandeered by Shanks. And its shanks now waging war on the WG, not Whitebeard. Maybe everybody is in for a huge shock.

Please correct me if they ever showed what happened to either Whitebeard or shanks after that clashing of the swords.

[Rawrz]

Originally Posted by LeoThugs

I just happened to think of the weirdest weirdest possibility. I might have been wrong because I wasn't reading the managa before Enies Lobby.

But they did show Shanks and Whitebeard cross swords. And then what came of that? Did they just laugh it off and sit down to gulp sake. Or did somebody get hurt?

How would it seem if the Moby Dick is in fact being commandeered by Shanks. And its shanks now waging war on the WG, not Whitebeard. Maybe everybody is in for a huge shock.

Please correct me if they ever showed what happened to either Whitebeard or shanks after that clashing of the swords.

What happened after that is still unknown.My guess is that some messenger appeared at that moment and told them about Ace getting owned situation.Shanks is not an idiot, but Whitebeard is, Shanks wont go directly into WG trap but in this situation he probly knows that WG will get the upper hand over pirates if Whitebeard dies there...So he may help him hopelessly or try to save Ace himself while Whitebeard's creating a distraction....But it is very unlikely that Shanks will stay in his ship and watch Whitebeard pirates getting slaughtered.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

And you could be overestimating Moria's power over his 1000 shadows...

I'll concede to this point. I do admit that I am only speculating he would have better control of his shadows had he not taken such a beating by Nightmare Luffy. Although, I do think it is fair to say that he at least would've had some better control over 1000 shadows if he remained unharmed.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Really, what i'm saying is, if we are gonna deny Luffy the nightmare power, which he normally would not have, why not deny Moria Oz and nearly all his shadows... could Luffy beat Moria if he did not have Oz and no where close to a 1000 shadows? that's a whole nother story right there, and too hard to call

Because the shadow absorption and Nightmare power up are both a part of Moria's abilities, not Luffy's or anyone else's. Moria has every right to use his shadow devil fruit based on his ingenuity and how he sees fit. How he uses his shadow fruit is his prerogative and we should not deprive him of any of his abilities since he is just utilizing his powers to their fullest capabilities. Having Oz, his whole zombie army, and 1000 shadows under his control is not unfair or advantageous in any way. He is just using his devil fruit like everyone else that has one.

Moria tends to be underrated by a lot of fans, but the fact is that he is an extremely formidable adversary. Oda did have to dumb him down a little for the strawhats to prevail against him. If you think about it, Moria could've completely avoided his beating from Nightmare Luffy if he just used his doppleman to take all of the hits in the cockpit of Oz.

[Phenomenal]

I just have a feeling that Jinbei has a better chance of joining the SH crew than Boa or Ace?

[Talendra]

Originally Posted by Rawrz

Or maybe those pink happy cute pure creatures can teach Usopp that its time to use some real guns that even they use when they need to protect theirselves, because sometimes violence is a must be against psychos such as Lucci,Moria that both tried to kill usopp mercilessly at a time...times when Kabuto will look like a toy.He will be useful for crew with this adventure rather than just being the funny wanna-be hero sidekick..Im sure of it!

I dont think we will ever see Ussop use a real gun. It just does not fit his character, sure, his character might change with the memories of SHP crushing defeat, but stil i would not expect that to lead us to a gun-wielding Ussop.

Also, guns have need to be loaded (which takes time and is not easyly undone to load different ammunition). That might seem insignificant, however, that would be a large problem for Ussops fighting style, which bases mainly on the combination of differents ammunition to achieve his goal. Ussop is not enough about pure fire power, that he (or Oda for that matter, imo at least) would sacrifice the flexibility a slingshot provides.

I dont say there wont be a weapon-based upgrade for Ussop, i really dont think it would be something as ordinary as a gun