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[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

As clearly proven by Mao, Stalin, Lenin, and Hitler.

As with Khomieni, the Ottoman, Guiscard, St Augustine, Hugues de Payens, etc. Pathetic bastards who hid behind their religion to control others.

History has their assholes - and most of them can be found in the Middle Ages. And given how the world is pretty much religiously divided, I would have said "feels like the middle ages" if I had lived from that time till now.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Using your logic of non-belief as a reason for committing atrocities, non-belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster should be our chief concern. Neither Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Osama bin Laden, the Crusaders, the Inquisition etc. etc. believed in His Noodliness and look how many people they killed.

No Ascaloth.

By my logic government is not eloquence, nor is it noble.
Government is force, and like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

No Ascaloth.

By my logic government is not eloquence, nor is it noble.
Government is force, and like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.

As we all are.

The entire human entity always need someone to watch over and group them together because most of us are either mentally retarded, can't make up their minds, or are unable to decide due to emotional attachments.

[GundamFan0083]

Yep, I agree.

[Dhomochevsky]

Hitler was an occult freak. He believed in astrology, fortune telling, runes and all that stupid stuff. He was everything but rational in that aspect. And that is certainly not atheistic.
Don't label rationalism with someone like him. You will need to find another negative example.

[GundamFan0083]

I don't consider rationalism positive or negative.
It is simply a mental tool used to help in understanding.

Unfortunately, Hitler abused that tool as have many leaders throughout history.
I suppose the best thing to label Hitler is what he was, a Nationalist Socialist.

I would imagine that Kaddafi considers what he has been doing to/for his people over the last 42 years to be rational.
I would firmly disagree with him, but I think he believes that his way of ruling is the correct way.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

No actually Hitler hated Christianity.

From Mein Kampf:



From Table Talk:

Spoiler for Munich, 12 April 1922:

I SAY: MY FEELING AS A CHRISTIAN POINTS ME TO MY LORD AND SAVIOUR AS A FIGHTER. IT POINTS ME TO THE MAN WHO ONCE IN LONELINESS, SURROUNDED ONLY BY A FEW FOLLOWERS, RECOGNIZED THESE JEWS FOR WHAT THEY WERE AND SUMMONED MEN TO THE FIGHT AGAINST THEM AND WHO, GOD'S TRUTH! WAS GREATEST NOT AS SUFFERER BUT AS FIGHTER. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and of adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before - the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago - a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people.

http://www.hitler.org/speeches/04-12-22.html

Spoiler for NSDAP Party Program Point 24:

24. We demand freedom for all religious denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence not offend the moral feelings of the German race.

The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.

http://www.hitler.org/writings/programme/

By just these two points alone, I have disproved your assertion that Nazi Germany was an "Atheist-Statist" entity, like you like to keep claiming. Try again.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Spoiler for Munich, 12 April 1922:

I SAY: MY FEELING AS A CHRISTIAN POINTS ME TO MY LORD AND SAVIOUR AS A FIGHTER. IT POINTS ME TO THE MAN WHO ONCE IN LONELINESS, SURROUNDED ONLY BY A FEW FOLLOWERS, RECOGNIZED THESE JEWS FOR WHAT THEY WERE AND SUMMONED MEN TO THE FIGHT AGAINST THEM AND WHO, GOD'S TRUTH! WAS GREATEST NOT AS SUFFERER BUT AS FIGHTER. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and of adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before - the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago - a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people.

http://www.hitler.org/speeches/04-12-22.html

Spoiler for NSDAP Party Program Point 24:

24. We demand freedom for all religious denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence not offend the moral feelings of the German race.

The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.

http://www.hitler.org/writings/programme/

By just these two points alone, I have disproved your assertion that Nazi Germany was an "Atheist-Statist" entity, like you like to keep claiming. Try again.

He is a politician! How are we supposed to believe anything he says outside of his private moments?

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

He is a politician! How are we supposed to believe anything he says outside of his private moments?

Precisely my point. Regardless of what his actual beliefs were, it's stated in black-and-white that Hitler built the Nazi system on a religious basis, invalidating the claim that Nazi Germany was an "atheist-statist" state. All the claims and counter-claims about Hitler's supposed beliefs, has only proven to me that Hitler is a consummate politician who's well aware of religion's capacity to inspire fanaticism, whatever his beliefs may be.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

He is a politician! How are we supposed to believe anything he says outside of his private moments?

Well yes. Strictly by said logic we'd also have to presume that every speech made by a politician must be reflective of their own beliefs and not merely pandering towards the beliefs of the public whose support they're trying to get as appeals to emotion and appeals to personal logic.

Gift of the silver tongue is something many great orators possess (which includes Hitler).

[GreatTeacherKen]

Getting past this whole religion debate. . .

A very moving story of a nine year old girl saving her five year old sister from a truck.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theloo...e-sisters-life

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Spoiler for Munich, 12 April 1922:

I SAY: MY FEELING AS A CHRISTIAN POINTS ME TO MY LORD AND SAVIOUR AS A FIGHTER. IT POINTS ME TO THE MAN WHO ONCE IN LONELINESS, SURROUNDED ONLY BY A FEW FOLLOWERS, RECOGNIZED THESE JEWS FOR WHAT THEY WERE AND SUMMONED MEN TO THE FIGHT AGAINST THEM AND WHO, GOD'S TRUTH! WAS GREATEST NOT AS SUFFERER BUT AS FIGHTER. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and of adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before - the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago - a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people.

http://www.hitler.org/speeches/04-12-22.html

Spoiler for NSDAP Party Program Point 24:

24. We demand freedom for all religious denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence not offend the moral feelings of the German race.

The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.

http://www.hitler.org/writings/programme/

By just these two points alone, I have disproved your assertion that Nazi Germany was an "Atheist-Statist" entity, like you like to keep claiming. Try again.

Facts are not a claim Ascaloth and there's nothing to argue since I'm simply stating the incontrovertable truth.

I guess you must have missed this part of Mein Kampf:

"To whom should propaganda be addressed? … It must be addressed always and exclusively to the masses… The function of propaganda does not lie in the scientific training of the individual, but in calling the masses' attention to certain facts, processes, necessities, etc., whose significance is thus for the first time placed within their field of vision. The whole art consists in doing this so skilfully that everyone will be convinced that the fact is real, the process necessary, the necessity correct, etc. But since propaganda is not and cannot be the necessity in itself … its effect for the most part must be aimed at the emotions and only to a very limited degree at the so-called intellect… it's soundness is to be measured exclusively by its effective result". (Main Kampf, Vol 1, Ch 6 and Ch 12)

No actual theist would "use the lord's name in vain."
Hitler had no problem with using any gods' or goddess' name so long as it gave him power.
He didn't believe in any divine punishment for what he was doing.
He had no fear of hell, or some divine judgement for his actions.
What he did believe in was Wagner's idealistic Germanic destiny.
Wagner was a devout revolutionary socialist of the late 1840s and a great influence on Adolf.
In addition, Neitzsche's philosophy of "The Power of the Will" had profound influence on Hitler's own philosophical idealism.
Even the Neitzsche society acknowledges this.
The entire concept of Neitzsche's Ubermench is the Eugenic culmination of a man (or race of men) who become as "the gods themselves."
That was Hitler's belief, and it IS a form of atheism because it lacks any belief in any supernatural being, wrath of god, or other judgement by a higher non-human power.
The State becomes God through the Ubermench who wield power within it, which is the Nationalist Socialist philosophy in a nutshell.

Ascaloth, you need to understand that there are many forms of atheism.
Not just one.
Just as there are many forms of theism, some good, and some very bad; there are also many forms of atheism, some good, and some very bad.
The world is not as simple as Theist verses Atheist, and I am incapable of thinking in such simpleton terms.

Just as the Theocracy of the Holy Roman Empire brought about the horrors of the inquisition, the Atheistic-Statists (or Authoritarian Atheists if you prefer) of the various Socialist governments of the 20th Century starved millions to death and sent millions more to death camps.

Methinks we've deviated from this threads topic enough.
I'll leave you with that Ascaloth.

__________________________________________________ ___________

Now, back on topic:

Obama is sticking to his "guns."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110323/...us_us_libya_32

I truly hope he means this.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Clearly all governments kill, thus the question of which one is more noble comes down to who kills the least and why.

I don't think you can simplify it to a numbers game. There's no stone-cold reason why a theocracy or an atheist state kill people. While a theocratic state might kill nonbelievers and an atheist state might kill believers, I highly doubt that is the reason why the bulk of deaths occur under those governmental forms. Rather, I'd suggest poor leadership, selfishness, warlike culture, and bad economics are far more relevant factors.

[Ascaloth]

Sigh. Words cannot describe how tempted I am to continue picking apart GundamFan0083's arguments, if not for the Sword of Damocles the mods have hanging over my head.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Sigh. Words cannot describe how tempted I am to continue picking apart GundamFan0083's arguments, if not for the Sword of Damocles the mods have hanging over my head.

Yes, I'm sure I've tempted you to eat of the fruit of knowledge.

But we must resist!!

Anyway, here's a developing story about a fuel fire in Miami:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/03/2...s-out-at.html#

Here's a rather interesting look at China's current economic situation.
Seems like a mixed bag to me:

http://english.caing.com/2011-03-11/100235531.html

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Rather, I'd suggest poor leadership, selfishness, warlike culture, and bad economics are far more relevant factors.

I think that explains why the Russians have been killing people without blinking for the past century or so.

Or probably since the Viking times.

[GundamFan0083]

Correct me if I'm wrong SaintessHeart, but didn't the Russians model their Czarist culture around the Byzantine Empire model?

[MeoTwister5]

Personally I think the warlike state had some influence from the Mongol invasions.

[ganbaru]

British government rolls the dice with tough austerity budget
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1954319/

[Ithekro]

"Germany is determined to show the world how abandoning nuclear energy can be done."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42239367...world_business

I'm not entirely sure if this is viable, or just a scam to get Germans to pay more money. Depends entirely on what they think they can come up with for renewable power sources, and if they also plan to get rid of their rather dirty coal fired power plants. Solar and wind require a huge amount of area to generate the power needed to power Germany, and I'm not all that sure the countruy has the areas needed for it.