Funnels Vs Dragoons

[Dan the Man]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Generally, you should never rely on Wikipedia for any detail on Gundam. UC technologies and Cosmic Era technologies are fundamentally different, so there isn't any particular for their beam technologies to be similar either.

Well, if wikipedia is so unreliable, do you have a better site for Gundam info?

[4Tran]

In English, the best sites for information are www.gundamofficial.com and www.mahq.net. Being the official site, gundamofficial is the more reliable of the two, and it also has both a timeline and a glossary, but it only covers the shows that have been licensed for R1.

Mahq contains the information distilled from the toys and other publications, so it has more details about the mecha. As a bonus, it not only has information from every Gundam work out there, but it also has information on many other shows as well like Macross or VOTOMS.

Finally, there's the animation itself. Occasionally, the official information contradicts what's depicted; in such cases, I would regard what we see on-screen as superseding any published figures.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Finally, there's the animation itself. Occasionally, the official information contradicts what's depicted; in such cases, I would regard what we see on-screen as superseding any published figures.

Unless its something like Destiny Gundam losing power in the middle of a battle, of course. But then again, the Special Editions took care of that.

[Zeta Gundam]

The Beams in Seed are closer to a laser/light source.This spawned from an argument over at Mecha talk which ironically also started about Akatsuki's armor(Which is basically just tons of Micro-mirrors).

It pains me that I can't remember the juicy number details of the argument,but basically Mark Simmons(Who lives in Japan and does most of the translating as well as writing for Mahq)said that the beams of the Universal Centuries,source material is a lot closer to Plasma.

If it ever came down to Akatsuki trying to reflect a shot from the Rx-78's rifle the beam would rip through Akatsuki,because the technology is meant to bend and reflect a light source,but wouldn't hold up as well against an extremely heated shot(Which is more or less the same kind of stuff that stars are made out of).

It would be more helpful to ask over there,but that's the gist of it from what I can remember.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Eh, in the end, it's best just to keep the defenses of an MS from 1 universe IN that universe rather than trying to compare it to how it'd work against weapons from another universe...UC and CE use pretty much different technology, physics, and such so it's nearly impossible to know HOW one would affect the other in any sense. Gundam SEED and SEED Destiny have been more about flashiness and spamming over "realism" like UC which is why a lot of stuff seen in CE is constantly retconned or unknown.

[aeriolewinters]

Uhmmm, I'd still think that the design Philosophy of the Dragoon System is better than that of the Psycommu. As previously said, It'd be a real hypocrisy if you say that controlling the bits/funnels by thought waves is more realistic than having a computer do it in a systematic level..... but come to think of it, if the computer tech we have today was present during the Zeta's run, the Funnels would have something like an autopilot system the would work Like Dragoons.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Zeta Gundam

The Beams in Seed are closer to a laser/light source.This spawned from an argument over at Mecha talk which ironically also started about Akatsuki's armor(Which is basically just tons of Micro-mirrors).

The problem with this interpretation is that Akatsuki's armor doesn't work purely by deflection/reflection. What it can do is absorb the energy from an attack and then project some sort of beam to the firers. I don't believe that this mechanism has ever been adequately explained, but it sure doesn't look like the work of mirrors.

Originally Posted by Zeta Gundam

It pains me that I can't remember the juicy number details of the argument,but basically Mark Simmons(Who lives in Japan and does most of the translating as well as writing for Mahq)said that the beams of the Universal Centuries,source material is a lot closer to Plasma.

While Mark Simmons is certainly a good source for official information (if I recall correctly, he also did much of the writing for gundamofficial.com), you may be reading his explanation wrong. It's quite clear that UC beams compose of projecting neutral particle - and these weapons deliver most of their damage via kinetic energy rather than heat (which is what one would expect of plasma weapons).

Originally Posted by Zeta Gundam

If it ever came down to Akatsuki trying to reflect a shot from the Rx-78's rifle the beam would rip through Akatsuki,because the technology is meant to bend and reflect a light source,but wouldn't hold up as well against an extremely heated shot(Which is more or less the same kind of stuff that stars are made out of).

Without any more information about Akatsuki's armor, it's impossible to say what its limitations are, or whether UC beams would be able to exploit them.

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

Eh, in the end, it's best just to keep the defenses of an MS from 1 universe IN that universe rather than trying to compare it to how it'd work against weapons from another universe...UC and CE use pretty much different technology, physics, and such so it's nearly impossible to know HOW one would affect the other in any sense. Gundam SEED and SEED Destiny have been more about flashiness and spamming over "realism" like UC which is why a lot of stuff seen in CE is constantly retconned or unknown.

It's probably best to limit our speculation about the strengths and weaknesses of technologies that haven't been fully explained. However, I'd be much more hesitant about calling UC technologies more "realistic".

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Uhmmm, I'd still think that the design Philosophy of the Dragoon System is better than that of the Psycommu. As previously said, It'd be a real hypocrisy if you say that controlling the bits/funnels by thought waves is more realistic than having a computer do it in a systematic level..... but come to think of it, if the computer tech we have today was present during the Zeta's run, the Funnels would have something like an autopilot system the would work Like Dragoons.

I don't think "realistic" has much weight in CE: we're talking about a universe which ignores fundamental aspects of fields like genetics, and What It Can And Can Not Do. And has mechs overloaded with weapons, and cunfuses the difference between a nuclear reactor and a nuclear bomb, and a vast number of other things. Calling the Dragoons realistic when they remain just as much a remote weapon in an era of total jamming as funnels is rather silly.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

I don't think "realistic" has much weight in CE: we're talking about a universe which ignores fundamental aspects of fields like genetics, and What It Can And Can Not Do. And has mechs overloaded with weapons, and cunfuses the difference between a nuclear reactor and a nuclear bomb, and a vast number of other things.

Every Gundam show does its share of violating all manners of science, so it doesn't do to be throwing stones in a glass house.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Calling the Dragoons realistic when they remain just as much a remote weapon in an era of total jamming as funnels is rather silly.

aeriolewinters didn't call DRAGOONs realistic per se, he said that their design philosophy is more realistic than that of bits and funnels on a systems basis. If you're trying to refute his points, you should at least address them properly.

[Zeta Gundam]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The problem with this interpretation is that Akatsuki's armor doesn't work purely by deflection/reflection. What it can do is absorb the energy from an attack and then project some sort of beam to the firers. I don't believe that this mechanism has ever been adequately explained, but it sure doesn't look like the work of mirrors.


While Mark Simmons is certainly a good source for official information (if I recall correctly, he also did much of the writing for gundamofficial.com), you may be reading his explanation wrong. It's quite clear that UC beams compose of projecting neutral particle - and these weapons deliver most of their damage via kinetic energy rather than heat (which is what one would expect of plasma weapons).


Without any more information about Akatsuki's armor, it's impossible to say what its limitations are, or whether UC beams would be able to exploit them.


It's probably best to limit our speculation about the strengths and weaknesses of technologies that haven't been fully explained. However, I'd be much more hesitant about calling UC technologies more "realistic".

I didn't say the last quote about the realistic weapons(Let's be honest here robots fighting other robots in space isn't very realistic to begin with)

Also this is from what I remember.I'll ask The Homeless Guy and maybe some of the more notable MAHQ members,but I clearly remember Simmons saying UC Beam technology was made out of Plasma

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Zeta Gundam

I didn't say the last quote about the realistic weapons(Let's be honest here robots fighting other robots in space isn't very realistic to begin with)

Also this is from what I remember.I'll ask The Homeless Guy and maybe some of the more notable MAHQ members,but I clearly remember Simmons saying UC Beam technology was made out of Plasma

There really isn't any need to. The gundamofficial.com site states this very clearly: a beam rifle is just a compact mega particle cannon, and the description for that weapon is:
" The standard beam weapon of the Universal Century era. When positive and negative Minovsky particles are compressed, they fuse into a new subatomic particle called a mega particle. In the process, a portion of their mass is converted into kinetic energy, giving the mega particle a high initial velocity. These fast-moving mega particles can then be focused into a devastating energy beam.

The mega particle cannon is a formidable weapon. Its energy conversion efficiency is more than four times that of a laser, and since the mega particles are electrically neutral, they are far harder to deflect than a conventional charged particle beam."

Heck, Mark Simmons probably wrote that description himself.


And you can consider that quote fixed.

[Dan the Man]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

There really isn't any need to. The gundamofficial.com site states this very clearly: a beam rifle is just a compact mega particle cannon, and the description for that weapon is:
" The standard beam weapon of the Universal Century era. When positive and negative Minovsky particles are compressed, they fuse into a new subatomic particle called a mega particle. In the process, a portion of their mass is converted into kinetic energy, giving the mega particle a high initial velocity. These fast-moving mega particles can then be focused into a devastating energy beam.

The mega particle cannon is a formidable weapon. Its energy conversion efficiency is more than four times that of a laser, and since the mega particles are electrically neutral, they are far harder to deflect than a conventional charged particle beam."

Heck, Mark Simmons probably wrote that description himself.


And you can consider that quote fixed.

While that is how it works, the power of the kinetic energy comes from the fusion of the minovsky particles, which produces a huge amount of energy, which when shot, could very well heat up to levels comparable to plasma. If not plasma, the high speed at which the particles travel will heat up to extremely high temperatures as well, which could very well vaporize anything in it's path.

[4Tran]

Technically, much the same goes for all high-energy weapons, including modern APFSDS and HEAT tank rounds. Besides, it'd work better from a scientific standpoint if the UC beams were composed of the neutral particles as described on gundamofficial. If you want to read up on why plasma weapons are a bad idea, check out this link.

[Dan the Man]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Technically, much the same goes for all high-energy weapons, including modern APFSDS and HEAT tank rounds. Besides, it'd work better from a scientific standpoint if the UC beams were composed of the neutral particles as described on gundamofficial. If you want to read up on why plasma weapons are a bad idea, check out this link.

Interesting article...

Alright, plasma weapons don't work, but that wasn't what I was getting at. I was saying that a mega particle cannon works partially through nuclear fusion, which in turn generates heat and energy. What I was getting at is that the heat of the beam could be comparible to that of plasma, not that it was a plasma weapon itself.

[4Tran]

That was my other point: that any high-energy weapon will do the same thing. Anything that delivers a lot of kinetic energy, or stuff like lasers will impart a great deal of heat on the target.

[Zenemis]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

I don't think "realistic" has much weight in CE...

Stopped a rock with his willpower.

[Zeta Gundam]

Okay so from what I have gathered the Akatsuki's reflection works by catching beam projectiles with a plasma layer, using the suit's sensors to re-aim in back to sender, and releasing.

Theoretically, catching and adding the particles to the plasma is theoretically possible, however sending it back isn't.

Still likely that the plasma can't catch megaparticles, plasma = being mostly charged electrons wouldn't be able to stop the neutral Mega particless, and IIRC, Mega particles are a literal new particle, so there's no electrons in it to respond to the plasma.
---------
Just some info I gathered by asking around.Meh...

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Zeta Gundam

Okay so from what I have gathered the Akatsuki's reflection works by catching beam projectiles with a plasma layer, using the suit's sensors to re-aim in back to sender, and releasing.

Unfortunately, when Akatsuki absorbs an enemy beam, it's effect is nothing like a reflection, so its armor must be operating under a different mechanism. Without knowing what that mechanism is, it's sort of pointless to speculate what weapons it will or will not work against.

By the way, just because Minovsky particles are unknown in both the real world and in other Gundam universes doesn't mean that we won't have an appreciation of how a weapon based on them will work. The gundamofficial.com explanation on this is extremely clear: the Minovsky particles are used to project a beam of neutral particles at a very high velocity. The effects of such a neutral particle beam are well within our ability to understand.

[C.A.]

Reflection that reflects back to the original source is called retroreflection.

An example of retroreflection is the material used in road markers/signs, that reflects light back at you when you headlight hits it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroreflector

Therefore Zeta Gundam's mention of micro mirrors for Akatsuki's armour is plausible.

If beams in CE work along the elecromagnetic spectrum, I see no problem in beams being reflected.

The beam may well be infra-red + visible light + maybe some higher radiation(gamma, x-ray), it would easily follow wave properties. Waves can be reflected.

[4Tran]

When Akatsuki absorbs an enemy attack, there's a split second before it fires a beam back at its assailant. Reflection happens instantaeously, with no time lag, so they would appear to be different principles. Based on how it's portrayed, Akatsuki seems to function more like Gundam X's Satellite Cannon collection antenna.