2010-08-02, 14:20 | Link #15121 | ||
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For example, Maria HAS been shown to have this kind of supreme faith in Beatrice's Golden Land so if we were discussing her, I'd believe it. But Shannon hasn't, nor has anyone else. I think Judoh kind of set the standard for theories now; with that many quotes from the game, there's no doubt about George's characterization. Where are the ones for Shannon? Quote:
As for the original idea, I wanted to say that the idea that someone is manipulating events on the island from the outside, besides violating Knox rules about the culprit not being introduced at the beginning, also violates the idea that there needs to be clues presented. There needs to be something shown from EP1-4 that shows an outside influence. As for the above quote, I'm not against the idea that someone else knew of such plans. After all, if we think Krauss set up the bomb, he couldn't have done it by himself. I don't see any clues to say that he was a demolitions expert or anything. So he must have had some outside help. Especially if the geological event was triggered, the explosives should be placed underground... And at the very least, even if he stumbled upon the bomb instead then he still had the island surveyed. The surveyors must have found it for him... |
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2010-08-02, 14:30 | Link #15122 | ||
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In other words, by this reasoning, all Christians who are considered good at the time of their death do go the heaven when their loved ones believe that they do. And all people who are despised and hated truly do fall into hell, as long as people believe that they do. The Golden Land is just another thing created for people to believe in, with her logic. Quote:
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2010-08-02, 14:38 | Link #15124 |
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Personally, I can't believe that Battler would've reacted the way he did when he reached the truth if the truth was that Shannontrice had killed his family so that they could be happy together in heaven. I could see him being able to forgive her for it eventually, but it doesn't make sense for him to be apologetic in the way that he was.
I think his reaction is very important, especially since Ange brought it up again in Chapter 6. To me, it all but confirms that whoever Beatrice is on the game board, she's not the main culprit. |
2010-08-02, 14:42 | Link #15125 | ||
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I'm also pretty sure that perception not only isn't reality to Beatrice (at least Meta-Beatrice), and in fact I believe that notion is provably false. Beatrice has first principles, and they are not subject to interpretation. Perception changing understanding is clearly important to her presentation, but it does not and cannot form the core of her value system, lest her entire endeavor be an incoherent sham. It's a bit hard for me to elaborate right now, but essentially, consider whether there would really be any point to making Battler remember his sin to a person whose fundamental worldview is that perception constructs truth. There is not. None whatsoever. It would be equally effective, and indeed far more convenient, to simply make Battler believe he had sinned. If we accept that Battler really sinned and that his sin had some real value to it, it can only resonate philosophically with a person who has a non-fluid value system. The very notion of a "sin" is intrinsic to a system of moral ethics. The only way one can really "sin" against an adaptive ethical system is to effectively betray the concept of adaptation itself. An example would be a hedonistic system which says "do whatever brings you pleasure." The only real "sin" there would be doing that which would not bring pleasure even when the option to do something pleasurable was available. If "perception is reality," really the only existent sin is "choose to ignore what you perceive." There is no evidence that Battler did this, and even if he did, if Beatrice believes this she's a hypocrite of the highest order. Quote:
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2010-08-02, 15:03 | Link #15126 | |
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In any case, this is mostly off-topic except that it tangentially touches on this particular theory, and on top of that it may be an emotional issue for some, so I'll drop it. Concerning the actual topic of discussion I agree with Misuzu that, from all we know of Battler's character, it seems unlikely that he would not just forgive but beg for forgiveness himself in the murdering "religious" shannontrice scenario. |
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2010-08-02, 15:09 | Link #15127 | ||
Back off, I'm a scientist
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2010-08-02, 15:18 | Link #15128 | |
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It's the same with the siblings for example. All of them desperately need money but it's a stretch to show that they can commit murder because of it. You can bypass the motive if you can show opportunity however. If person X was the only one with the opportunity to do Y... then their motive doesn't matter in showing that they can be responsible... Putting our own world views into the mystery will just muddle up the theories. At the end of the day, it just matters what Ryukishi thinks. I think he's good enough of a writer to avoid the subject entirely, as it isn't exactly relevant. Especially not in a murder mystery. |
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2010-08-02, 15:37 | Link #15129 | |
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What makes something "true" is a large subject that goes back all the way to the Greek philosopher Plato. And many religions beleive in some kind of concept of truth, but it's usually a misunderstanding or a strict following of the lessons that leads to a motive for crime not a philosophy about truth. If I'm to wonder anything though it'd be where this person learned this stuff. There aren't many indications of where, but I think It'd be fairly easy to learn this from an encyclopedia. I think the theory you might be following is consensus theory If I were to chose rather than a religion I'd call it a cult. Since the idol Beatrice was once a human person.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-08-02 at 16:04. |
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2010-08-02, 16:01 | Link #15130 |
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Anyone can gain knowledge through exposure to Kinzo's extensive library. For his one-winged servants it wouldn't even be all that hard. A broader question would be where George gets his occult knowledge, which is presumably not something he's going to have access to that often on Rokkenjima. So he either has a source, or an outside hobby.
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2010-08-02, 16:12 | Link #15131 |
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I think an occult hobby is more likely with the hints I have. If he has a source it'd be easier to just assume he has one instead of creating a completely new character for explaining that or explaining it with someone similar to Okonogi or a college professor like the Witch Hunt Guy. There's only so many connections you can make with what we have without making it silly.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-08-02 at 16:24. |
2010-08-02, 16:28 | Link #15132 |
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Crazy idea I had, about the bomb.
During WW2 japan also had projects of making Nukes. However none of these projects really got anywhere. Is it possible that a "mostly failed" nuke prototype exists on Rokkenjima and it's what blows up? It would heavily change the landscape, force to shut down the island completely, and the governement woudn't have much choice but to cover it up as an accident. Not saying I think that theory is good, just a thought rather that I can't dismiss yet... I know Eva survived in arc 3, but a really failed incomplete prototype might not completely blow up 2 kilometers away. |
2010-08-02, 16:31 | Link #15133 | |
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It makes fictional sense, quite a lot of it, but there is no indication whatsoever that Japan was ever close to a nuclear device test. The best we can hope for is an experimental reactor that actually transmuted lead shielding into gold by accident.
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2010-08-02, 16:33 | Link #15134 | |
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2010-08-02, 16:58 | Link #15136 | |
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I think it's implied with his similarities to Ange and Maria though, being introverted and bullied , that he might be able to research a lot of this stuff on his own as a hobby because of a similar life experience. Especially since he's the type that gets good grades, which is the difference between him and them. Shannon and Maria might explain why he doesn't know about the magic circles and they could be accomplices in that. But I sort of want to beleive that he's playing dumb and that he could go the extra mile and the be the source for those things in Maria's notebooks in the first place. Since we have little explanation for that other than maybe borrowing some of Kinzo's books. It's still good to have the Shannontrice explanation though because most of the occult knowledge he has seems to be related to Christianity in some ways.
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2010-08-02, 17:22 | Link #15137 | |
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Also, by this theory, piece-Beatrice is actually a lie created by Shkanon. The whole personality was constructed to serve a purpose for her. Shkanon may treasure her like an old, familiar stuffed animal, but she knows that Beatrice doesn't exist in the real world. So, it makes sense for the furniture Beatrice to believe in magic directly, whereas the human only sees it as a human truth (something that individuals accept as the truth).
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2010-08-02 at 17:34. |
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