2011-11-23, 11:52 | Link #25901 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Hello, I've been visiting this thread every once in a while for the last months.
I have quite a bit of questions regarding the series (Haven't finished Ep8, but saw quite a lot of spoilers about, so feel free to say anything regarding it) So, first question is, how did Sakutaro end up in Kawabata's house? Did he find it somewhere around Rokkenjima? Did he find it in one piece? As far as I know, in Tsubasa, there is a story about Sakutaro going through Purgatory, he ends up all dirty and what not (Being this the Fantasy explaniation about how he got in that state, he is found afterwards by Ange) Kuwabata finding it means that Sakutaro was carried by either Maria or Rosa during October 4th. I think that Rosa fixed it in secret and intended to give it back to Maria as a present during the family meeting. I belive that Rosa fixed it because, when Ange finds it in 1998, she gives it back to Maria in the Meta-World. I don't think that Maria (At least in Ange's mind) would be that happy to recieve Sakutaro if it was still all torn up (As in, how Rosa left it after going all batshit insane in EP4) The above is just a small theory that (If correct) applies to Rokkenjima Prime. Not a huge hint about the biggest mystery in the series, but at least it would reveal a bit of the real nature of Rosa. |
2011-11-23, 12:05 | Link #25902 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Yeah, I personally think that Rosa made some new Sakutaro's for Maria to give to her in Prime, forgot them and left them in the boat. Ultimately it really doesnt matter much unless things would have been different if Maria had actually gotten them in Prime. At least with this interpretation we can believe that Rosa regretted her decision.
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2011-11-23, 12:59 | Link #25903 | |||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Which is why I proposed the idea a while ago that Rosa somehow didn't know that Shannon (or Kanon) was the mastermind. Actually, there's that Rosa ending in the new Ougon Musou Kyoku game which kind of supports this theory, because, assuming the OMK ending was based off of EP2, if Rosa knew Shannon was Beatrice then she wouldn't be looking for her after killing Battler; she'd know Beatrice was dead. Quote:
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2011-11-23, 13:42 | Link #25904 | |||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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You'd need to think that he still thought everything is fake after seeing the real corpses of Nanjo, Kumasawa, George, Hideyoshi and Yasu herself. In particular I'd think he'd check that Nanjo and Kumasawa are in place before going to tell Rosa that he found them, but they had to be already dead at that time, it would be very difficult for Yasu to kill them in the short time span where Genji went to tell Rosa and then quickly move to Natsuhi's room and prepare her own death. However if they were already dead when Genji checked Kumasawa and Nanjo, it's quite hard to believe he didn't talk them or try to talk to them. Lastly if he found out people died for real only at that point I'd think even him couldn't maintain his cool, especially after seeing Yasu dead as well. EDIT: Anyway, what about this? The whole lot of Genji, Kumasawa, Nanjo, Gohda and George are waiting for the next instructions. Yasu tells Genji to remain inside the servant room, in case Rosa or Battler tries to contanct them, one must be there and stall them. Then she tells George and Gohda to go to Natsuhi's room and prepare the scene for the next closed room scenario (they had to mess it up right?) in the meantime she'll help Nanjo and Kumasawa with their makeup so that their death will be realistic. After she is alone with Nanjo and Kumasawa at the right place, she gives them the most realistical makeup ever. then she goes to Natsuhi's room where George and Gohda have made a mess out of Natsuhi's room as per plan. Yasu tells them "good job" and then "rewards" them for their efforts. At that point she makes a call to Genji she tells him "all is set, go to Rosa and bring her to where Kumasawa and Nanjo are". Genji being a robot obeys blindly to the order without checking Nanjo and Kumasawa first. In the meantime Yasu closes the door and then kills herself with the method described by Ryuukishi. How about that? Quote:
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2011-11-23 at 14:05. |
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2011-11-23, 14:11 | Link #25905 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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That person was not the hero, though. Yasu/Beatrice gets treated extremely positively, hence the disconnect, and if she's covering up someone else's crime, she allows that person to "get away with it." It's fine to sympathize with her, but let's not forget that if she really is the R-Prime culprit as Ryukishi will-he-or-won't-he hints at, she's the villain.
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2011-11-23, 14:25 | Link #25906 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Coercion or collusion? Take your pic really. Same thing applies to Rosa lying about Kinzo and the door. There's always a possibility that they where wholly innocent though, and I'd prefer if this was the case. I think that the blame should fall on the same shoulders for each of the story.
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2011-11-23, 14:27 | Link #25907 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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There is a better example in Higurashi in the protagonist of Meakashi.
Note that ryuukishi isn't going as far as saying "she did the right thing", he's just saying the situation caused her to do terrible things, but "if you analyse the situation I think you can understand her reasons and at least sympathize with her". He did it again in Tsumihoroboshi with another character, where you can see the infamous scene of "We need to help her hide the corpses! That's what friends are for!" And he did it again in Ookamikakushi. Quote:
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2011-11-23, 14:29 | Link #25908 | ||
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Spoiler for Ryukishi Interview:
By the way, someone also suggested that the gun could be a service revolver or pistol from Kinzo's WW2 days. It's possible he kept the pistol somehow as a momento. I don't have enough research to say what was used; I just picked through a list of all possible WW2 pistols. But there is the Type 26 revolver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_26_9_mm_Pistol) or... maybe... a Nambu Type A or Type 14 with a cartridge of 8 bullets. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nambu_pistol) I'm thinking maybe 8 because... one for each stake. That's right... "I got a bullet with a name on it... just for you." 8) I'm sorry.. I just suddenly imagined Shannon with a crazy face doing the Clint Eastwood line... Quote:
About Genji... I was thinking that maybe as a servant himself, he didn't really oppose his master(s) directly even if there's no doubt what they did were crimes. For example, he probably didn't challenge and obstruct Kinzo even though he raped his own daughter. Maybe he kinda advised him not to do so, but it was Kinzo's ultimate decision as the 'master'. Only when the opportunity to arose to save Beatrice-3 without Kinzo's knowledge did he take it. So maybe he takes the same attitude with Yasu. Can't stop her directly, but maybe there were some minor things he did to oppose it in other ways. Or rather, Yasu estimates that Genji would behave in this fashion or something. I'm still of the opinion that, although I think the siblings went trigger happy, I think Yasu didn't really do anything but turn on the bomb... |
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2011-11-23, 14:42 | Link #25909 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Is this an argument for or against Murder Game Theory?
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That's really a very neat scenario, although it's still a bit of a tangent. Originally we were discussing the meaning of the scene where Genji knifed the golden butterfly; and speculation came up that it could mean Genji was actually innocent and that the scene indicated the point when he realized Yasu's murder game wasn't just a game. EDIT: Quote:
Turn on the bomb to hide the crimes after they were committed, or to actually kill people? Last edited by Wanderer; 2011-11-23 at 14:59. |
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2011-11-23, 15:56 | Link #25910 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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For.
The chances that he is opposing Yasu are so slim that I'd rather try to find a different interpretation. Maybe it just means that he was immune to the illusion of the witch because he knew the truth.
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2011-11-23, 16:58 | Link #25911 |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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That would suppose that Hideyoshi would know (or at least believe) that the other 5 were either fake corpses or playing dead. If they were fake corpses, then there's no good reason why there wouldn't be a Shannon fake too (it's a good reason to think that fake corpses were never utilized). If the 5 others were playing dead, then... well it explains why Shannon's corpse wasn't there. It's pretty difficult to suppose the second twilight of episode 1 was faked, though.
And man, I know it's been said before, but ShKanon is really inconvenient for the killer. More than immune to it, he was part of it. That's why I find the scene so perplexing. |
2011-11-23, 17:08 | Link #25912 | ||
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Join Date: Nov 2011
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On another note, is there any argument at all to claim that Yasu isn't a man? |
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2011-11-23, 19:10 | Link #25913 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Personally I tend to think that Yasu's sex is male, but there are many who disagree. I have two main reasons. One is the "Man From 19 Years Ago". The other is that I find the idea that "Yasu was born male, was sexually mutilated by the fall, and as a result was raised female" to be the most likely explanation for her mixed gender identity. But there's really nothing conclusive either way. Quote:
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2011-11-23, 21:05 | Link #25914 | ||||
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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Hideyoshi would go along with real corpses because he thinks they'r fake, because Nanjo's a dick because money. Quote:
I think the knife throw was, as others have theorized, to signify that he knew what was really going on, or that, and he kind of disagreed / resented with Yasu's course. Quote:
Indeed - which is why Lion's overwhelmingly feminine voice was kind of a surprise. I still say Genji was homolust for Kinzo, has absurd amounts of sympathy for awkwardly gendered incest baby that's the child of the man he loves ?! |
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2011-11-23, 21:32 | Link #25915 | ||
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Join Date: May 2007
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The main idea I'm thinking is, I know how people would fantasize about challenging their greatest hang-up (i.e. Battler) in one big show down, or one big prank. Or go out with the perfect plan. But I can see that when it comes to real execution, she, or anyone else really would hesitate. A series of successive murders is difficult, especially if she has to do it by hand. But flip the switch and just let the end come? If she was severely depressed and convinced she'd just evaporate from the energy... then, that's easy. And maybe more appealing than shooting yourself in the head too. Quote:
But, having so many must really mean he was mass produced at one point or another. That puts doubt on what we thought, that there was only one in the whole world. The original Sakutarou could've been unique in that it was the only hand made version, still. |
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2011-11-23, 22:21 | Link #25916 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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But if Yasu did flip the switch then somehow Eva found out, and I'm not sure how that would happen without Yasu telling her. Plus there had to be some kind of individual killings going on, because Eva would not leave George and Hideyoshi behind unless she knew they were dead. Also, the bomb had an off switch. Since Eva knew about the bomb (and presumably the off switch), then you would think it would be easier for her to turn it off rather than flee all the way across the island. Basically, I'm saying that the most sensible explanation for the explosion would be that it was for the purpose of covering the incident up. Maybe some people were killed by it, but at least George and Hideyoshi must have been already dead. |
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2011-11-23, 22:52 | Link #25917 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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If you can accept that there's a fake murder scenario it is almost inevitable to accept that they know who Yasu is, else they'd hardly follow her plan. At that point would there be any reason not to tell them about Kanon? He's part of the plan, anyone knowing about the plan would know about Kanon (and therefore shkanon) too.
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2011-11-23, 23:09 | Link #25918 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
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On the other hand... It's always bothered me how all of the clues for the existence of the bomb come from outside the game boards. Maybe there is no bomb in the fictions, and we're basically being confused by future knowledge of the incident being reflected back onto them in fantasy scenes?
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2011-11-23, 23:30 | Link #25919 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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