2012-01-12, 22:22 | Link #27021 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Well I really don't think you're getting at all what I'm saying then.
It's things like arc 4 being seemingly more aimed at us then at Battler or whoever else, as well as "Land" being the planned arc 3 that was dropped ending up being a "lost message bottle" that makes me unable to fully separate Ryuukishi from the story. To me the overall story we are supposed to figure out is basically why did Yasu write these stories/what messages did she want to send Battler, and why could she still be satisfied with an outsider like Will solving it (the theme of an outsider solving a riddle has been there since arc 1, with the epitaph, and I think outsiders mostly refers to us real readers). Different things lower the value of Umineko to different people, it seems. To me that'd be the idea that everyone died, possibly murdered by Yasu, and then she wrote stories about it. It's not as much a matter of screwing up the morals of Umineko as much as me simply not getting them at all anymore. Chiru just stops making any sense to me. Edit: Just to say, what if we had been shown an arc 4 future that basically had no relevance to anything written in the previous arcs. Could Ryuukishi have done that? What purpose to the overall story would such a future play? Who showed us that future? Yasu did? If she did, how can she show anything to us? Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-01-12 at 22:32. |
2012-01-12, 22:35 | Link #27022 | |
The True Culprit
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2012-01-13, 00:36 | Link #27023 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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RK07 is being pretty cryptic plus there is the issue of translation. I think it's hard to tell exactly what he means here, or even if what he says is outright "truth" or just something he wants us to think about. |
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2012-01-13, 01:29 | Link #27024 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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For people thinking that Yasu couldn't guess that the storm would happen, here's some lines from EP1:
Rudolf: "A typhoon again? ...I guess it's unavoidable, with the family conference being held in October." Eva: "I just suggested that you might want to propose it [moving the conference to August] to them, since you said you hate typhoons so much." Sounds like it's happened before, repeatedly.
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Last edited by LyricalAura; 2012-01-13 at 01:46. |
2012-01-13, 02:32 | Link #27025 |
Welcome to primetime!
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: St. Louis
Age: 34
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Okay, so thanks to a few random unmarked spoilers I found on the internet (thanks, Encyclopedia Dramatica), I wanna know a few things.
Did Future/Teen Ange Spoiler for "Episode 8 Spoiler":
And on Beatrice Spoiler for "More Episode 8 Spoilers":
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2012-01-13, 02:39 | Link #27026 | ||
The True Culprit
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There was Beatrice 1, the italian, who had a daughter with Kinzo, Beatrice 2. This was the one Kinzo raped and had another child with.
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2012-01-13, 05:12 | Link #27027 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Even what it should have been was already way preconceived by you, it's like you had a specific guidebook on the morals and everything else about Umineko and when it didn't deliver you started to attack it as bad and saying that Ryuukishi didn't do things right. Beside, the idea that 100% of Umineko is a standard mystery is a preconceived point of argument in itself. What I was trying to point out that you completely missed is that claiming a culprit could predict all of these things and have everything going so perfectly according to plan isn't any less crazy then predicting a storm. As LyricalAura pointed out, such a thing seemed more common then not. Another such thing that seems more common then not is that Ange gets sick and cannot come. From Yasu's pov, if she wrote them before the accidents/independantly on an accident occuring or not, she'd take the most realistic guess at to what would happen. 1) She guessed there would probably be a storm. 2) She guessed Ange would probably be sick. 3) She guessed a 900 tons bomb would probably ensure everyone's death. She was right about 2 of it, and wrong about the (imo) one that seems harder to swallow to be wrong about. Prime doesn't have to occur at all and thus none of this has to be verifiable to still be the most logical guess to make when writing the stories. I am trying to fight a preconception that most of you seem to have, so whatever. In the end what baffles me the most tho it that so many people seemingly never noticed that "things of incredibly low probabilities occurring nonetheless" (and especially that Yasu referred to October 4/5 that way in arc 7) is a constant and major theme of the serie. Or alternatively doesn't make anything out of it/doesn't reason it out because it wouldn't be very "realistic" to think about. Quote:
Also, well, this sounds like the kind of arguments of intelligent design. Denying all possible coincidence and making them all part of a master plan. Obviously reality and fiction follows very different rules tho, so I think that's fine, however only as long as you accept that even prime is a fiction. Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-01-13 at 05:23. |
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2012-01-13, 06:10 | Link #27028 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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And just to remind you, things that look like "magic" but are actually tricks are what Beatrice does. |
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2012-01-13, 09:35 | Link #27029 | |||||
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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"Things of low probability happening all the same" is a conceit of mystery fiction. We know that many things we've seen are specifically crafted mystery fictions, and we accept the improbabilities there. To then turn around and say we must accept all other improbabilities because they are equivalent is intellectually lazy and nonsensical. We have been presented with evidence that the world of the author, whatever that may be, does not behave identically to the world he or she has created. Given this, we must question the coincidences which still seem to be appearing. If the world after - whether itself a fiction or not - appears to express incongruous traits that would be more suited to a genre fiction, yet on the whole does not behave like the genre those traits come from, it's entirely reasonable to speculate as to why that is likely to be. "Because it's also fiction and it's all the same" is a sledgehammer erasure of (and denial of) any distinctions between the different fictional layers. And we know those differences exist; if nothing else, we know the Meta-World is not a layer of equivalent fictional genre to the other layers. It is pure conceptual fantasy, whatever its origin or meaning. Coincidences in the Meta-World would be treated differently from coincidences in the fictional worlds, and both would be treated differently from coincidences in Ange's world or some theoretical R-Prime world. That's the only rational way to examine them, unless and until such time as it can be demonstrably shown that World X and World Y are genre-equivalent. That is a burden you have repeatedly failed to meet. Bear in mind we may be permitted to accept different coincidences in different genres. Ange's world may be genre fiction, for example, but it may not be the same genre. What is an acceptable coincidence in that setting may be different from what is acceptable in others, and looking at those contrasts may reveal things that are unacceptable coincidences overall. I think it's an avenue you should explore. Quote:
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2012-01-14, 07:40 | Link #27030 |
twuth it EASY.
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Ok, working on an AMV and getting sidetracked, in the 2nd arc
Spoiler for my theory:
but who was the accomplice? They couldn't have done it by themselves, and I know Maria knows whats up, because shes a bit more batshit than usual in this one, but I doubt Maria could do anything to help |
2012-01-14, 10:19 | Link #27031 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2012-01-14 at 10:30. |
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2012-01-14, 18:43 | Link #27032 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
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I was reading the released chapters of the ep5 manga and got reminded about the issue of Shannon and Kanon both appearing at the same time, even when Erika is present. Has there been any satisfying theories of how this is possible? The only one I could think of is the unreliable-narrator thing, but that woudn't explain why Erika did not notice if one of them was missing...
But then again.... episode 5 is very odd in a lot of ways with the murder/murder-game still occuring even after the epitaph is solved (the last part even acknowledged by Beatrice through the letter)... |
2012-01-14, 19:41 | Link #27034 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Not everyone finds this whole idea sensible, however. |
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2012-01-14, 20:43 | Link #27036 | ||
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Join Date: Jan 2012
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Both Shannon and Kanon are (suppostly) present during the "the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island" scene. According to the VN's narrator (Battler in that scene) Shannon is standing together with Kumazawa behind Erika while Kannon is being unsociable. I guess that one could get around this scene with a combination of the unreliable-narrator theory and the "Kanon is standing behind Gohda"-theory you mentioned... or just say that Erika was not aware of that red truth and therefore did not care about not seeing Kanon (or Shannon) in that room at the time. And the scene outside Kinzo's study is quite more vague in the VN than the manga regarding the two of them (Kanon spoke in that scene but I do not remember if Shannon did anything...). Everyone who is suppostly still "alive" at this point (beside Kinzo) is there, and since Erika is looking for a suspect it seems odd for her to not notice if someone wasn't present. How everyone else could miss it is also odd, but I guess everyone else on the island is already in on the ShKanon thing by now... And I have to ask.... "Kanon is standing behind Gohda" is the least stupid answer? What more kinds of answers exist then? Quote:
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2012-01-14, 21:24 | Link #27038 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Another thought... As I was thinking about this issue and looking a bit at earlier conversations you guys had I started to wonder if there might be two kinds of answers to this... You guys have been discussing about Yasu only having a confirmed meta-motive while trying to figure out a "real" motive for the murderers (if we assume she did kill anyone). Could Erika not notice the ShKanon-thing be something similar?
If we go only with a meta-only-motive one could guess she might not have noticed it because she was going to frame Natsuhi anyway. So unless Shannon or Kanon was of any importance to the Natsuhi-culprit theory Erika would not pay them any attension (Kind of like some people do/did when looking for ways to "prove" their own theories while igoring things/hints that did not fit in with it). And even if she later noticed something seemed odd about them she was to pridefull to change her Natsuhi-culprit theory so she just ignored any sign of ShKanon. If we go by a non-meta motive... I'm to tired to think about a proper one right now so I'll think some more about it tomorrow... when I'm not falling asleep on the keybord... |
2012-01-14, 21:58 | Link #27039 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
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I agree that there is no great answer, but it's not a great problem either. Erika had already decided her theory by that point so maybe she just didn't care. After all servants in the mystery genre are usually very trivial characters. Like furniture.
If at some point she couldn't locate Shannon or Kanon and started suspecting them, I'm sure LD could clear them with clever use of the red...
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2012-01-14, 22:16 | Link #27040 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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I'm kinda alone on it, but I haven't been dissuaded that "In EP5, and possibly EP5 alone, Lambda just gave Kanon his own body, for either shiggles on Lambda's part, or a thought experiment on Ryukishi's / Tohya's / Featherine's / whomever's part. It explains the 'lack of love' in EP5, allows Erika's Detective Authority to still actually work like we're told, and makes EP6 Genius Battler more entertainingly insidious because he would've known Erika had a false impression of the true number of physical bodies involved in his game."
To be clear, the problem I have with "Kanon behind Godha" is that it makes Erika unforgivably stupid and out of character. And the problem I have with "she already decided to blame Natsuhi", is that if she'd already noticed a discrepancy in the appearance of Shannon or Kanon's characters, she almost certainly would've mentioned in while trying to solve the EP6 Guest Room, the only puzzle in the entire series that actually necessitates a Shkanon solution. ...of course, at this point we've discussed it so many times, that sometimes I'll just concede to "Kanon was behind Godha"'s sentiment because someone, was it Aura, suggested that Kanon was behind Erika the whole time giving her bunny ears as everyone else in the parlor tried to stifle their laughter. And that's just freakin' hilarious. Last edited by Kealym; 2012-01-14 at 22:18. Reason: forgot |
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