(L+CR) Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon Crystal [Anticipation]

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by xrick

Is there any Twitter account where we could try to pose our thoughts about this series or even pose questions?
Personally, I'd love to go complain about them not trying to modernize the original series' art-style (a great mix of shoujo & shounen art-style) or even go with Takeuchi-sensei's modern art-style, which seem to denote much better the girls' real age (they're 14 in the Dark Kingdom arc!). Unfortunately, I know full well that trying to know more about the content of the series is futile, so that's be my only reason to try to contact those guys through Twitter...

What good would complaining do? The series is coming out this summer. It's well on its way and a good deal of it has already been completed. Even if, god forbid, Toei listened to what a bunch of foreign non-paying nerds had to say on the internet, they couldn't change anything since the product's design is already decided.

[RDNexus]

I know it's futile, just saying...

[Triple_R]

@Tempester

Who says that all of us foreigners will be "non-paying"? If any new anime is likely to spur foreign buying, Sailor Moon 2014 is it. My sisters were huge Sailor Moon fans, and they're not even anime fans in general. They bought (and received as Christmas gifts from relatives/friends) a fair bit of Sailor Moon merchandise back in the 90s.

Also, I very much doubt that all of the new Sailor Moon (2014) episodes have already been produced, and are right now, as of this writing, ready to roll. Enough fandom backlash could conceivably result in them tweaking the character designs a bit for mid-point and later episodes which likely have yet to be produced. Really, the leg issues that some of us are commenting on could be corrected (for those of us who dislike them) by widening those legs a little bit. It would not require a radical redesign.

This actually is one case where...

1) I could see very precise/pin-pointed fandom feedback having some desired effect.

2) I think foreign fans have every right to speak their opinion on this to the creators of this, and expect to be heard. Sailor Moon was very mainstream where I live (Atlantic Canada). This is part of our 90s pop culture nostalgia as well, not just Japan's.


Normally I could understand your view on foreigners complaining directly to anime-makers, but not this time.

[mangamuscle]

I doubt that ATM there is any finished sequence (let alone episode) a few days after they have just finished the character designs, otherwise they would have already shown us. To me it would make sense that they started animating the opening/ending credits and then the transformation sequences since they will reuse them over and over. Also, if they are using human computer models to speed up/lower costs then it would be even easier to make said changes, you change the model and it can automatically affect all the wireframe scenes where it is used to draw the characters. Also, even if a change in character designs would affect the release date, since they are not broadcasting it in TV it would mean nothing if they miss a deadline by a few hours (or even days), they are already expecting people to wait two full weeks, waiting a few more days would be nothing.

[Faerie]

I've already paid for stuff via the new merchandise, who is saying I won't be paying for anything else? ;( bit of an antiquated argument, that.

It's more like they wouldn't (or couldn't, since it's already May- I don't know their schedule) listen regardless of who asked, it's not how these things work (I can't see the home fan base even "officially" complaining in the first place- that whole petitioning and complaining to the source when something in media doesn't go your way is very much a western thing, as I understand) ...
That said, this is a bit of an unusual case in the first place, given it's planned worldwide distribution... does anyone know what the opinion on this is elsewhere? Did Japan like the design?
Or did the internet in general?

Thing is, this is 2014... Customer expectations are constantly rising. It's no longer fair to say hey, we only care about the home market and we do what we want, if you're specifically targeting a global market. And the main complaints are so easily fixed, a savvy company targeting today's international and demanding market, who cared about maximising profit would've released designs for such a well-known reboot well enough in advance to gauge the response and make alterations, if there was backlash.
But this is Toei and they did not.

All it needs is slightly less size zero proportions and the saturation adjusted and people wouldn't complain. As others have said, it would not be a big deal. That said, this might actually turn out to be the case in the actual animated version. Designs can sometimes give a misleading impression- Clamp's designs don't look as they do on paper in Code Geass either.

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Who says that all of us foreigners will be "non-paying"? If any new anime is likely to spur foreign buying, Sailor Moon 2014 is it. My sisters were huge Sailor Moon fans, and they're not even anime fans in general. They bought (and received as Christmas gifts from relatives/friends) a fair bit of Sailor Moon merchandise back in the 90s.

Okay, I take that back. A rather insensitive comment that was.

But doesn't most of that money go to third-party foreign companies that have already paid for licenses? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the price of licenses is a blip on the radar compared to revenue from domestic BD and merchandise sales. Of course there are foreigners who import merchandise, but the vast majority do not.

I doubt some skinny legs would turn off licensors anyway. Just the fact that an anime remake of Sailer Moon is coming out is making them salivate over their business suits as they imagine the money. The manga is selling like hotcakes in North America after all.

If Japanese people start boycotting it because it looks ugly, though, that might be a different story.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Also, I very much doubt that all of the new Sailor Moon (2014) episodes have already been produced, and are right now, as of this writing, ready to roll. Enough fandom backlash could conceivably result in them tweaking the character designs a bit for mid-point and later episodes which likely have yet to be produced. Really, the leg issues that some of us are commenting on could be corrected (for those of us who dislike them) by widening those legs a little bit. It would not require a radical redesign.

Okay, I agree. I don't know if Toei would consider it a compromise on overall consistency though.

There are also possible BD fixes for the early part of the show. It would be funny for animators to spend to the redrawing every other keyframe just to fatten thighs for the BD release though.

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

That said, this might actually turn out to be the case in the actual animated version. Designs can sometimes give a misleading impression- Clamp's designs don't look as they do on paper in Code Geass either.

Of course. All this discussion could be for naught if the actual animated product looks better.

I remember how some concept art for Hyouka showed the characters having tiny diminutive legs not unlike those of the K-ON characters. The characters in the actual anime were better proportioned.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

*snip for space* Also, even if a change in character designs would affect the release date, since they are not broadcasting it in TV it would mean nothing if they miss a deadline by a few hours (or even days), they are already expecting people to wait two full weeks, waiting a few more days would be nothing.

Good points. What you wrote does make sense to me.

Originally Posted by Tempester

Okay, I take that back. A rather insensitive comment that was.

To be fair, I know where you're coming from. It just doesn't apply to something on the scale of Sailor Moon.

But doesn't most of that money go to third-party foreign companies that have already paid for licenses? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the price of licenses is a blip on the radar compared to revenue from domestic BD and merchandise sales. Of course there are foreigners who import merchandise, but the vast majority do not.

I doubt this reboot will be as big as the original, but if it's reasonably successful, it could make a lot of merchandise dollars off of foreign fans. They could make a lot of money off of nostalgic fans in their 20s and 30s who are willing to pay for more merchandise that brings them back to cherished childhood and teenage memories.

If Japanese people start boycotting it because it looks ugly, though, that might be a different story.

You likely won't see an organized boycott, barring a seiyu doing something "controversial". But a widespread quiet rejection of something can and does happen sometimes in the anime world. One could argue that we saw this with the Rozen Madien reboot. And it's interesting how much overlap I'm seeing between comments on this project and comments on the Rozen Maiden reboot - Some fans thinking it strays too much from what they liked about the original anime, other fans liking it for being extra-faithful to the manga source material.

It is possible to go too far in pleasing one part of your fandom, and hence not far enough in pleasing another part of your fandom.


You and SkullFaerie are right though that how this looks in animation is the most important thing. So maybe I'll change my take on things when an animated trailer comes out. We'll see.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Tempester

I doubt some skinny legs would turn off licensors anyway. Just the fact that an anime remake of Sailer Moon is coming out is making them salivate over their business suits as they imagine the money. The manga is selling like hotcakes in North America after all.

I remember that when Dragonball Kai was broadcast, it actually hurt merchandise sales of the franchise, it was a backlash of all the people that disliked the new edition, so you can't rule out that this reboot might hurt sales, do not make the same error of the girl that was taking the milk to sale in the market.

There are also possible BD fixes for the early part of the show. It would be funny for animators to spend to the redrawing every other keyframe just to fatten thighs for the BD release though.

1) Yeah, the animators would be really happy *insert psychotic smile*
2) It is not fat, they would be adding muscle mass! All bow to the futomomo!

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Tempester

There are also possible BD fixes for the early part of the show. It would be funny for animators to spend to the redrawing every other keyframe just to fatten thighs for the BD release though.

What do you think this is, SHAFT?

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, below is basically what Sailor Moon looked like in the 90s.

Spoiler for 90s Sailor Moon:

In my view, that's significantly better than the new designs we're now seeing for the 2014 anime.

Now, I realized some things had to change just due to how anime as a whole has changed its character design and visual styles since the mid-90s, of course. But I don't see why legs would have to be one of those things, as there's plenty of modern anime with average-sized legs.

This just strikes me as a strange creative decision when it comes to character designs.

It's not a deal-breaker for me, but it is disappointing to me.

I'm not sure I'd call that representative of the old anime as a whole.

The quality of animation increased significantly, in my opinion, from the first season to Stars (which is to be expected).

That looks of higher quality to me than any anime episode, even in Stars. I know you're focusing mostly on the designs themselves, but I think perceived quality plays a large role in whether we say a design is good or bad.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

That looks of higher quality to me than any anime episode, even in Stars. I know you're focusing mostly on the designs themselves, but I think perceived quality plays a large role in whether we say a design is good or bad.

They're a little bit "cleaner" than normal there, sure. Mainly because that's a still image, rather than a screenshot of animation in motion.

But that's what we're comparing them against - still promotional images (for the 2014 Sailor Moon), not screenshots of something in motion.

For that reason, the comparison seems reasonably fair to me. I honestly think it would be less fair to take a screenshot of a 90s anime episode, given how much animation has improved over the past 20 years.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And it's interesting how much overlap I'm seeing between comments on this project and comments on the Rozen Maiden reboot - Some fans thinking it strays too much from what they liked about the original anime, other fans liking it for being extra-faithful to the manga source material.

Except it wasn't.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Tempester

Okay, I take that back. A rather insensitive comment that was.

But doesn't most of that money go to third-party foreign companies that have already paid for licenses? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the price of licenses is a blip on the radar compared to revenue from domestic BD and merchandise sales. Of course there are foreigners who import merchandise, but the vast majority do not.

Wakanim claims that nowadays, international simulcasts alone fund up to 60% of an anime series. Assuming this is true (they gave no source, I'm skeptical the number is that high), the impact foreigners can have on anime shouldn't be underestimated. We might matter more than we think.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, below is basically what Sailor Moon looked like in the 90s.

Spoiler for 90s Sailor Moon:

In my view, that's significantly better than the new designs we're now seeing for the 2014 anime.

Now, I realized some things had to change just due to how anime as a whole has changed its character design and visual styles since the mid-90s, of course. But I don't see why legs would have to be one of those things, as there's plenty of modern anime with average-sized legs.

This just strikes me as a strange creative decision when it comes to character designs.

It's not a deal-breaker for me, but it is disappointing to me.

Correction that was Sailor Moon's animation style for first couple of seasons, the animation style changed over the course of the series.

For comparison this is what Sailor Moon Stars and the manga looked like

Spoiler for for size:

Sailor Stars


and the manga

So yeah the new designs aren't that far off from what Sailor Moon manga looks like and somewhat resembles a more modern animation style for Sailor Stars.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

So yeah the new designs aren't that far off from what Sailor Moon manga looks like and somewhat resembles a more modern animation style for Sailor Stars.

I would prefer any day the character designs of Sailor Stars over those shown for Crystals, once those legs get animated they will look creepy as hell.

[PreSage]

Speaking of old school, I remember when they used to have the anime version of a facepalm by falling suddenly on the ground, face first, and sometimes have the character still lie down there in a very awkward/almost broken position, twitching like a dying animal (sorry, can't think of a better metaphor). I don't recall seeing that anymore, at least not in the anime I've watched lately. Didn't notice the change until I started to think about SM.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Correction that was Sailor Moon's animation style for first couple of seasons,

There's mostly minimal differences between the Sailor Stars anime character designs and what I put up (the exception being Sailor Moon's outfit changes and weaponry/power changes and neither of those are likely to be factors in this new 2014 anime), which is why I never saw the need to get into it. I mean, these are mostly just mild touch-ups that almost any really long-running show will accumulate over time. And, in my opinion, the Sailor Stars anime character designs is a lot closer to what I put up than it is to these new 2014 designs.

[T-6000]

Originally Posted by PreSage

Speaking of old school, I remember when they used to have the anime version of a facepalm by falling suddenly on the ground, face first, and sometimes have the character still lie down there in a very awkward/almost broken position, twitching like a dying animal (sorry, can't think of a better metaphor). I don't recall seeing that anymore, at least not in the anime I've watched lately. Didn't notice the change until I started to think about SM.

Yeah, I was wondering just where the hell this gag went? You couldn't watch an anime years ago without seeing this at least once, and then it sort of went away.

Maybe the new Anime should have that fall down gag at least once. For tribute.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There's mostly minimal differences between the Sailor Stars anime character designs and what I put up (the exception being Sailor Moon's outfit changes and weaponry/power changes and neither of those are likely to be factors in this new 2014 anime), which is why I never saw the need to get into it. I mean, these are mostly just mild touch-ups that almost any really long-running show will accumulate over time. And, in my opinion, the Sailor Stars anime character designs is a lot closer to what I put up than it is to these new 2014 designs.

Look again, the legs and torso are longer and slimmer, the faces are more angular, and the cheeks have less fat. And no this age has nothing to do with it as the change is apparent with Chibiusa as well, as she is still a child and yet is also shown to have the same long legs and slim torso as the older girls. Obviously they couldn't change them too much, because they still had to be recognizable. However the characters are drawn differently than how they were when the series first started. Its actually obvious that they are being drawn in a different style.

FYI that's actually not speculation they were actually drawn in a different style. The staff in charge of Character Design and art direction Kazuko Tadano, and Junichi Tanijuchi respectively were only around for the first season, R, and the R movie.

The person in charge of character design and art direction in Super and its movie was Mari Tominaga while the art director varied from episode to episode.

In SuperS the character designer was Ikuko Ito, while the art director also varied from episode to episode, while the movie's character designer was Hisashi Kagawa and the the art directors were Kenichi Tajiri
and Tadao Kubota.

Meanwhile the person the character designer in Stars was Katsumi Tamegai and their art director was Takamura Mukuo

The only person in charge of the background however stayed the same.

Also the new designs are closer to the manga than the original was. Here have some comparison The first season's designs are actually a great deviation from the original's, but subsequent seasons began to gravitate more towards Naoko's style.

Also remember this isn't for you to get a nostalgia boner on, but is rather a revamp to get new, younger viewers into the franchise.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Also remember this isn't for you to get a nostalgia boner on, but is rather a revamp to get new, younger viewers into the franchise.

Seems to me this series is many things to many fans. A few days ago a fan told me this series is trying to lure back in all those girls that have grown up and that can afford to buy sailor moon perfumes and jewelry. I have no doubt that for many it is a trip down memory lane, a good excuse to watch the same thing again, but NEW AND IMPROVED.

But since there wont be a TV broadcast I fail to see how those in grade school (which can watch Precure) or lower (those age categories were hooked by the original series) will not see this series since AFAIK even in Japan most kids do not have at that a cellphone good enough to stream TV series. So we are left with the middle schoolers to college students that already have a ton of midnight anime to see.

My problem still continues to be that many people expect the male audience to watch a series with highly stylized shoujo character designs. I have watched many shoujo animes, but they tone down manga style (for simplicty), but for a show that supposedly wants to grab all demographics it is off to a bad start.