Shakugan no Shana II - Episode 6 Discussion / Poll

[Aquifina]

Originally Posted by ashlay

At least in terms of characterization, its not bad writing at all. now if you want to argue its bad writing in terms of plot, be my guest.

In my opinion, everything in this series is subordinate to characterization--the action, the plot, the relationships, everything. And although there's character development, especially for Shana who goes from impassive unemotional flame haze to emotionally frustrated and head-over-heels-in-love flame haze, the characters are all at some basic level static. Yuji is always the nice guy who's intellectually sharp in everything but romantic dealings concerning himself; Shana is always the testy badass warrior; Kazumi is always the nice nurturing type who cooks well; etc. They get put in different situations, they end up having to deal with one another, etc., but for me at least, the characters always remain roughly the same.

And that's something I like about this series, mainly because I find the characters interesting. The angst lately has been overdone, and I wish we'd go to a proper action arc soon, but I'm still enjoying the series. I think a lot of the frustration for a lot of people is the issue of whether or not Yuji's character is consistently drawn (on that, I can see the complaint, but at the end, I'm okay for the most part with the writers here), and whether or not there's been *progress* in the plot--i.e. have Shana and Yuji advanced to the obvious end point of being a real "couple." I'll be horribly disappointed if we don't *eventually* get there, but because I don't expect the series to consistently move in a progressive and linear fashion, because of its ferocious focus on characterization, I think that makes me a lot more patient with the pacing. But I think I can understand the complaints.

To each their own, I suppose.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by ashlay

And Shana? What, you suddenly forget what happened at the end of last season? remember Shana being jealous over Yuji saying he was leaving to protect the humans in Misaki City? Yuji didn't figure out Shana wanted to hear "I want to go with you" there. Where's Yuji figuring out Shana is jealous of Kazumi? What exactly about this situation makes Yuji somehow "dumber"?

It has already been pointed out many times that Yuji has a tough time dealing with what Shana wants because of the rebukes she keeps throwing his way, gosh you defenders of Yuji consistency can't have it both ways! But lets look at that in the context of him angsting over how he was starting to believe that Shana just wants to destroy him to protect the hougu. He's got a pretty good reason to get it wrong that time doesn't he? Also keep in mind he did work out what she wanted in the end when he told her that he already decided a long time ago that he wanted to leave with her.

Originally Posted by ashlay

Yes, there's a plot hole, which was Yuji not hearing Shana. (and that's not even really a plot hole, it's just kinda lame) But assuming you accept that, and that Yuji and Shana haven't moved to a next stage in their relationship because of that, nothing and I do mean nothing else is a plot hole. Yuji still ends up being nice to girls, (and people in general for that matter) Shana still ends up moping in places he can't see her. And after this episode we've moved from Yuji thinking "well, Shana has some problem with Konoe, and she's not showing up to practice, I should find out what it is" to "well, Shana is getting along with Konoe now, and that only took a few days, I guess it wasn't as big a problem as I thought."

My issues have nothing to do with the Yuji x Shana relationship, I just think Yuji is inconsistent with the way he has been portrayed throughout S1. If he was written as a dumb nice harem guy throughout the show then that is fine, but with SnS1 I never thought that and with S2 not only do I think it but I notice how lots of people are now defending him because he is a dumb nice harem guy.

Also in regards to them all getting over the Konoe issue, isn't it kinda a sudden fix. Wow they had a laugh with her and Margery gave Yoshida a one liner and now suddenly everything is great again. Lets just forget all that un-naturally high jealousy for the last few episodes shall we?

[holyman282]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

My issues have nothing to do with the Yuji x Shana relationship, I just think Yuji is inconsistent with the way he has been portrayed throughout S1. If he was written as a dumb nice harem guy throughout the show then that is fine, but with SnS1 I never thought that and with S2 not only do I think it but I notice how lots of people are now defending him because he is a dumb nice harem guy.

Well from what you've discussed so far about Yuji's inconsistency, it's usually based on his lack of perceptive powers in terms of his romantic radar. This reguardless of whether it concerns the YujixShana relationship still inextricably ties the two together.

I'm not really a Yuji defender but I just find that although we've gotten insight into Yuji from his actions like you said, actions alone can still be deceiving... unless we get some sort of soliloquy ( or something like a dream sequence or anything that shows what exactly he's thinking) concluding that he's incosistent is over pushing the boundaries.

Also in regards to them all getting over the Konoe issue, isn't it kinda a sudden fix. Wow they had a laugh with her and Margery gave Yoshida a one liner and now suddenly everything is great again. Lets just forget all that un-naturally high jealousy for the last few episodes shall we?

Not really a sudden fix considering that Yuji's and Konoe's relationship wasn't romantic to start off with. The angst was caused by a misunderstanding and as such, it was fixed quite fast even if the misunderstanding wasn't cleared. Margery's advice was actually quite potent, "to know more about Yuji".. If Shana indeed knew more about Yuji, she'd realise that Yuji does not see Konoe in a romantic manner whatsoever. Basically it's about knowing the truth behind a situation before coming to unjustified conclusions.

Also considering they've built Yoshida and Shana's relationship over 2 ep, (which at first I thought was too long) I've finally realised that it's to justify Shana's acceptance of Yoshida advice (despite it coming from a secondary source). The trust Shana and Yoshida built up over there angst of YujixKonoe, was explained this ep and should make everyone wonder whether all the other supposed inconsistencies will have a certain reason behind them.

[d.sinclair]

Originally Posted by holyman282

I'm not really a Yuji defender but I just find that although we've gotten insight into Yuji from his actions like you said, actions alone can still be deceiving... unless we get some sort of soliloquy ( or something like a dream sequence or anything that shows what exactly he's thinking) concluding that he's incosistent is over pushing the boundaries.

Good point. But I think the fact that we don't know whether Yuuji is being inconsistent or not is in itself a bad thing. I think it's clumsily done character development to keep one character static in order to develop the others.

Originally Posted by holyman282

Also considering they've built Yoshida and Shana's relationship over 2 ep, (which at first I thought was too long) I've finally realised that it's to justify Shana's acceptance of Yoshida advice (despite it coming from a secondary source).

I don't think the anime is justified if you got that info from another source; a work should be able to stand up on its own merits. If the anime makes it seem too long, it's too long.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by holyman282

Well from what you've discussed so far about Yuji's inconsistency, it's usually based on his lack of perceptive powers in terms of his romantic radar. This reguardless of whether it concerns the YujixShana relationship still inextricably ties the two together.

I'm not really a Yuji defender but I just find that although we've gotten insight into Yuji from his actions like you said, actions alone can still be deceiving... unless we get some sort of soliloquy ( or something like a dream sequence or anything that shows what exactly he's thinking) concluding that he's incosistent is over pushing the boundaries.

Both fair points, I guess it is about our perception and interpretation as a viewer. TBH I don't mind the retcon so much now, as I find it has been over shadowed by the whole level the dumb romantic side of Yuji has been recently displayed. Maybe that is the issue, as that card wasn't really shown is S1, and since they are exploring it a whole lot more in S2 to me it sticks out like a sore thumb.

Originally Posted by holyman282

Not really a sudden fix considering that Yuji's and Konoe's relationship wasn't romantic to start off with. The angst was caused by a misunderstanding and as such, it was fixed quite fast even if the misunderstanding wasn't cleared. Margery's advice was actually quite potent, "to know more about Yuji".. If Shana indeed knew more about Yuji, she'd realise that Yuji does not see Konoe in a romantic manner whatsoever. Basically it's about knowing the truth behind a situation before coming to unjustified conclusions.

Also considering they've built Yoshida and Shana's relationship over 2 ep, (which at first I thought was too long) I've finally realised that it's to justify Shana's acceptance of Yoshida advice (despite it coming from a secondary source). The trust Shana and Yoshida built up over there angst of YujixKonoe, was explained this ep and should make everyone wonder whether all the other supposed inconsistencies will have a certain reason behind them.

That is a nice pov on the Shana and Yoshida bonding, even though I find it the most freaky type of bonding possible... For me the whole issue of their jealously was because Konoe was trying to monopolise Yuji's time, and Yuji was accepting that monopoly at the cost of spending time with them. Well the last part was self imposed by the girls in a way. I would have expected some resolution towards that, for example one of the girls hearing Yuji trying to stop walking Konoe to school. Instead Shana gets wet with Konoe and gets laughed at I was expecting her to pop a cog there. Yoshida gets some advice from Margery which she passes on to Shana (good point you make there) and suddenly everything is hunky dory... Well to be honest I can't really judge this yet as I haven't seen how Shana and Yoshida acts when they see Konoe grabbing Yuji's shirt again.....

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

My issues have nothing to do with the Yuji x Shana relationship, I just think Yuji is inconsistent with the way he has been portrayed throughout S1. If he was written as a dumb nice harem guy throughout the show then that is fine, but with SnS1 I never thought that and with S2 not only do I think it but I notice how lots of people are now defending him because he is a dumb nice harem guy.

alright, if you're going to say that, I want you tell me what scenes exactly in season 1 don't match up with the character you think he's become in season 2, because clearly this overall reference back thing isn't working.

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Also in regards to them all getting over the Konoe issue, isn't it kinda a sudden fix. Wow they had a laugh with her and Margery gave Yoshida a one liner and now suddenly everything is great again. Lets just forget all that un-naturally high jealousy for the last few episodes shall we?

well, I think you've basically answered you're own question. it is an unnaturally high jealousy based off a false understanding. Actually spending time with Konoe quickly reveals to Shana that she's not some snake woman, and that this extreme fear of god knows what in Shana's head is in fact ridiculous. Shana's already 'cured' before she goes up to the roof with Yoshida (the little conversation in the classroom reveals that), the lines are just a band aid to make sure Shana doesn't fall into such jealous fits again. Think of it as Yoshida simply putting something Shana has already started to figure out on her own into words (wouldn't be the first time ), which is why Shana quietly listens, immediately applies it to the current situation with Konoe and Yuji, and only acts surprised when Yoshida says she told Shana because she wanted to be fair.

[holyman282]

Originally Posted by d.sinclair

Good point. But I think the fact that we don't know whether Yuuji is being inconsistent or not is in itself a bad thing. I think it's clumsily done character development to keep one character static in order to develop the others.

Well sometimes not knowing something is more exciting then having a crystal clear insight on all aspects of a character. I would consider the lack of insight into Yuji more of a intended move by the writers to incite some mystery into his character and keep us guessing as to what the basis of his actions really is.

I don't know about you, but a character without any secrets or at least a few skeletons in their closets would be quite dull.

Originally Posted by grey_moon

That is a nice pov on the Shana and Yoshida bonding, even though I find it the most freaky type of bonding possible... For me the whole issue of their jealously was because Konoe was trying to monopolise Yuji's time, and Yuji was accepting that monopoly at the cost of spending time with them. Well the last part was self imposed by the girls in a way. I would have expected some resolution towards that, for example one of the girls hearing Yuji trying to stop walking Konoe to school. Instead Shana gets wet with Konoe and gets laughed at I was expecting her to pop a cog there. Yoshida gets some advice from Margery which she passes on to Shana (good point you make there) and suddenly everything is hunky dory... Well to be honest I can't really judge this yet as I haven't seen how Shana and Yoshida acts when they see Konoe grabbing Yuji's shirt again.....

All things considered I doubt it was because Konoe was monopolising their time with Yuji.. Yoshida for example, the introduction of Konoe probably gave her more chances to be with Yuji as she was picked as the other person to look after Konoe.. It also gives her a reason to walk home with Yuji (despite the fact that she lives in the opposite direction). Yoshida did not really see Konoe as a rival prior to that strange incident where she found Yuji and Konoe staring deeply into each other's eyes.

Similarly with Shana, considering that she probably spends the most time with Yuji out of everyone (morning and night practice training, school, tomogura hunting ect) the time Konoe takes up is miniscule compared to how much time Shana actually spends with Yuji throughout the day. Also if indeed Shana was disturbed by Yuji spending too much time with Konoe, I doubt not showing up for training helps, as now she spends even less time with Yuji. Unless you label that factor as incosistent also, it's probably just a misunderstanding on Yoshida's and Shana's part thinking that Yuji had a romantic relationship with Konoe.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by ashlay

alright, if you're going to say that, I want you tell me what scenes exactly in season 1 don't match up with the character you think he's become in season 2, because clearly this overall reference back thing isn't working.

Done that several times already. Instead of me listing out how Yuji wasn't portrayed as a dumb nice harem guy, how about you do the reverse?

Originally Posted by ashlay

well, I think you've basically answered you're own question. it is an unnaturally high jealousy based off a false understanding. Actually spending time with Konoe quickly reveals to Shana that she's not some snake woman, and that this extreme fear of god knows what in Shana's head is in fact ridiculous. Shana's already 'cured' before she goes up to the roof with Yoshida (the little conversation in the classroom reveals that), the lines are just a band aid to make sure Shana doesn't fall into such jealous fits again. Think of it as Yoshida simply putting something Shana has already started to figure out on her own into words (wouldn't be the first time ), which is why Shana quietly listens, immediately applies it to the current situation with Konoe and Yuji, and only acts surprised when Yoshida says she told Shana because she wanted to be fair.

So washing dishes is enough time to get to know Konoe? Geeezzz even we the viewers don't now her. As you already pointed out it is an un-natural high jealousy, so therefore should warrant a little more of a solution then what was currently shown.

Originally Posted by holyman282

Similarly with Shana, considering that she probably spends the most time with Yuji out of everyone (morning and night practice training, school, tomogura hunting ect) the time Konoe takes up is miniscule compared to how much time Shana actually spends with Yuji throughout the day. Also if indeed Shana was disturbed by Yuji spending too much time with Konoe, I doubt not showing up for training helps, as now she spends even less time with Yuji. Unless you label that factor as incosistent also, it's probably just a misunderstanding on Yoshida's and Shana's part thinking that Yuji had a romantic relationship with Konoe.

Actually I didn't want to over complicate that post, but since you raised it, doesn't all this add up to Yuji being more then dumb to not notice all the actions on Yoshida and Shana's part? What was going through his head? "Them girls are acting weird, oh well who cares as long as I can spend some quality time looking after my puppy". The point is he actually did notice something was up, but just didn't do anything about it at all until this episode and even then it was brushed aside by the Konoe shirt tug or instigated by someone else....

Yuji guy is portrayed as being rather quick on his feet suddenly in S2 is thick as two planks just coz the subjects are people who fancy him. The tomagura have got it all wrong, instead of trying to kill him straight off they should fancy him first as then that would dull his senses... (ofc Konoe could be that exact plan )

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

So washing dishes is enough time to get to know Konoe? Geeezzz even we the viewers don't now her. As you already pointed out it is an un-natural high jealousy, so therefore should warrant a little more of a solution then what was currently shown.

not enough time to get to know Konoe, enough time to dis-spell a false image of Konoe.

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Actually I didn't want to over complicate that post, but since you raised it, doesn't all this add up to Yuji being more then dumb to not notice all the actions on Yoshida and Shana's part? What was going through his head? "Them girls are acting weird, oh well who cares as long as I can spend some quality time looking after my puppy". The point is he actually did notice something was up, but just didn't do anything about it at all until this episode and even then it was brushed aside by the Konoe shirt tug or instigated by someone else....

That's right, because it's Yuji. Remember, that guy who didn't kiss shana, who tried to pretend he didn't see Shana naked in the second to last scene in s1, who keeps accepting lunchboxes from Yoshida, who doesn't confess, blah blah blah. In Yuji's head pushing the issue in the first couple of days means he might be hurting Shana's feelings. (remember when he tried to ask last time? Shana yelled at him) Only when forced with the fact that Shana continues to be miserable does he come to "well, I should find out what's wrong, since it doesn't seem Shana could be any unhappier". But of course Shana has worked the issue herself, which means Yuji has just been punished for trying to involve himself in the issue and rewarded for not doing so. Guess what'll happen next time a similar problem comes up?

[lua thien]

How long is Konoe going to continue clinging to Yuji? She looked a bit too robotic in doing so.

[KaneDragon]

A running gag for the next Shana-tan?

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by KaneDragon

A running gag for the next Shana-tan?

well, judging from that entire reversal in the last Shana-tan featuring Hecate (how exactly was it that despite Hecate being the one blushing and moaning while sitting on top of Yuji in the main series, Yuji ended up being the pervert? 0_o) I'm betting a Shana-tan special will have Yuji acting like Frigane, and Konoe's going to be his own personal Marianne.

[itis]

Anyone else tired of this bullshit school life drama crap? By this time in season one, they were already killing bad guys.

[Tokkan]

Originally Posted by itis

Anyone else tired of this bullshit school life drama crap? By this time in season one, they were already killing bad guys.

If you've been reading all these threads, you'd know the answer is yes, there are a lot of people who are tired of this stuff. Luckily, the Konoe focus is over for the time being. And the next time there is focus on her, there'd probably be alot more action to it.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by itis

Anyone else tired of this bullshit school life drama crap? By this time in season one, they were already killing bad guys.

someone seems to have forgotten Mare and Kasha. well, as Tokkan said, plenty of people don't seem to care about that.

anywho, I'd tell you to stop watching if you don't like it, but episode 8 seems to be getting to the action some viewers have been craving, so maybe you'll want to keep watching. *shrug*

[teachopvutru]

Originally Posted by ashlay

someone seems to have forgotten Mare and Kasha. well, as Tokkan said, plenty of people don't seem to care about that.

anywho, I'd tell you to stop watching if you don't like it, but episode 8 seems to be getting to the action some viewers have been craving, so maybe you'll want to keep watching. *shrug*

I don't dislike the current school drama, but I just hope that, like I've heard before on this thread and/or some previous threads, it'll have a dramatic impact on later stories and fights.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by ashlay

someone seems to have forgotten Mare and Kasha. well, as Tokkan said, plenty of people don't seem to care about that.

Coz plenty of people don't know about stuff which is going to happen in the future and we can only take it one episode at a time....

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Coz plenty of people don't know about stuff which is going to happen in the future and we can only take it one episode at a time....

...but Mare and Kasha were episodes 1 to 3.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by ashlay

...but Mare and Kasha were episodes 1 to 3.

Oh the dream clown, gosh I've forgotten all about her, I thought she had got beaten. To be honest the last few episodes of Yuji denseness has kinda overwhelmed me with this series. I hoping that hopefully they have gotten the whole Konoe makes everyone stupid or jealous thing out of the way and the story will move on and my interest will pick up.

[alvinkhorfire]

Well, let's have a cooking contest between Chigusa and Kazumi!

Originally Posted by minhtam2448

Of course, Keisaku's place is always clean because the writers fail to mention the maid and that we assume that the maid is there. And uh, I don't think Wilhelmina would be interested.

Anyway, as mentioned in S1, the only thing that Keisaku's parents concern is cleanliness. They do have a maid to keep the house clean. Maybe, the maid replenishes the booze stock regularly since Margery is fast at depleting it.

Originally Posted by minhtam2448

Someone tell her to buy something other than melon bread...

I was kind of hoping that Shana will give something else as bento to Yuji, like egg and breads since she took some cooking leason with Chigusa. The cooking leason was stopped after Shana is pisssed up. Since she is now happy again, hopefully she can resume cooking leason with Chigusa.


About whether Fumina is Hecate or not, can Shana fly to temporary residence of Bal Masque just to check whether Hecate is still at there or not? If Hecate is not at there, it just rises the possiblity of Fumina being Hecate.