2007-07-28, 14:50 | Link #61 | |
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But why would anyone place greater value to the success that cooperation brings over its alternative? What is the difference between successful and unsuccessful societies when there is no reliable objective framework by which to measure them? |
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2007-07-28, 14:51 | Link #62 | |
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2007-07-28, 15:03 | Link #63 |
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But they don't even have to have a choice to not be evil. They must simply apprehend what it is and act accordingly, even if evil is all that they are inclined to do. Riful doesn't show she doesn't apprehend it, only that she places no value upon human life aside from dinner.
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2007-07-28, 15:12 | Link #64 |
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Hello?? Wake up please, Don't you see. That we are a big huge step outside of the Topic. What has this discussion to do with Episode 17? Ask an Admin to make other Thread, so for this discussion.... Please this is a Anime. And a Anime in the 17th Episode. An Anime with the name Claymore. An Fiction World, with its own fiction rules.....
*Wake up*..... Let the Anime stuff in your Imagine world. don't drag it into your Own. See the boarder... see the front line, from Imagine and Real Life things... No hard feelings... |
2007-07-28, 15:24 | Link #65 | ||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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My point is, we're all human beings living in human societies. It's hardly surprising we'd have a few common ideas. Especially if morals is a mechanism evolved to make societies thrive. Quote:
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2007-07-28, 17:15 | Link #66 | |
Weapon of Mass Discussion
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Just remember to keep it relevant to Claymore and keep playing nice without rancor and I see no reason to shut down the discussion.
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2007-07-28, 17:28 | Link #67 | |
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2007-07-28, 18:42 | Link #69 | ||||
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I agree that Reality TV is horrible. It may be weak reasoning on my part, but I simply don't know how to account for that agreement if we didn't have some objective standard to agree upon. Ensemble musicians play in time because tempo is an objective measurement of pulse, and therefore can be reliably observed. And while there are fringes, outside of that you'll never encounter a group of people around you willingly jump off a bridge...without reason. Quote:
morals is a codification of certain truths about human behavior that can be grasped by the human mind. We didn't create the truth to which morals point to no more than we did what the multiplication table points to. Morals evolve as cultures progress, just as we ended up needing calculus to solve more complex problems. But as I've tried to demonstrate before, the evolution of morals doesn't seem to produce opposite kinds of morality that we can and would expect if there were no standards whatsoever. Instead, we get just slight variations depending upon different social values. Quote:
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No. But my question isn't what had become of uncooperative societies. Cooperative societies being more successful at sticking around longer is hardly an answer to why we should value sticking around over some desirable short term effects of uncooperative selfishness that would lead to our not being around anymore. Our instincts for self-preservation only triggers responses to immediate dangers to the self and does not extend to the preservation of our kind, so we can't attribute the whys of what we do for the commonwealth to primitive instinctual responses. Last edited by khryoleoz; 2007-07-28 at 19:28. |
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2007-07-28, 19:24 | Link #70 | ||||||||||||
I disagree with you all.
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That the feeling is shared by many people makes it only slightly less arrogant. Quote:
Considering all our similarities, it's not surprising that there are some. Quote:
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Or maybe you'd prefer fundamentalist Christianism? It's quite popular in some quarters. Or, oh, what about all those people who think religion doesn't matter one bit? What's your opinion of capital punishment? Of abortion? Of alcohol? Or marijuana? Those aren't exactly "cultural details" you can sweep under the rug, you know? Quote:
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So yes, when we say cooperation is "better", in that context, it means it's beneficial to both the societies and the individuals that comprise them. That it'll help them reach the goals of self-preservation, which we just assume they have. Because not doing so would be silly. We don't mean that it's better in any absolute moral sense. |
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2007-07-28, 19:52 | Link #71 | |||
Let's play a game!
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It's also in the best interests of any particular individual to discourage such behavior since it reduces the risk that they themselves will be the victim of it. Thus the individuals of the society cooperate in various ways to prevent and/or punish murderous actions. Quote:
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Quick summary: Society will form because cooperative behavior generates greater total benefit than selfish individual behavior. 'Society' can be considered as a collective entity composed of at least 2 individuals. Murder will be considered "wrong" because it reduces the total value of the society. Also, preventing it reduces personal risk, and is thus a net gain for selfish individual behavior as well. Secondary (not addressed in my posts above): Multiple societies will form because environmental specialization and locational isolation make cooperation more costly than its benefits. Also, competitive elements allow the 'better' societies to develop, and provide a basis for further society creation. From this point of view (which is, of course, only one of many), ethical frameworks are developed to support the existance of society. Morality in turn is that grouping of actions and behaviors that are either beneficial or detrimental to society. 'Good' actions are those which provide the greatest value for the society as a whole. 'Evil' actions are those that rob the society of net value. Further, killing individuals of competing societies (eg: wars, Claymore assignments, etc.) can, to a limited extent, be considered a means of reducing the net value of those other societies, and thus increasing the relative value of your own society. However, again, cooperative behavior will usually provide a greater net benefit. The issue with yomas eating humans makes that rather difficult to declare for the Claymore world, however. Returning to Riful, her actions can be viewed from the perspective of the ethical frameworks of: human society as a whole (where her behavior is considered evil); Claymore society (which mirrors human society, but may view things slightly differently as a whole); yoma society as a whole (where her actions are considered natural and/or good); and the localized society she is a part of (pretty much just her and Dauf at this point, but hoping to recruit others), where her behavior is intended to provide a benefit, but the actuality is at this point uncertain. Her actions with respect to Isley are that of a competitive society, and should be actions which should improve the value and survival of her own society. Just rolling over and accepting defeat reduces the value of her own society, and would thus be considered a detrimental/evil action. Therefore the 'good' thing for her to do is develop a strategy to improve the long-term survivability and growth of her society. The plan she has (currently) decided on is to recruit new Awakened Ones that will act in a cooperative manner with her in order to strengthen her society. Her reasoning is flawed, however, in thinking that raw strength alone is necessary, and her killing of Katia (who, by awakening, became a member of her society) is evil, in that is reduced the net value of her society. [Side note: Killing Katia is also necessary from the raw plot perspective in order to not complicate the fight that follows. As such I cannot put the entirety of the blame on Riful, though it was still wrong of her to do so.] Thus I would say that her planning is considered 'good' for her society, but she is not perfect and still takes evil actions. She herself, however, is not someone I would declare to be inherently evil. Oh, and followup: This also indicates that I do not believe that yoma/AOs are incapable of distinguishing good from evil. I just think that what is 'good' and 'evil' for them differs from human society in a few points. |
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2007-07-28, 20:34 | Link #72 | ||||||||||
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I don't know what to do with it. I can't compute how we can have two parallel lines intersected by a line segment yet its two interior angels sum to less than two right angles. Quote:
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2007-07-28, 20:55 | Link #73 | ||
Moving in circles
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You seem to suggest that because there is a possibility, however slim, that a theory/postulate/axiom can be false, we should avoid making such assumptions in the first place. Because making universal assumptions are intellectually arrogant? Following this line of logic, wouldn't that make any kind of rational thinking "arrogant"? Because to think rationally, we necessarily have to make some assumptions in the first place. @Kinematics I am familiar with game theory when applied to co-operative behaviour. In summary, what you have essentially shown is that it is possible to validate one set of ethical behaviour, ie, co-operative behaviour. Consequently, it follows, from game theory, that un-cooperative behaviour is invalid, from a logical/objective perspective. You've gone on to show that this test can be applied to Claymore, youma and Awakened Beings societies as well. Talking from a purely relative standpoint, why should the results of such a test matter? You revealed the brute fact that is more efficient to co-operate for long-term survival. The philosophical question then follows, "So what?" Why should efficiency matter more than non-efficiency? I believe that the efficiency of co-operation matters because it is both logical and desirable. We've arrived at the same conclusion, but I've made one more assumption than you. Is it necessary for co-operation to be desirable? Nope. But I do believe that it is easier to convince someone that co-operation is "good", rather than to make him see that it is logical. It is even possible that we will need to appeal to either logic and morality, if not both, to convince rational beings to behave in a certain way. After all, it is an observable fact that some rational people can behave irrationally, so logic alone doesn't work all the time. ========= Ultimately, all this discussion about whether absolute morality exists rather obfuscates my key concern as a rational being. What is the usefulness in knowing that different values and opinions exist? That is valid knowledge, certainly, but what good is that knowledge if I subsequently find myself unable to act on it, because of the opinion that any action I take -- based on my assumptions -- is "arrogant"? Anyways, my apologies for butting in again even though I said I wouldn't. While there certainly seems to be enough material for a new thread, I suggest that we don't create one, because from Episode 18 onwards, we Claymore fans would be discussing other stuff already. Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2007-07-28 at 22:14. |
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2007-07-28, 21:50 | Link #75 | |
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2007-07-28, 23:17 | Link #76 | ||
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I must say, this is a fun discussion.
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Non-cooperative behavior exists because of the limited ability of any individual to see all the results of their behavior, who instead rely only on the immediate here-and-now benefit of the action. This also helps explain the need for an ethical rule system, to make sure everyone understands the types of behavior that are best for the entire society, rather than having to continually re-discover those results. My overall view on morality: The morals we have are due to who and what we are, and the natural laws that govern our existance. There is no truly absolute, intrinsic morality in the universe the way that, say, math is absolutely intrinsic. However, for a given type of society there does exist some set of optimal behaviors which may generally be considered an absolute set of moral rules (dependant, however, on everyone always acting rationally, which cannot be assumed). There are also some subsets of ethics which are likely to be nearly universal (as far as I can imagine for variations on the existance of life) since they are in some ways describable as mathematical optimizations. However I do remember one sci-fi short story that described a world in which non-cooperative behavior was the norm due to an overabundance of natural resources in an Eden-like environment. With no scarcity of food, and no need for shelter from the elements, along with the resultant massive overpopulation, there was never a need for the native inhabitants to cooperate to achieve anything, and thus no need for 'society' to develop. While the author never really explored the aspect of the ethics of murder within that species, from my sketchy memory of the story, one member of the species killing another was considered inconsequential. In any case... Riful is part of a fairly new society - Awakened Ones - which doesn't have a strong enough history to truly know what will be most beneficial for it as a whole in the long run. Its moral requirements are different from humans', and yomas don't appear to have developed a strong enough cooperative society to disseminate any such system. As such she has to come up with her own rationalizations based on what she has experienced and knows about the relative positions of each of the groups involved in their respective roles. Those conclusions are what she explains to Jean in their little dialogue. She understands the value of cooperation, but only among those within a specifically defined set: strong Awakened Ones. That is because her goal (the benefit she will gain from said cooperation) is fighting a war against a competitive society (Isley). Because of the limited scope of her goal, the 'value' of her actions is not as universally applicable, and detrimental to associated societies (Claymores and humans), which leads to an overall conclusion that her actions are evil. In addition, up until this point she has had no need to examine the overall benefits of cooperation with a society comprised of food, or a society that is inherently antagonistic towards her. If you're an immortal being with godlike power, what is there, really, for you to desire? What can possibly be done that would add value (health, wealth, survivability) to your existance? As she admitted, up until now she has done very little besides eat and sleep. In order for her to value a cooperative relationship, there has to be something that she desires. At the moment, we have seen possible evidence of two such things: something to keep her from being bored, and friends. Of course, gaining cooperation with the other societies would require them to overlook the whole "eating humans" thing (an 'evil' (detrimental) behavior for those societies). The only ones she can expect to act in a cooperative manner within her society are other Awakened Ones. Thus her "recruitment". Overall conclusion: Riful's actions are currently more evil than good due to the limited scope of her goals and (not entirely her fault) the unlikeliness of cooperation being given by alternate societies. That does not, however, make her inherently evil, or incapable of developing more cooperative, 'good' behavior. |
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2007-07-28, 23:35 | Link #77 |
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I'll take that overall conclusion of yours as a satisfactory response to that provocative idea that "this whole 'evil' thing is nonsense".
That said, while the action scenes outperformed the manga, it is a bitter disappointment that much of the more substantive insights provided by Riful were watered down or even omitted. She didn't give an account of her routine activities and what roused her to take up the fight. She didn't complain about the actions of Easley and "that thing". Even Priscilla was reduced to that "one-horned woman". Spoiler:
Jean's awakened form was...beautiful however. And wearing Clare's cloak not wearing anything...um, down there, was quite suggestive if not provocative. Hot! I'd have to rate the episode a 9. Last edited by khryoleoz; 2007-07-28 at 23:57. |
2007-07-29, 02:54 | Link #78 | |||||||
I disagree with you all.
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And now that I think of it, massive collective suicides aren't unheard of, either. Quote:
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And I never said that creed was the whole of my morality, either. But, whatever. It doesn't matter. So, yes, there is the common point among maybe all moral systems that there is some value in some human lives. Hardly a big statement. Or surprising, considering the fact that morals were evolved by human beings living in human societies. Quote:
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Kinematics: Maybe having Duph hit new AB isn't completely gratuitous. Rites of passages aren't rare, so they must provide something. I guess they get rid of those who are unable to pull their own weight, or unwilling to make sacrifices for the tribe. Also, maybe AB have an instinct to follow those who've beaten them. And that would be what she counts on to make them her "friends", despite the torture thing. But I agree that she's placed the bar too high. At this rate, gaining new members is going to be difficult. |
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2007-07-29, 05:26 | Link #79 |
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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The long morality debates are getting on my nerves now -.-, sorry but please request for a morality thread instead of posting it here, I just want to read opinions about the episode not your opinions if AOs are good or evil or comparing Claymore to RL.
Since Riful didn't even say anything about AOs being good or evil in the episode I'm treating it as offtopic. |
2007-07-29, 12:30 | Link #80 |
Awe of She
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Che, I think that the Morality issue in Claymore deserves its own thread by now as well, seeing the vigorous debates that go on about it are turning away some other people from commenting on the episode itself. Although the stuff about 'absolute morality' and such can be turned down. Since few people believe that an absolute morality exists in the RL, how can one be applied to an anime world, much less Claymore...
And people love Riful for being what she is - an 80+ year old, cute-as-anything loli Awakened with an IQ of 180 who can turn into a tentacle monster. So what's with the discussion about her morality issues? SHE'S BORED AND EASLEY'S PICKING A FIGHT SO SHE WANTS TO FIGHT/PLAY TOO!! Duff's obviously not enough so she wants more people on her side whom she can trust and become friends with. She's a being ruled by desires now - no morals apply to her now. If they did, she wouldn't have killed Awakened Katea back in ep 15. Morality is a belief system and as such, all aspects of a particular belief system cannot be rationally explained. It's an ideal - a code to live by - a way of life. Can anyone here explain what a belief is? Then anyone can see that even though a fact can be absolute (Murder is wrong/bad/evil), there are just some people who don't believe that. Does that mean that it is no longer an absolute just because a bunch of ignorants choose not to abide by it? There is an absolute morality in the world. Don't ask me to prove it to you because I'm not doing your work for you. You can make all the conjectures and assumptions you want but an absolute doesn't have to prove itself - it just is. Whether you believe it or not - that's your problem - not its problem. Discover the absolute morality that you can believe in for yourself. If someone can show you a better path and 'prove' through actions and words that are acceptable to you, that doesn't make you stupid for believing such in the first place. Convert - learn - grow - become better - that's what makes a human a human. Don't be afraid of being 'disproven' - being 'ignorant' might be bad, but it is better than being both 'ignorant' and 'stubborn'. NSW and to any other mods, if the above needs to be edited/cut in any way, go ahead and do so. I don't care if I incur any points for this one, but some aspects of the morality issue/discussion were getting ridiculous in my opinion. Anyway, congrats to Clare and Jean are in order, Jean espcially. I still can't really believe that she held on for so freaking long. I'd love to see her backstory and how did she achieve such a strong willpower. That and she looks sooo much better in the anime than in the manga. |
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