Fate/Zero - Speculation & Theories (for F/SN Game Players)

[ShadesOfSolomon]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Geeze that wasn't a fight that was a one-sided massacre.



His strength is his flaw. Since he's so damn powerful with one-hit KO weapons he doesn't take things seriously.

If he did he would've won in all routes. Tokiomono's huge mistake was hiding in his hole and playing like an assassin/spy when he should've had Gil just go all out. Keeping him in the shadows and playing games and avoiding confrontation is not Gil's stance. This is why Kiritisugu made Saber go out and do her own thing because he knew they wouldn't work together properly.

The only one I could see matching him is Archer/shirou (because of the trace ability which allows him to copy him) and Saber full power and maybe even berserker.

That assessment seriously undersells Gilgamesh's power. Against any enemy whom he was taking seriously, all he'd have to do would be to unleash Ea. Out of the three servants you mention, only Saber would be able to survive a hit - courtesy of Avalon - and even then, her ability to counterattack would be wholly contingent on Gilgamesh refusing to abuse his more broken Noble Phantasms. Not to mention the fact that if Gilgamesh only cared about victory, he could just summon the Vimana and take her down from outside her range.

Berserker and Archer, quite simply, would be curb stomped if Gilgamesh were serious. The light novel even lampshades the fact - when Tokiomi recalls Gilgamesh after his first fight against Berserker, it's commented that Berserker couldn't have handled the number of Noble Phantasms that Gilgamesh planned on unleashing. As for Shirou/ Archer - Ea is untraceable, and they also have nothing to play against Gilgamesh's multitude of 'sure win' attacks. Archer's best defense, Rho Aius, only barely manages to fend off Lancer's Gae Bolg, and its power is not comparable to Ea.

Gil is introduced and -defined- as the anti-Servant. He is the Servant who counters all the other servants.

[Linkark07]

Originally Posted by Archer

It seems that the Final Episode screening/QA session at Anime Expo is planned to be two hours long, so that might hint that the finale is a double-length. Fingers crossed, I guess.

Oh yeah, I would love that.

BTW, how do you think the anime will end?; I believe Ufotable will put the scene when Kiritsugu and Shirou talk before Kerry dies. In my opinion, that scene will help potential F/SN viewers or readers to understand why Shirou wants to be a hero of justice in the visual novel.

I would love though, that after that the last scene is when Saber is summoned by Shirou and then she asks him if he is her master but that's wishful thinking.

[Village Idiot]

Originally Posted by ShadesOfSolomon

That assessment seriously undersells Gilgamesh's power. Against any enemy whom he was taking seriously, all he'd have to do would be to unleash Ea. Out of the three servants you mention, only Saber would be able to survive a hit - courtesy of Avalon - and even then, her ability to counterattack would be wholly contingent on Gilgamesh refusing to abuse his more broken Noble Phantasms. Not to mention the fact that if Gilgamesh only cared about victory, he could just summon the Vimana and take her down from outside her range.

Berserker and Archer, quite simply, would be curb stomped if Gilgamesh were serious. The light novel even lampshades the fact - when Tokiomi recalls Gilgamesh after his first fight against Berserker, it's commented that Berserker couldn't have handled the number of Noble Phantasms that Gilgamesh planned on unleashing. As for Shirou/ Archer - Ea is untraceable, and they also have nothing to play against Gilgamesh's multitude of 'sure win' attacks. Archer's best defense, Rho Aius, only barely manages to fend off Lancer's Gae Bolg, and its power is not comparable to Ea.

Gil is introduced and -defined- as the anti-Servant. He is the Servant who counters all the other servants.

Nah, that was from Tokiomi's view point.

Berserker definitely could have kept going, remember Berserker himself was also holding back.

The anime doesn't explain this, but Berserker not only gains a stat boost in everything once he draws Arondight, but his true fighting skill is unlocked, which actually surpasses Knight of Honor, which already provides him complete mastery of any weapon.

But ya, if Gil was serious, even Zero Berserker would be easily taken out.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Linkark07

Oh yeah, I would love that.

BTW, how do you think the anime will end?; I believe Ufotable will put the scene when Kiritsugu and Shirou talk before Kerry dies. In my opinion, that scene will help potential F/SN viewers or readers to understand why Shirou wants to be a hero of justice in the visual novel.

That's always been my guess, though initially I doubted there would be time for it. But since the preview for episode 24 makes it clear they'll get as far as Saber destroying the Grail as per Kiritsugu's command, they just might make it after all.

[DragoZERO]

I'm not sure what is coming next ep. It feels like there should be more than one episode for the conclusion... will have to read the novels to truly find out but I would prefer to have very little F/SN at the end.

[Aesthetic Shampoo]

I hope the next episode will end on the cliffhanger of Kiritsugu using his last command spell, and that's already pushing it. Any more and it will feel so rushed. As for how it ends, i always imagined it would be Kiritsugu having a flashback of Shirley's question as he dies, and it ending with Kerry answering "i want to be a hero!". But that shirou summon saber scene really appeals to me too. As long as they don't completely leave out Shirou, i'll be satisfied i think.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

I'm not sure what is coming next ep.

Really? Having read F/SN, we already know quite a bit of what will unfold from this point on. Even the anime adaptation revealed a lot of the 4th War's ending.

Spoiler for F/SN stuff, don't check if you'd rather got into F/Z's climax with your memory unrefreshed:

- Obviously we can infer that Kariya and Berserker will most likely meet their end in the next episode, since the teams of Saber/Kiritsugu and Archer/Kirei are the last standing ones.
- Gilgamesh will propose to Saber.
- Kiritsugu and Kirei fight. From what I remember, the former shoots the latter in the heart, but Kirei replaces it with the contents of the Grail to keep going. Kiritsugu somehow defeats Kirei still (that's Avalon for ya).
- Kirei wishes for everyone around him to disappear to the Grail and the fire breaks out (though it seems that would've happened either way).
- Kiritsugu fully realizes the evil nature of the Holy Grail and orders Saber to destroy it (hopefully this will conclude episode 24 of F/Z, since it does feel like taking it any further would be rushing things).
- Saber does so and the contents of the Grail spill over onto Gilgamesh, which may or may not have changed his character into the more wicked person we see in F/SN (he claims it didn't affect him, but I'll believe it or not when I see it).
- Kiritsugu spares Kirei's life for some reason and goes to search for survivors, finding Shirou of course.
- The remaining orphans are taken by Kirei to serve as sources of mana to keep Gilgamesh in the world.
- Kiritsugu adopts Shirou but ends up dying to the Grail's curse, which Kirei probably infected him with.

...That's about it I think. Correct me if I'm wrong on anything (but with F/SN knowledge only of course, no Fate/Zero novel spoilers please).

Originally Posted by EssTEss

I hope the next episode will end on the cliffhanger of Kiritsugu using his last command spell, and that's already pushing it. Any more and it will feel so rushed. As for how it ends, i always imagined it would be Kiritsugu having a flashback of Shirley's question as he dies, and it ending with Kerry answering "i want to be a hero!". But that shirou summon saber scene really appeals to me too. As long as they don't completely leave out Shirou, i'll be satisfied i think.

There's no way they will leave out Shirou entirely. Kiritsugu finding him amidst the flames is probably the most cathartic moment in the man's life. They'll show at least that much, even if not Kiritsugu's death.

I think the chances of seeing Shirou summon Saber are slim to none though, and personally I wouldn't want to see that conclude Fate/Zero anyway. They'd have to quickly introduce the new war, have Shirou be attacked by F/SN Lancer, etc. which would just be too much. It should simply end with this scene:

Spoiler:

Only with ufotable production values rather than DEEN's crappy ones, of course.

[Klashikari]

(he claims it didn't affect him, but I'll believe it or not when I see it).

Actually, according to Saber, it did, because in the VN, when she sees Gil, she mentions how he is "somewhat" different, like a bit more "excited".

[Vicious108]

Yeah, I believe Saber's assessment of him is probably the more accurate one there, but I still want to see the moment it happened for myself before being sure of anything.

And Gil's panicked "What are you doing, Saber!?" line in the preview for episode 24 definitely hints at the possibility of it being shown in the next episode, so I'm all the more excited for it (while still hoping they don't rush anything of course).

[Linkark07]

Yeah, I'm sure next episode is the end of the 4th Holy Grail War. The cliffhanger in my opinion is when Kerry orders Saber to destroy the grail.

And yes, after seeing how Gilgamesh respected Iskandar and Waver I believe he was affected by the Grail corruption in some way, even though he doesn't want to admit it.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Linkark07

Yeah, I'm sure next episode is the end of the 4th Holy Grail War. The cliffhanger in my opinion is when Kerry orders Saber to destroy the grail.

And yes, after seeing how Gilgamesh respected Iskandar and Waver I believe he was affected by the Grail corruption in some way, even though he doesn't want to admit it.

Indeed, which explains his somewhat different demeanor in F/SN, more prone to cruelty and more extreme about his distaste for the modern world, and with rarer moments of respect or benevolence towards others. However, unlike some people seem to believe, I thought that more favorable facet of his was already present in F/SN, only in much lower quantities due to the effect all the evils in the world had on him. But it can be glimpsed in certain moments, namely, in Fate - his moderate show of respect towards fellow demigod Cu Chulainn, his final words to Saber, in UBW - his conversations with Shinji, where he spoke of how he recognized the laborers of his day, and in HF - his conversations with Kotomine, which were similar to their scenes in Zero and showed a Gilgamesh concerned about the shadow going around and killing people.

So yeah, it's not like Urobuchi simply decided to give him less villainous qualities out of the blue. Those were there already, only it made sense to make them clearer and more frequent in his pre-Grail corruption self. Not to mention, of course, there's no Broskander in the 5th War, and he was the main source of "respectful Gil" moments in Zero. It doesn't help that him and Kotomine barely had any scenes together in F/SN either (which feels like a huge waste after watching Zero and seeing how awesome they are together).

[Linkark07]

Agree. I think, as far as I remember, the only times I saw Gil and Kirei talking were in Heaven's Feel.

BTW, why Gil calls Kirei by his first name in Zero but in F/SN he calls him by Kotomine?; never understood that.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Linkark07

Agree. I think, as far as I remember, the only times I saw Gil and Kirei talking were in Heaven's Feel.

Basically, yeah. They appear together in the scene in the church just before Lancer dies off-screen in Fate, but they don't really talk there. In UBW it's even stranger, they never even share the screen and, sadly, Gil doesn't even acknowledge Kotomine's death as he goes own with his plans for the Grail.

BTW, why Gil calls Kirei by his first name in Zero but in F/SN he calls him by Kotomine?; never understood that.

I've wondered about that myself, but I'm beginning to think there's no real reason for it and that it was simply done because in F/SN he's mostly known as Kotomine because that's what the narrator, Shirou, calls him, whereas in Zero he's surrounded by people like his father and mentor, who thus utilize his first name. So basically Gil just adapts to the narrative I presume. Or maybe it's a retcon in Zero, since Nasu probably hadn't planned for their relationship to be as deep as Urobuchi made it in Zero, and if there ever were a revision of F/SN they would have Gil use "Kirei" there too.

[Kanon]

I don't think Gilgamesh has been corrupted by the grail, at least not to an extent that would change his personality. His behavior towards Rider is merely a rare exception. He's treated everybody else like trash in this war, and clearly derived pleasure from seeing other people suffering (Saber in particular). If you discount his interactions with Rider, then F/Z's Gilgamesh is really not all that different from F/SN Gil.

The differences there are could be attributed to the fact he's spent 10 long years observing the human world, and what he's witnessed made him grow even more disgusted of humanity.

[Vicious108]

I wouldn't call it changing his personality, simply bringing to the surface his meaner streak a little more often. And sure he's been an ass towards most people in this war, but nothing in the same league as, say, the way he killed Illya in UBW.

But yeah, I also factor the 10 years into it. In the 4th War, at the beginning of his new life in the modern world, he seems to hold a glass half full perspective towards it; it is unspeakably ugly, but there are still worthwhile people if you look closely, so it's all good. But come the 5th War, it seems he's already grown weary of it and has instead adopted a glass half empty perspective, which translates into wanting to rid the world of all of the "meaningless extras" so only the worthwhile ones remain.

Either that or the boredom got to him:

Spoiler:

[Linkark07]

That picture reminds me a lot of what Gilgamesh did between those 10 year in Carnival Phantasm.

[Touko]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I don't think Gilgamesh has been corrupted by the grail, at least not to an extent that would change his personality. His behavior towards Rider is merely a rare exception. He's treated everybody else like trash in this war, and clearly derived pleasure from seeing other people suffering (Saber in particular). If you discount his interactions with Rider, then F/Z's Gilgamesh is really not all that different from F/SN Gil.

The differences there are could be attributed to the fact he's spent 10 long years observing the human world, and what he's witnessed made him grow even more disgusted of humanity.

The King cannot be controlled and cannot be corrupted.
He's just lost more respect for humans, and the low-calibre Servants of the Fifth Heaven's Feel did not help.

Originally Posted by Village Idiot

Nah, that was from Tokiomi's view point.

Berserker definitely could have kept going, remember Berserker himself was also holding back.

The anime doesn't explain this, but Berserker not only gains a stat boost in everything once he draws Arondight, but his true fighting skill is unlocked, which actually surpasses Knight of Honor, which already provides him complete mastery of any weapon.

But ya, if Gil was serious, even Zero Berserker would be easily taken out.

Incorrect, and you need to re-read what each of them does.

Arondight provides a hefty boost and other bonuses (such as Dragon-slaying), but it SEALS his other Noble Phantasms. It does not unlock "more fighting skills".

Eternal Arms Mastership is the one that causes him to retain martial arts prowess (which is not sealed by Arondight,due to being a skill). Knight of Honour is the one that lets him grab light poles and use them as Noble Phantasms.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

HF probably is the closest of the three routes to a conclusion to most of Zero's plot threads, but I find that Fate and UBW would also be very much enhanced by the prequel and serve as fitting second halves to it. Especially the latter. UBW Shirou is just about the only reason Kiritsugu's life didn't turn out to be nothing but tragedy, since he was the one that fully delivered on their promise at the end of Kiritsugu's life, which ended in relief due to the knowledge that his son would become what he had always wanted to be in his stead.

Hey I just noticed this. This is wrong in so many levels. For one, Shirou arrives to no answer in UBW about what he'll do. Even the VN points it out (he himself has no clue of what to do). The only route with an answer is HF. That's why HF is the only route with a bad end where Shirou can choose to be Kiritsugu II (the Ally of Justice one). It's mean to give out answers: good and bad ones.

Obvious problem is Saber's conclusion. But... you'll see.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Thess

Hey I just noticed this. This is wrong in so many levels. For one, Shirou arrives to no answer in UBW about what he'll do. Even the VN points it out (he himself has no clue of what to do). The only route with an answer is HF. That's why HF is the only route with a bad end where Shirou can choose to be Kiritsugu II (the Ally of Justice one). It's mean to give out answers: good and bad ones.

Uh, he quite clearly gives his answer to Rin "No matter what, wanting to protect others can never be wrong." Then he gets faced with the worst possible end result of the path he will be following, but still maintains his resolve and claims he won't let regret overcome him and make him stray from his path like it did Archer.

I realize you find Kiritsugu's ideal to be abominable, but do you really believe he would be unhappy with how Shirou turned out in UBW (which was all I was even saying in that post you quoted)?

[Kusa-San]

For me the true route is Fate. Why ? Because it's the only route who got an epilogue.