Fall 2004 series - Subbing List

[Vespre]

Nice job double teaming the guy. I guess this debate is over whether or not zipang should be watched or even made. I just watched the raw today and it seems interesting, but it definitely has the potential to be dangerous. Freedom of speech in this context is fine, provided you have an accurate depiction of REAL history before hand. How you were brought up, the environment you are in might lead you to think this is kind of thing is no big deal. What about in a country where textbooks still don't fess up to reality?

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by LordBrian

I don't think we've ever been discussing the finer points of the Zipang story, so I don't really see the need to read the whole manga. The discussion, as it stands, is about why you feel Zipang tries to convey the "wrong ideas."

Think about that statement for a second.

Now, explain to me why your ideas are the right ones.

I think I already posted why I think it has conveyed the wrong ideas. Do you have any doubts that what Hitler has done may not be wrong? Do you have any doubts that massacring Jews may not be wrong? Invading other countries and massacring countless civilians are wrong, there shouldn't be any doubts about that. To say that it is wrong to start a war and massacre civilians because you have evaluated the situation wrongly and can't win the war, not because invading others and massacring civilians are wrong in themselves, this is definitely the wrong idea. If you think otherwise, then please state your reasons. Do you think it's the right idea that the Japanese were not wrong to invade others and massacre civilians in WW2, they were just making a mistake of starting a war they couldn't win? And I think this is exactly the idea that the current neo-history revisionism tries to brainwash their youths with, to make them think that their country has not done any really dishonorable thing in the WW2.

If you want to call something like Zipang anything even resembling "revisionist history," I suggest you look up the term and learn something. You may even discover why you sound uneducated.

It is not revisionist history in itself, but it is supporting the ideas which are behind the neo-history revisionism in Japan.

If you want to decry it as militant, as extreme right-wing, as too nationalist, in order to promote your own agenda, that is your business.

have it occured to you that I may not be decrying it as militant, as extreme right-wing, as too nationalist, in order to promote my own agenda, but rather because that is what it really is?

Originally Posted by Enron

I wonder if the author of Zipang is merely trying to brainwash the youth of japan into thinking that Japan is a great Warrior Military State that is destined to Rule the Pacific, and that WWII wasn't their fault because, after all, they are predestined to rule everything in the expanse of the pacific from mainland China the West Coast of the USA!

I think you may actually get this right. If you have read Kawaguchi Kaiji's works, he obviously think that way. He's quite a nationalist and militarist.

Do you get offended when a story challenges your notion that a historical "enemy" may have been just as human as you? Do stories that paint Japanese/German soldiers in anything OTHER than a negative light get your blood boiling because, after all, its putting the ideals of what they are fighting for on a pedestal, and those ideas were OMGWTFBBQ EVIL?

Well, if it's just about some isolated soldiers or civilians, ie. Grave of Fireflies, I have no problem about it. But this is a POLITICAL manga! It's not just about some soldiers fighting in wars about their ideals! It's already about they meet up with the Japanese ministers to discuss about strategical and political plans for Japan in WW2! That's definitely different from some Vietnam Wars or WW2 movies. This is way more POLITICAL than those works. That's why I have no problem reading the manga when all they do is fight off threat despite what they have done benefit the Japanese side. It's about the protagonist going to the minister to say "umm, based on future information, there will be oil field discovered in this part of China, so we should take it over and drill for oil now, for the future of a happy, peaceful, independent Japan" kind of stuff that's crossing the line here.

Originally Posted by wao

Also, I guess this is my personal bias coming in again, but I always thought it was a bit silly for people to get so offended over media that they'd complain so angrily about it. I mean, okay, you get really bad stuff out there that is pretty nasty to certain parties, but even though you get offended, ultimately (well, this is how I believe) it's because you want to be offended... Other people provide the circumstances but you are the one that makes the choice and learns to accept that other people actually think differently and let go or otherwise...

It is a good point, but I'm not actually complaining about it. There's no point for me to complain about a piece of work from some japanese militarist and nationalist. What I'm saying is that I don't want more people getting misleaded by some wrong ideas conveyed through the work. From a previous debate on Zipang in another thread, it seems to me that a lot of people don't quite know what really happened in WW2 Asia, and if Zipang becomes popular that situation could only be worsened. That's why I recommend something like Dragon -RON- , if you are interested in WW2 Asia, then first you should get a more balanced and realistic view on the situation instead of going for some japanese militarist and nationalistic stuff.

[LordBrian]

Originally Posted by dreamless

Invading other countries and massacring countless civilians are wrong, there shouldn't be any doubts about that. To say that it is wrong to start a war and massacre civilians because you have evaluated the situation wrongly and can't win the war, not because invading others and massacring civilians are wrong in themselves, this is definitely the wrong idea. If you think otherwise, then please state your reasons.

Since you missed it the first time, I'll repeat: bogus and irrelevant points do not help you win your arguments. If you don't understand what I mean, then simply stop talking about Hitler.

To address the last sentence in the above quote: in the context of a literary work, I do indeed think otherwise. In the context of a literary work, I think anything is fair game. I think the problem here is that you are taking this series far too seriously. Yes, nearly everything with a political slant will be propaganda to one extent or another, but seriously, is the author of the manga trying to convince people to go off and slaughter innocent civilians, or is he using the idea as a tool to drive the story along?

My reasoning for saying that, again, in the context of a literary work it is okay to advocate massacres is because it can create for interesting scenarios. George Orwell wrote about an all-too-realistic future where our every move is watched by the government -- he was not advocating for Big Brother to be implemented. Ray Bradbury wrote about censoring inflammatory books -- he was not advocating that practice (though you might have an alternate opinion on what books should or should not be allowed to exist). This person created a perverted story about the death-torture of a couple and their neighbors -- I'm almost positive they wouldn't ask anyone to do something like this in real life.

But you know what? That Sims thing is still freakin hilarious, even though it does deal with senseless violence. It doesn't try to work on a grander scale like Zipang, and it doesn't offer any what-if questions about history, but the basic concept is the same.

I am not debating real life concepts of right and wrong, a point you seem to miss every time I reply. I will not argue on a moral level about the decisions that people made back then, or decisions that they make now. I will argue that the decisions made by a bunch of people who travelled back in time in a battleship may not be the authoritative source you want to use when discussing real life issues, though.

And again, I don't care if the story is militant, extreme rightist, etc. It has every right to be. If your agenda is to dissuade people from reading the manga or watching the show, that is something I find worth taking issue with. If you just want to inform people that they should enjoy the show for what it is, but to keep in mind that it may have an alternate message that you disagree with, then fine. Say that. But that is a far cry from the offense you seem to be taking.

Well, if it's just about some isolated soldiers or civilians, ie. Grave of Fireflies, I have no problem about it. But this is a POLITICAL manga! It's not just about some soldiers fighting in wars about their ideals! It's already about they meet up with the Japanese ministers to discuss about strategical and political plans for Japan in WW2!

It's because of statements like this that I can't really take you seriously. I ask you, so what? If you're worried that someone might get some ideas and travel back in time and, I dunno, talk to the Japanese ministers about where to drill for oil or whatever, I can put your fears to rest: it's not happening. If you're worried about something else happening, I can't for the life of me figure out what it is.

[dreamless]

Yes, nearly everything with a political slant will be propaganda to one extent or another, but seriously, is the author of the manga trying to convince people to go off and slaughter innocent civilians, or is he using the idea as a tool to drive the story along?

I can assure you that the author of the manga is not just using the idea as a tool drive the story along, it's the central theme of the manga! It's the clearly the main idea the author tries to pass through to its readers. That we were not wrong in WW2 invading and killing people, we were wrong in starting a war we can't win. Of course whether you believe me or not, it's for you to decide. But this has a LOT of things to do with the manga itself here, if you don't read the manga, and you don't believe me, and you continue to think that those are just plot devices, tools to drive the story along, while the main theme is something else (obviously you can't possibly know what "something else" is the manga's main theme because you haven't read the manga) in your own fiction, then there's no way to continue the discussion in any logical way.

I can only see two ways for this discussion to continue,
1. you believe me that the main theme is a militaristic and nationalistic one.
2. you go and read the Zipang manga and some WW2 history records and probably read the Dragon -RON- manga, to see for yourself, to think for yourself what Zipang's main theme is. And then if you think differently from me, we can have a better debate on this matter.

It's because of statements like this that I can't really take you seriously. I ask you, so what? If you're worried that someone might get some ideas and travel back in time and, I dunno, talk to the Japanese ministers about where to drill for oil or whatever, I can put your fears to rest: it's not happening. If you're worried about something else happening, I can't for the life of me figure out what it is.

As I said above. It's not a plot device. I have nothing against using massacres or whatever as tools to drive story along, but when it's this idea that's the main theme of the manga, it's crossing the line. It's promoting the idea that it's okay for Japan to invade others, massacre their people, steal their resources, enslave their people, as long as it benefits Japan and that Japan can get away with it without suffering a shameful defeat, all for a prosperous, glorious, happy and peaceful Zipang. Yes this is definitely the main theme, this is not some tool to drive the plot along.

Also it's something different to base the setting on a fictional future, from basing the setting on real history. We should take history seriously, and as Vespre pointed out, it might be okay if you have enough knowledge of the REAL history, but it's very dangerous if you don't and then watch some misleading stuff and ideas. Zipang, even aside its militaristic and nationalistic main theme, also has a very biased and limited and sometimes downright incorrect view on the WW2 Asia. So even if you think you will not be influenced by its militaristic and nationalistic main theme, it also doesn't give you much info on what really happened in WW2, or just a very one-sided view with some misleading and/or incorrect info.

Hmm... maybe it could be said somewhat similar to Ramuiro Senkitan. Ramuiro Senkitan is also set in real history, the Japan-Russia war, and it painted both the Japanese and Russian side with good colors, like they are knight-like and samurai-like in the war, ignoring the fact that they are fighting the war in a third country and killing countless civilians of that country. In the end it basically says that both Japan and Russia are not wrong, they both have patriotic people who wish for a strong Japan/Russia, they are just having conflicting dreams, they are both fighting for their dreams, for the better living of the Japanese/Russians... but what about you invading another country and killing civilians of that country? You are trying to make your own country strong by massacring people and stealing land and resources from others! It's already a bit quite annoying for Ramuiro Senkitan, even it has this kind of idea only as an underlying background, but it's 1000 times worse in Zipang, when it straight promotes this kind of idea directly as its central theme! That they should steal other countries' land and resources and enslave people to work for them in order to prevent Japan from losing the war, to reach a "peace without shameful defeat" with US and to build the happy and strong Zipang. And I guess it should be quite obvious that's the main theme of the manga when the title Zipang is what the protagonist call this "ideal Japan" of his in the manga

And again, I don't care if the story is militant, extreme rightist, etc. It has every right to be. If your agenda is to dissuade people from reading the manga or watching the show, that is something I find worth taking issue with. If you just want to inform people that they should enjoy the show for what it is, but to keep in mind that it may have an alternate message that you disagree with, then fine. Say that. But that is a far cry from the offense you seem to be taking.

Hmm... not only I didn't try to dissuade people from reading the manga or watching the show... currently it seems I'm actually trying to persuade you to read the manga now I'm trying to say that Zipang, although technically is a good manga, it has a very dangerous (and IMO downright wrong) main theme and misleading/incorrect stuff inside. so much so that I stopped reading the manga even though I admit it is technically quite good. And I recommend Dragon -RON- to everyone. So if you decide that you don't want to watch Zipang, fine by me, but if you decide you want to watch Zipang, keep in mind it may not be what you expect from a standard "war ship travel back in time" show, or even a standard war-related show at that. It has strong political bias, strong nationalistic and militaristic influence, a very dangerous main theme, and a lot of limited/misleading/incorrect one-sided view and information.

[wao]

Er... just to clarify, not really making a point (actually, we ought to go and create a Zipang thread for this... anybody?)...

So you mean Zipang so blatantly promoting one side of the story that it's almost misleading in the sense that it is (if I get it correctly) similar to, for example, hero shows where the main guy fights wars and kills a lot of other things and is portrayed as good, there's happy music playing when he wins a battle because it's a good thing etc. etc. without even giving the slightest hint that there is another side to all of this? Where you're supposed to cheer when he's just shot the leader of the baddies? (no information, of course, is given on the baddies. They're just evil.) Or when you have uber-cool mech fights where they just slash down enemies like mad and it's considered a good thing and the whole bridge cheers and so on but there is nothing about the enemy at all? (Maybe like the first part of SEED? No wait, no.)
In other words, blatantly portraying something that is "obviously wrong" as perfectly fine and acceptable - heck, without even considering that there is another side to it, that it is as normal as eating or sleeping and does not have any debatable aspects?

And you fear that when people watch it as an anime, without identifying and knowing it is, according to you, propaganda and therefore not having a clear mindset before watching it, they will be mislead.
For example (just as an example, I'm trying to clarify) Maoist propaganda at that time genuinely influenced a lot of people as they didn't realise it was propaganda, but now when we look at such objects of propaganda, we already know it is propaganda and understand the motive behind it and therefore do not get influenced by it...
You believe that the author's agenda is not subtly placed as something to think about but is rather an assumed premise sort of thing, that it is stuck firmly in there without room for any other sort of thinking?

Is that what you are trying to say?

(Also, do they have Dragon -RON- or Zipang manga in Singapore? I think you know, right? If I'm not wrong you're from Singapore, if not Malaysia, based on the content of some of yoru posts...)

[dreamless]

^ yup, this is what Zipang is IMO, indeed somewhat like Maoist propaganda... actually from what I know some Japanese youths think Kawaguchi Kaiji's works very "hotblood", very "heroic", very "patriotic". It may not be really as aggressive as Maoist propaganda, but it's more subtle and the very good story-telling skill could potentially make it even more dangerous to people who do not realize its true content. It's not as ridiculous as happy music or things, but much more serious and subtle. And the most dangerous part is, if I myelf do not have a better knowledge of what really happened back in WW2, I may well agree with the ideas that the manga tries to convey from the limited information given in the story told by the manga.

Actually the main idea is promoted quite subtly and it seems it leaves some room (or maybe even a lot of room) for thinking, but during the course of the manga it is subtly reinforced that the idea held by the protagonist is correct, the killing of other countries' people and stealing of resouces and land are necessary, they are working for a better dream that everyone can live happily. The idea is very skilfully conveyed to the reader. Actually that WAS supposedly the idea behind Japan's invasion of other countries during the REAL WW2, that they can make everyone live happily. So you now should understand how close this manga's main theme is with the Japanese militarism back in WW2.

For Dragon -RON- and Zipang, I don't know if it's released in Singapore, but Zipang is published in Chinese as 次元舰队 , and Dragon -RON- is published in Chinese as 龙 by 村上纪香 (Murakami Motoka). I got them online

[wao]

I'm surprised they even did a Chinese version of it. I asked as I am highly doubtful they'd publish any sort of Japanese WW2 manga in Singapore of a similar nature (i.e. not GOTF like)...

Now, all I need is... um... direction to the appropriate... whereabouts, yes.

[LynnieS]

I'm now seriously regreting posting initially yesterday... Although, I suspect that this debate would have happened at some point regardless.

There is a fine line between patriotism and nationalism, IMHO - one that is often blurred. I really don't see harm in a manga (and now an anime) that presents an one-sided story. It's no different than any other forms of entertainment that is out there - not to mention some of the more sensationalistic news articles that I've seen.

I still remember reading (and being Chinese, cringing at) the articles describing the behavior of some of the Chinese football audience a few weeks ago during the Asian Cup... It was written about in CNN, good grief.

Anyway... My biggest concern isn't with entertainment - although if education goes belly-up, that will change - but rather with how the history books present the events. A fair and impartial description would be the best, but I would settle for one that is reasonably descriptive. If the manga and anime get people talking about what had happened 60 odd years ago and keep alive the lessons learned, I'm happy.

People being people... Who knows what will happen? Revisionists exist everywhere, it seems. I'm now reading, with interest, the stories about Koguryo and its founding.

Eh, what is needed for these posts to be moved into a "Zipang" thread? Does one need to be created first, or can the mods just split them off manually?

[wao]

I *think* you need to create one and then the mods split off the posts. OR perhaps one of the posts can be made into a thread. Whatever it is, I think that's a good course of action to take as it'd be more appropriate for the discussion, and also, why do we have Fall 2004 Series list, now that all the titles are coming out...

[dreamless]

I guess it still helps for fansub groups to see which titles are not taken yet and which are already over-subbed, and helps them make decisions on which title they want to take.

[Enron]

Oh good lord. So OK, lets assume that Zipang IS Right-Wing, etc. etc.

What does this matter? THIS IS A CARTOON. If you take a CARTOON this seriously on this level, then something is wrong with you.

Oh no, so they meet with leaders and strategize!!! EVIL!!!! In the Zipanga manga, are the characters portrayed:

1) Massacring thousands of innocent Chinese;
2) Massacring thousands of Koreans;
3) Committing Unspeakable atrocities in Nanking;
4) Brutally murdering American and Phillipino troops during the Baatan March?

....and done so in a Positive, happy light? If so, THEN i might see where you have a problem.

Otherwise, you are taking issue that this work doesnt portray the japanese as the RATS you think they were, and are donning your Gleaming White armor, grabbing a lance, and hopping on the steed of INTERNET RIGHTEOUSNESS. Why is this necessary? Why can't this just be a "what if" work of fiction? Why does everything have to have some kind of ulterior motive or evil intent? I guess some people feel the need to always have a "purpose" like this.

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by Enron

Oh good lord. So OK, lets assume that Zipang IS Right-Wing, etc. etc.

What does this matter? THIS IS A CARTOON. If you take a CARTOON this seriously on this level, then something is wrong with you.

Oh no, so they meet with leaders and strategize!!! EVIL!!!! In the Zipanga manga, are the characters portrayed:

1) Massacring thousands of innocent Chinese;
2) Massacring thousands of Koreans;
3) Committing Unspeakable atrocities in Nanking;
4) Brutally murdering American and Phillipino troops during the Baatan March?

....and done so in a Positive, happy light? If so, THEN i might see where you have a problem.

Otherwise, you are taking issue that this work doesnt portray the japanese as the RATS you think they were, and are donning your Gleaming White armor, grabbing a lance, and hopping on the steed of INTERNET RIGHTEOUSNESS. Why is this necessary? Why can't this just be a "what if" work of fiction? Why does everything have to have some kind of ulterior motive or evil intent? I guess some people feel the need to always have a "purpose" like this.

It has the japanese stealing lands and resources of other countries in a "positive light" as you put it. whether it's cartoon, novel, movie, etc. etc. it doesn't matter. The author clearly shows that the main theme of the manga to be that the japanese aren't wrong in invading others and killing people, but are wrong in not evaluating the situation orrectly, in fighting a war that cannot be won. This idea is not a "what if" fiction. To say that invading others and killing civilians are not wrong in themselves is no longer a "what if" fiction. I have no problem with Zipang's "what if" fiction parts.

And I don't like japanese promoting militarism and nationalism, whether it's in manga, novel, cartoon, tv drama, movie, or whatever form of media. I'm not saying anything about internet righteousness, you need to read my posts again. I said I don't like it, I said I think it crossed the line for me, I said I stopped reading the manga. It's you who seem to have some weird problems about me saying my dislike of the manga, and I gave the reason why I dislike it. Seriously, do you like the manga? have you even read it? If no, then what's your stance? People can't go to an internet forum for anime and manga discussions and voice their dislike of a certain anime/manga? It seems you are the one who's just imagining things about a manga you've never read and imagining me of having some kind of ulterior motive/agenda/whatever in your own little fiction and you are trying to play the knight here? Or what?

There are plenty of people not liking plenty of anime/manga for plenty of different reasons. Heck, plenty of movies got censored because of racist and/or sexist content. I'm pretty sure if you write a fictional story strongly supporting racism and/or sexism and post it here, a lot of people will feel offended and the post will get modded. So what's wrong by feeling offended by some strong militarism/nationalism stuff in a manga/anime? Unless if you yourself is a japanese militarism/nationalism supporter of course

Oh, and I thought people in an anime forum should do better than some "THIS IS A CARTOON. If you take a CARTOON this seriously on this level, then something is wrong with you" kind of argument. Anime is no less of a form of media/art/entertainment than movies, novels, tv-drama, etc. etc. I hope you mean "This is a work of fiction like a movie, novel, tv-drama, etc. etc.", not "THIS IS A CARTOON". You should take an anime as seriously as you take a movie, novel, tv-drama, etc. etc. Else I don't think you are worth debating with.

[LordBrian]

Even if those things ARE done in a positive, happy light, I still don't have a problem with it. That's the point I've been trying to get across, my difference in philosophy towards the written word.

Originally Posted by dreamless

I can assure you that the author of the manga is not just using the idea as a tool drive the story along, it's the central theme of the manga! It's the clearly the main idea the author tries to pass through to its readers. That we were not wrong in WW2 invading and killing people, we were wrong in starting a war we can't win. Of course whether you believe me or not, it's for you to decide. But this has a LOT of things to do with the manga itself here, if you don't read the manga, and you don't believe me, and you continue to think that those are just plot devices, tools to drive the story along, while the main theme is something else (obviously you can't possibly know what "something else" is the manga's main theme because you haven't read the manga) in your own fiction, then there's no way to continue the discussion in any logical way.

Incorrect. You've done an excellent job at describing the manga and its tones, and I believe you that the author probably is using manga as his medium for spreading his opinions, worldviews, whatever. For the point that I am trying to argue, I don't need to know or argue the details of the manga.

My point is that you are overly concerned that this particular manga is so unbiased and inflammatory. If people are really as affected by the story as you somehow think they will be, that is not a problem with the manga; that is a problem with the particular society you are concerned with. There is no excuse for prohibiting certain kinds of thoughts to be published, regardless of how insane or wrong you may think them to be. It is when people start taking those ideas to heart that you have a problem, but it is my opinion that people will not do that from this story -- it is your opinion, apparently, that they will, and that is where we disagree. I see nothing further to be said on the subject.

[dreamless]

okay, please answer this, if a movie with strong racism theme is made, is it wrong for people to feel offended by it and criticize the movie for its racism theme? And is it wrong for cinemas refusing showing this racist movie?

And if I feel offended by a manga filled with nationalism/militarism, is there anything wrong about that? The main point is not whether I feel people will take this to heart or not. The main point is that I think the nationalism/militarism contained in this manga is so bad that I think people should stay away from it. It's pretty normal to see people post things like "nah, this anime is bad, don't watch it" kind of posts right? What I'm trying to say is about the same. I'm saying that Zipang contains so much nationalism/militarism stuff that I dislike those stuff so much. And I like the Dragon -RON- manga a lot. So I recommend the Draong -RON- manga and discourage people from Zipang. It's like, basically, if you feel one manga is good and the other is bad then you'll tell your friends to get the good one and stay from the bad one. If there's a racist movie, I'll tell people to stay away from that movie. If there's a japanese militarist/nationalist anime, I'll tell people to stay away from that anime. Simple?

PS: unbiased? Zipang is super biased if you ask me!

Oh, about the Sims story, it's different, it's completely fictional. I can tolerate completely fictional works, albeit I won't like it if it goes over the top to complete ridiculousness (for example the later part of Silent Service).

Okay, now I think more about it, I guess trying to be unbiased and have a somewhat balanced view of something and give credit where it's due is not the best way to express an opinion, then let's start all over and try this :

I think Zipang worths as much as a piece of racism garbage, neo-Nazi ads, those "revised" Japanese history books, some Japanese militarism/nationalism propaganda (which it is), so if you want to read/watch it, I can't stop you, but if you ask my opinion, I'd say better stay away from it and let it rot in the lowest level of hell.

So does it sound better after I rephrase it this way?

[LynnieS]

One "Politics and Zipang" thread has been made, everyone.

[ShikaShika]

Now I really want someone to sub it, so I can make up my own mind about it.

[ubb]

After reading dreamless's post, I have now learned that it is okay to be biased as long as you don't put your thoughts into publication.

[chamelean75]

is anyone subbing Gakuen Alice?

[iluid]

Originally Posted by chamelean75

is anyone subbing Gakuen Alice?

Go to the first post on the first page of this thread. Click the link to find the answer.

[chamelean75]

yay, good to know that gakuen alice will be subbed. hmm will anyone be subbing Legend of Duo, according to the who is subbing what website, it has yet to be picked up. The animation in promo pic on the legend of duo site looks really good.