2011-01-07, 23:04 | Link #21 |
Uguu~
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Canada
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Didn't 'moe' came to be when it described the act of 'inner passion being lit/growing', which is what the word actually meant in Japanese, the act of 'budding'.
To follow that logic, anything, girl/guy/thing that can provoke that feeling would be considered 'moe'. It doesn't have to be cute, weak or adorable. Boy's Love can be 'moe' to Female Otaku just as much as Tsunderes are 'moe' for me, or anyone who likes Tsunderes. I do agree that moe is so overused nowadays, just like epic, legendary, hardcore to name a few.
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2011-01-08, 04:45 | Link #22 |
Onee-Chan Power~!
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: In this reality (A.K.A. Colorado, U.S.A.)
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Is Tsukasa from Lucky Star a stereotypical moe (clumsy, short "cute" hair, big spirit)? Lucky Star has a lot of stereotype character types from animes and references.
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2011-01-08, 09:41 | Link #23 | |
Me at work
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And then there's the people that think moe has to be sexualised,just look something like this post , I havn't replied because I don't want to derail the original topic,it seems like an honest misconception more than anything.
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2011-01-08, 10:04 | Link #24 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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*Used in the "proper" sense of the term. |
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2011-01-08, 12:54 | Link #25 | |
Uguu~
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Canada
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As for the drawstyle argument, a lot of eroge and galge nowadays are using the cuter, big eyes, borderline loli style of drawing, or the 'moe'-style. The style itself is not the 'moe', but the elements that make up the drawing style is.
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2011-01-08, 13:04 | Link #26 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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For an American/French version of 'moe', watch "Despicable Me" and observe the 3 girls. The smallest one in particular would have almost any viewer who called themselves human dripping moe. And then she layers it herself by going hyper 'moe' over a unicorn plushie at one point: "Its so fluffy I could just DIE!!!!" (high pitched squeak)
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Last edited by Vexx; 2011-01-08 at 13:15. |
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2011-01-08, 16:55 | Link #27 |
A novice to anime
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Nor*Cal, Rokkenjima, Illusionary World
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Okay so it's cuteness??? Or personal traits??? I'm still confused, the wikipedia definition is not clear, plus I only recently learned of this word.
(Btw why did someone tag my thread as "troll"? This is a serious question.)
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2011-01-08, 18:21 | Link #28 | ||||
Uguu~
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Canada
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What OutFoxZero described above would be what is 'moe' to him, 'youthful' and 'feminine trap' are two traits that he would considered 'moe', and others that he did not mention. To me, 'youthful' would be one but not 'feminine trap'. Everyone's moe is different, but as long as it makes you warm and fuzzy inside it is considered 'moe'. IE, a matured seductive dressed character with a tsundere personality is still a 'moe' character because she has several 'moe'-traits: Tsundere and sexy. (One could even argue maturity can be 'moe' if she is quiet/refined) I'm not saying feminine traps are not moe, it's just not moe to me. Remember, there are no definite requirements for a character to be 'moe' as long as it display some character traits/physical traits that would incite the feeling.
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Last edited by HurricaneHige; 2011-01-08 at 18:41. Reason: Added stuff |
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2011-01-08, 18:45 | Link #29 | |
A novice to anime
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Nor*Cal, Rokkenjima, Illusionary World
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Okay thanks. I just didn't understand your definition of "budding" at first. I problem I guess is that I'm looking for a perfect english word that is a translation of the world "moe" but it appears such as word does not exist. I've only just recently heard of this word and wanted to know what it meant as numerous people are telling me the anime contains "moe". Thanks for your help. I think that last definition helped.
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2011-01-08, 18:55 | Link #30 | ||
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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The problem right now is that the term is thrown around at everything by the supposed people who know what "moe" is. IMO the broad use of the term has more to do so with the people involved in the moe community than it does with people berating shows for being moe because they have a cute girl here or there. Quote:
I think it is clear to me that people will never be satisfied with how the term is used, and they probably should discard it.
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2011-01-08, 21:41 | Link #31 | |
A novice to anime
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Nor*Cal, Rokkenjima, Illusionary World
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I like your definition, it's easier than wikipedia's to understand.
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2011-01-09, 02:50 | Link #32 | ||||
Pretentious moe scholar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 37
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The "youthful" bit is (to me, at least) implied by the "blossoming" connotations of the word moe. I just brought it up to demonstrate the difference between youthful and young characters - Matsuri Shihou (Sola) and Sanae Furukawa (Clannad) are youthful but not young. Quote:
Otome Youkai Zakuro is actually a good example of a show that is moe without a moe artstyle - the major girls are all examples of major moe archetypes (very well executed ones, I might add), but the show uses a lot of shoujo style artwork and stylistic cues. Quote:
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That said, I have gradually added associated characteristics to my definition of moe in an attempt to make it at least somewhat specific. As it stands, my definition is something like this: "A passion for a youthful female character, not necessarily sexual in nature and usually stemming from her being adorable or charming."
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2011-01-09, 03:14 | Link #34 | |
Uguu~
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Canada
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I understand your usage of the word youthful, but it is also why I disagree. A character does not have to be youthful to be moe. Meaning, she/he doesn't have to look like a young person (even if she's 100 years old) to be moe. Loli and youth are moe-traits and not definition, just like tsundere are moe-traits, but a non-tsundere can still be moe. Best example I could think of would be Ryoko from Yakushiji Ryōko no Kaiki Jikenbo. She is beautiful but not young, she's 27 and looked 27. She's still moe because of she's beautiful and her tsundere behaviour. The term 'moe' is so general hence the difficulty to properly define it. If I may, I would like to edit your definition just a little: "An affectionate feeling for a character, but not necessarily sexual in nature."
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2011-01-09, 13:19 | Link #35 | ||
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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To me it comes off as an attempt to deflect any and all criticism to their brand since every time someone says something about moe, they either say "Well that's not really moe," or , "That's only a certain type of moe." It cannot both be a very strictly confined and broad definition at the same time. When I discuss something like the genre of horror, we have a FAIRLY good idea of what we are talking about. Genres are already broad enough, and if people who promote the so called "moe" genre want to be taken seriously, they have to allow grounded criticisms stick to it, otherwise it is a useless term. Sure each genre might have a little bit different spin on some areas, and there are nuances wherever you go, but the basic core idea is there. Right now, the moe community simply doesn't want to accept what exactly this core idea is, and as far as I can see, there is no reason to respect such an inadequate term. IMO, it makes it a little hard to discuss the topic, and that's why the term I said should be discarded since one seemingly can't criticize it in any form. It might be better to just go back to the days before the word moe ever came about in mass popularity.
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2011-01-09, 13:20 | Link #36 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
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from what i undretsand:
if u like girls with glasses, then girls with glasses are moe for u if u like girls in school uniform, then girls in school uniform are moe for u if u like girls with bossy attitude, then girls with bossy attitude are moe for u a moe character should be one that has the elements u like or attract u |
2011-01-09, 13:30 | Link #37 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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That is where many western fans, be they be pro-moe or anti-moe, fall off the wagon. It isn't an inherent attribute of the character - the character has traits that invoke moe in some viewers. Practical upshot in the industry: the viewers with the biggest wallets tend to drive the creation of characters that invoke moe in them and like any fad the producers go to the well too often.
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2011-01-09, 13:41 | Link #38 | |
Uguu~
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Canada
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I also use the term 'moe anime' to dismiss anime often. The context though its because the creators/designer designed the story and characters that cater to the largest or most popular 'moe'-traits. For example, loli, cat ears, tsundere are some of the traits that are massively popular among anime otakus. If an anime is designing characters and story with that in mind, and the main selling point IS the two, then I classify that under 'moe-anime' and drop it before it hurts my brain. You can have moe characters in an anime, but if it is the sole selling point then the anime becomes a waste of time. (i seem to have gone off on a tangent...)
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2011-01-09, 14:00 | Link #39 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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A large reason for a good deal of anime is that it appeals to the closet-otaku salaryman who just wants to relax and be nostalgic about simpler times (that may never have really existed but so what?). They're the ones with the wallets...
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2011-01-09, 15:52 | Link #40 | |||
Pretentious moe scholar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 37
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So yes, there are moe varieties in which "mature" plays a role, and characters who look and act 27 still fit. I do think there's an upper bound on perceived age somewhere, though - IMO there's a certain "vitality" that a character has to have to be moe. I still hold that moe is the result of adorable or charming (mature and playful is charming) traits though. Quote:
Here's my question: do we actually have a good idea what we're talking about when we talk about moe as a "genre"? Let's take a look at three moe shows: K-On!, EF, and Ga-rei Zero. The first is a slice of life comedy, the second a romance drama, and the third an action-drama. All three contain recognizably moe characters and artwork. Now, I rarely see criticisms of EF or Ga-rei. I do see two criticisms commonly leveled against K-On!: that it idolizes stupid and/or unassertive girls, and that the characters are essentially laser targeted at certain moe traits to their detriment as well rounded characters. Those are valid criticisms of K-On!, and if I want to defend that show, I'd have to come up with some counter-points (which I can do if anyone is interested, but probably a bit off topic here). I do not think they're particularly valid criticisms of EF or Ga-rei Zero. Truth be told, some criticisms of one show can be applied to the genre as a whole. For example, I believe that the preference many moe fans have for "weird and zany" girls leads many creators to create moe characters that are as much caricatures as characters. "Idolizes stupid and/or unassertive girls" I don't agree with as a criticism of the entire genre though - first, because there's a lot of Tohsakas, Senjougaharas, and Kurenekos out there, second, because I think a lot of moe fans appreciate the charm of characters like Yui or Ayu without idolizing them. Basically, if you want me to allow a criticism to stick to the moe genre, you do have to show its pretty broad based. Arguments like "moe generally involves a sexual element because Key originally made porn games and Key is very popular" aren't really going to cut it because the evidence is too narrow (and debatable - what made Key popular?). Quote:
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