(L) Girls und Panzer

[Panzerklein]

They're same material, just difference in timeline, Little Army happen before main story. So they has Rescure team to save any tank crew who are in danger. Unless you proof that Little Army is total different from main story.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by willx

Sorry are we reading and watching different material?]

The Little Army manga is a prequel manga of sorts to the anime, but I don't think it has been confirmed as being canon. It doesn't seem to match up with Miho's comments in the anime with never having had real friends and never liking Senshado or tanks before coming to Oarai.

[Panzerklein]

In chapter 6, Miho don't like Senshado because Maho confirm she order to shoot the rescure tank and that is Nishizumi-style of Senshado, so she disappointed on Senshado.

[MarkS00N]

Originally Posted by Panzerklein

Westener? I'm an Asian, more correct Vietnamese, history of Vietnam is thousand years of war between with other empires and civil wars itself. The Trịnh-Nguyễn era's Warlords War is even longer and bloodier than Japanese's Warring States era with millions soldiers died (more death than Vietnam War era, even if include 2 million Vietnamese died in Japanese invasion of WW2 - but this don't make Vietnamese hate Japanese like Korean because they are too familiar with it). The system of tradition warring clans in Vietnam is not lesser than Japan despite they're no longer exist under Communist rule.

Instead of West vs East mindset, it more like Martial Art as Sport thus Sport as Game vs Martial Art as Ideology...
If you keep thinking sport as game, you won't understand Sumeragi way of thinking...
As such, unless Sumeragi willing to see Senshado as game, Sumeragi won't see your point...

[Panzerklein]

If Senshado not a sport but a pure martial arts, they will use real ammunation not the special ones to make for just Senshado in order keep safe of tank crew. Just use real ammunation, flamethrower, Molotov cocktail, hand-to-hand, suicidal tanks to destroy all of enemy.

[Random Wanderer]

Anyway, can we all put the issue with respect for life aside? I actually wasn't trying to bring that up again. I argued it for a bit because it ended up coming up, but I shouldn't have, and I apologize. My complaint against Shiho at this point is that she's become so narrow-minded that she can't recognize that Miho is following the true tenants of the Nishizumi creed. There are many things one can say about Shiho, but when she fails in the one thing that is supposed to be her master field, I can grant her no excuse. She had no understanding of the tactics Miho used, and what does that say about the person who's supposed to be the greatest shenshado master of her time? She cannot recognize that Miho is moving forward and winning victories: the core principles of the Nishizumi creed. She is narrow-minded, blinding herself to anything that doesn't fall within her own rigid concept of what the Nishizumi school means.

[willx]

Originally Posted by MarkS00N

Instead of West vs East mindset, it more like Martial Art as Sport thus Sport as Game vs Martial Art as Ideology...
If you keep thinking sport as game, you won't understand Sumeragi way of thinking...
As such, unless Sumeragi willing to see Senshado as game, Sumeragi won't see your point...

Hm, why is it so hard for people to imagine that someone can be two things simultaneously, here it is graphically:

Spectrum:
<----------------------Severity of Situation / Potential Risk of Life---------------------->
<--------------------Stupidity / Courageousness of Miho's Actions--------------------->
================== Bad Senshado Practitioner? ==================

Depending on the danger of the situation with regards to loss of life, from the viewpoint of a responsible and courageous citizen and human being, Miho's actions may or may not be seen as admirable. That however is not necessarily related to whether she acted appropriately as a practitioner of Senshado.

@Panzerklein -- There's a slight nuance in this discussion people are missing. Logic dictates that Shiho knows the rules and knows what is or isn't acceptable or is or isn't expected as a practitioner of Senshado. We do not. In this vacuum people are putting forth their own value expectations on a situation. People are saying: "I believe this is or isn't acceptable behaviour for a human being in martial art or sport" and applying it to another world while lacking information. Did Miho say she ever hated her mother? Or did she hate Senshado? That might be telling about this world's lore that people are making broad assumptions about.

tl;dr -- Miho may be a courageous upstanding citizen that we would all want as our neighbour. She could still be a failure as a Senshado-ka.

Reply hazy, ask again later

[MarkS00N]

Originally Posted by Panzerklein

If Senshado not a sport but a pure martial arts, they will use real ammunation not the special ones to make for just Senshado in order keep safe of tank crew. Just use real ammunation, flamethrower, Molotov cocktail, hand-to-hand, suicidal tanks to destroy all of enemy.

No, that will be war but not Martial Arts...

I'll try another explanation:
You view Senshado as game, thus for you it is an entertainment for the player where the loser can participate in the next battle with a lighthearted feeling...

Sumeragi view Senshado as an ideology (wait, it isn't the correct term... Well, let just use it for now), where the way the participant do Senshado is the same way they do their live, thus a defeat mean their life all this long has been wrong which equal with lived a shameful life, which mean an honorless life...
It isn't about winning in the end, it is about being right...
Win is merely a requirement to be accepted as right, but on the other hand you can't lose...

EDIT:
@willx
Well, I can, and thus I try to explain how the two extreme spectrum actually see thing...
As for now, they appear to can't understand the other point of view...

[Tak]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Spoiler for Song name:

PANZERLIED

Not surprised, but I am nonetheless filled with glee

After all, the song is so iconic it just has to be included. I bet its Black Forest's school song, but I wonder if Maho will be singing it, or maybe both Miho & Maho...

- Tak

[Kamui04]

Originally Posted by MarkS00N

Instead of West vs East mindset, it more like Martial Art as Sport thus Sport as Game vs Martial Art as Ideology...
If you keep thinking sport as game, you won't understand Sumeragi way of thinking...
As such, unless Sumeragi willing to see Senshado as game, Sumeragi won't see your point...

Thanks for your comment, my original post was talking specifically on how Japanese view martial arts sports. And the spectrum of ideologies on how they should be practiced. But seems people are misinterpreting the reference.

Originally Posted by Panzerklein

If Senshado not a sport but a pure martial arts, they will use real ammunation not the special ones to make for just Senshado in order keep safe of tank crew. Just use real ammunation, flamethrower, Molotov cocktail, hand-to-hand, suicidal tanks to destroy all of enemy.

And that's where we are all disagreeing.

Like MarkS00N said, that would be War and not martial arts.

Going by your reasoning Kendo shouldn't be using bamboo shinais but real swords. The difference is in the mentality of this martial arts as a sport and what can or can't be done with a Shinai without going so far as killing someone.

Just like how people see Judo, Jujitsu and other variants. Want it as safe as Olympic and modern Judo, but try to be as intelligent as possible with the modern rules and moves? Some people see it watered down, and lost the spirit and want it to go for old jujitsu moves with broken bones and dislocated joints? Or maybe for some, martial arts only mean breaking the opponent's neck, but we aren't talking about this one, right? Right after the Olympic games there was a lot of controversy in Japan about what modern Judo should be.

And if you have ever taken martial arts with different instructors you can see a glimpse of this clashing of ideologies. And Shiho is the representation of one kind, the one favoring traditionalism, old school brutality yet narrow-mindedness as to what constitutes the essence of that sport.

[Ithekro]

Maho does't seem to bring things up a lot, but her second seems hellbent to wipe out Miho's "heresy". The question is of course, what heresy has she done, why is it a "stain" to the Nishizumi style, and why does the second feel obligted to do the deed when her commander seems to be maintaining a professional (if cold) appearance.

I would not that none of the other schools are as cold as Black Forest (even Pravda).

Miho said that she never knew that the sport could be fun before she started doing this with her new friends outside of Black Forest. This suggests that Black Forest (or perhaps just her own family) is cold and regemented so there is no joy in any of this. And considering how the other teams and the spectator behave, I think that is something Shiho is missing, and perhaps what Maho sees in her little sister.

But the true mystery in this family at this point is really Maho. She's said so little and emoted pretty much nothing that we have no idea what she's thinking outside of victory. We can't even tell what she really thinks of her sister or mother in this dispute aside from making the point that Miho is a formatible opponent (I guess that because she takes the threat of Miho and her school seriously and watches each battle intently, rather than dismissibely like her mother and vice commander).

[4Tran]

It's a pity we won't see the end of this show until March, but it's been a much better run than I've expected so far. I expected a joke show more in the vein of Strike Witches, with lip service played to the tanks and most of actually entertaining parts being comedy hijinx. Tanks, especially realistic ones, have never been a very highly respected subject in anime so the level of attention paid to them has been a bit of a shock.

Episode 10 continues on this trend, building up nicely for the big finale. There hasn't been anywhere near enough time to devote to the huge cast, but the bits we got were pretty good - the Kelly's Heroes insert being particularly noteworthy. I also appreciate the Porsche Tiger being shown in all its glory.

The only thing I'm disappointed in is that Black Forest is fielding a late-war heavy list of German tanks. It'd have been nice to see a bit more early-war tanks and have them demonstrate their dominance through superior tactics or doctrine. Their lineup also puts paid to the earlier claim of Saunders being a favorite because of their wealth. 20 Shermans isn't going to matchup very well at all.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

But my problem is that she pretty much guessed what Black Forest would do: take the shortest path and attack. So how could she be surprised at how fast they were intercepted? Or what, did she think her sister would make a beeline for Ooarai's starting position and only then pursue them?

I think that Miho has been consistently portrayed as being not very good with general tactics. Every fight has seen one of her plans fall flat in avoidable ways. However, she shows a good ability to innovate and come up with new ad hoc plans (the exception being Hana coming up with the plan against Saunders), and that's carried Ooarai this far.

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Still behind on episodes (other things have distracted me), but I've seen reviews of them. On a scale of 1 to airstrike, how badly are our girls outgunned in this final match?

It's bad; probably even worse than when they only had six AFVs to go up against Pravda. All of the Black Forest AFVs can knock out every Ooarai AFV at combat ranges except for Team Lion's Tiger. Conversely, most of the Ooarai AFVs will have trouble penetrating Black Forest vehicles from the front unless they're at very close range (and sometimes that still won't be enough).

However, the odds aren't as bad as the pure firepower-armor comparison would suggest. Black Forest decided to field a lot of over-engineered heavy weight AFVs, and these have a tendency to break down (as seen with Team Lion). Furthermore, Black Forest is clearly on the offensive, and that greatly limits the 6-7 self-propelled guns they have in their lineup. Their lack of a turret means that they have severely limited firing arcs at close ranges (25-degrees to either side), and that it will take longer for them to lay their guns after moving. These SPGs are great on the defensive where they can fire from prepared positions, but they're far more vulnerable in mobile battles.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Black Forest does have a lot of TDs, but they've also got those ten Panthers, which... ouch.

Oarai also made an interesting conversion of mobility to firepower by converting the 38(t) into a Hetzer. The Hetz has a much better chance of being able to knock out a Black Forest opponent than the 38(t) does, but at the same time will be much more dependent on positioning since it doesn't have a turret.

I don't see Maho allowing the flag tank to be separated and fall to ambush as happened to Pravda. She has more than enough strength to use most of the (ten!) Panthers for reconnaissance in force or to drive them into the anvil formed by all of those TDs.

Saunders gave up their numerical advantage to be fair, Pravda allowed themselves to be split up (and got Surprise Student Counciled), it remains to be seen whether Maho will make a "vanity" mistake.

[Ithekro]

With the Black Forest lineup, I'd expect Saunders to be fielding a large number of Sherman Fireflys and M26 Pershings, M36 tank destroyers, in additon to late model M4 Shermans.

Again, we don't have the rules for this sport really. We have safety guildlines, but we don't have any idea on how the tanks are matched up or the limits to numbers or types within those numbers.

The highest ratio we have so far is 2.5:1 with both the Black Forest and Pravda fights. If the rules are only ratios and money (and manpower) are not issues for Saunders, I could see Black Forest fielding 20 tanks and Saunders fielding 50 tanks.

[FRS]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Maho does't seem to bring things up a lot, but her second seems hellbent to wipe out Miho's "heresy". The question is of course, what heresy has she done, why is it a "stain" to the Nishizumi style, and why does the second feel obligted to do the deed when her commander seems to be maintaining a professional (if cold) appearance.
...

I wonder if it's something along the line that in the Nishizumi Ryu point of view, you can not expect to win in Sensha do by being soft, be it on yourself, on your teammate or your opponent, if Miho manage to win with her ragtag team, that would simply invalidate that point of view.

[maplehurry]

I predict MC's team to lose, barely.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst

Black Forest does have a lot of TDs, but they've also got those ten Panthers, which... ouch.

Panthers may be scary, but they'll still lose a lot of their effectiveness on the offensive. American Shermans have been known to give better than they take in that kind of circumstance. And if Ooarai can keep the combat to short ranges, they have a decent chance of knocking out a bunch of AFVs.

Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst

I don't see Maho allowing the flag tank to be separated and fall to ambush as happened to Pravda. She has more than enough strength to use most of the (ten!) Panthers for reconnaissance in force or to drive them into the anvil formed by all of those TDs.

It's an interesting tactical dilemma. Keep the flag tank tucked away, and it might be discovered and taken out away from the main force. Keep it close to the main force, and it could take a lucky hit, or opposing AFVs can fire on it under normal combat. I favor the former approach, but if Maho's action matches her rhetoric, she'll take the more aggressive one. We've got three months to think up scenarios!

Originally Posted by Ithekro

The highest ratio we have so far is 2.5:1 with both the Black Forest and Pravda fights. If the rules are only ratios and money (and manpower) are not issues for Saunders, I could see Black Forest fielding 20 tanks and Saunders fielding 50 tanks.

The show stated that the limit is supposed to be 20 AFVs in the final. If numbers are Saunders' main advantage, what were they planning to do against Pravda and Black Forest?

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

If numbers are Saunders' main advantage, what were they planning to do against Pravda and Black Forest?

Let the Fireflys, Pershings, and Super Pershings roll.

[Ithekro]

M36 tank destroyers with 90mm cannon. With post-war folding armored roof kit for safety. (2 of these are still in service with Taiwan and were used in combat into the 1980s and 1990s (Iran-Iraqi War and Bosnia)

[Chiaki_chan]

Originally Posted by D-Joe

9. カチューシャ
10. カチューシャ

These are Katyusha

thanks you =)