Muv-Luv Franchise - Military Tactics, History, & Geo-Politics

[LystAP]

Originally Posted by Asuras

So it's more or less not that they don't see us as life, and more that they are forced to not care.

Yes and No; They don't see us as life; however, they are forced not to consider the possibility that we or they would ever be considered life. They care about life, the Superior justifies its' actions in the end of Alternative in that the BETA are not actually taking any "lives" while harvesting the planet; it is highly likely that the BETA's creators based their civilization on Carbon-based technology, just as we have on Silicon and other materials.

Can't have their toasters or other instruments asking if they are living beings, and potentially rebelling; so they just program their own "law of robotics" into their "tools" to keep them in their place.

[DoomRavager]

Originally Posted by Asuras

So it's more or less not that they don't see us as life, and more that they are forced to not care.

It's more that they have a very strict, very rigid definition of life, and humanity not matching one of the fundamental tenets i.e. "life is based on silicon, carbon-based is impossible" means that humanity is excluded from "life".

In fact they're so rigid that one of the "evidence" they provide for humans (along with all the rest of Earth life I guess, since they're all carbon based) not being life is "By our programming we cannot operate on planets that have life. Since we can operate on this planet, that means this planet does not have life".

[Ryuudou]

If only someone could give me the motivation to read the two ones before alternate ;_;

[Silvance]

Originally Posted by DoomRavager

Right then. So apparently courtesy of some nosey parker guest who took it to /m/ (thanks, whoever you are),

Operation Swaraj involved sending Mindseekers into the Bhopal Hive. I guess the locals were forced to be cannon fodder to get the Esper corps access, or maybe they just objected to foreign military presence on their soil or something.

Saw that post too in the thread. haha.

So, it seems I wasn't looking hard enough. Thanks for posting it here as well.

Wow. So A-01 was also involved in Alternative III? That's a shocking revelation. Another reason why their numbers significantly reduced by 2001. I wonder how many of them survived while escorting the espers to the hive. If UN ignored India's sovereignty or had them cooperate by giving so much promises that it will succeed... I guess its not surprising that they're not very pleased in the end considering how Alternative III failed... even more so if they made so much sacrifice.

[grevierr]

I think it would be safer to say that the Superiors are at least of AI level, since they will need to have autonomy and adaptivity of a sort to overcome the obstructions they will face exploring space. They just have a little code preventing them from logically thinking they are individually intelligent beings as well.

Think of the Terminator scenario, all they have to do to prevent it is to hard code it into the matrix that artificial life made of inorganics cannot be considered intelligent, and must obey intelligent life, or humans.

However, as carbon based replication of living beings are more vulnerable to mutations and change, some changes in the pattern of thinking might be possible.

At the end of MLA, the direct conversation with the superior lead to it asking to prove that the organic remains of a human can exhibit intelligence. Unfortunately emotions got into the way.

Possibly at some time in the future, another attempt might be made, with clear definitions of death, life, the universe and everything.

Originally Posted by Silvance

Saw that post too in the thread. haha.

So, it seems I wasn't looking hard enough. Thanks for posting it here as well.

Wow. So A-01 was also involved in Alternative III? That's a shocking revelation. Another reason why their numbers significantly reduced by 2001. I wonder how many of them survived while escorting the espers to the hive. If UN ignored India's sovereignty or had them cooperate by giving so much promises that it will succeed... I guess its not surprising that they're not very pleased in the end considering how Alternative III failed... even more so if they made so much sacrifice.

Possibly AIII A-01 were almost wiped out, except for Kasumi and her pilot?. I believe I read in the manga that Yuuko rescued her, but not certain if she took part in the operation before. Did any esper that went down survive AIII? Also it was stated that Yuuko more or less built A-01 from the ground up, so either she was in charge during Alt III, or she took over after that.

[LystAP]

Originally Posted by DoomRavager

It's more that they have a very strict, very rigid definition of life, and humanity not matching one of the fundamental tenets i.e. "life is based on silicon, carbon-based is impossible" means that humanity is excluded from "life".

In fact they're so rigid that one of the "evidence" they provide for humans (along with all the rest of Earth life I guess, since they're all carbon based) not being life is "By our programming we cannot operate on planets that have life. Since we can operate on this planet, that means this planet does not have life".

They're right in a way, any competent intelligent life-form would probably be more than a match for a bunch of mining machines.

[Angrypokstick]

Originally Posted by potchip

Possibly A-01 were almost wiped out, except for Kasumi and her pilot?. I believe I read in the manga that Yuuko rescued her, but not certain if she took part in the operation before. Did any esper that went down survive AIII? Also it was stated that Yuuko more or less built A-01 from the ground up, so either she was in charge during Alt III, or she took over after that.

The only thing we know from alternative III is that out of all the esper send to a hive only 6% returned. I don't believe there are concrete evidence that Kasumi ever conducted a Hive infiltration, her generation was too young especially kasumi being one of the the youngest one in her generation, before the whole Project was cancelled and the surviving Espers reassigned and such.
I do beleive it was mentioned somewhere that Cryska was one of the 6% that survived the hive infiltration. Could be wrong about this one though.

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by Angrypokstick

The only thing we know from alternative III is that out of all the esper send to a hive only 6% returned. I don't believe there are concrete evidence that Kasumi ever conducted a Hive infiltration, her generation was too young especially kasumi being one of the the youngest one in her generation, before the whole Project was cancelled and the surviving Espers reassigned and such.
I do beleive it was mentioned somewhere that Cryska was one of the 6% that survived the hive infiltration. Could be wrong about this one though.

So basically we have an untold number of espers running around somewhere? That would fit some info I read about...

[Silvance]

Originally Posted by grevierr

So basically we have an untold number of espers running around somewhere? That would fit some info I read about...

No exact number. We only know three characters so far, and two of them were way too young back in 1992 to be able to participate or even be of use in Operation Swaraj so they're excluded from the 6%.

heh... I guess the fanfiction writers will have a field day about this one.

[Wild Goose]

Oh, I've already got fanfic ideas in my head for the SE Asian theater, including Australian fallback plans in case BETA make it out of where they're bottled up, which boil down to "Evacuate across the outbsck in the opposite direction from BETA and nuke the buggers when they cross the desert."

Then there's the likelihood that with the Australian Navy involved in securing the seas, I'd expect ANZAC to be in the Thai front, perhaps staging from Butterwoth AB (RAAF used to have Mirage squadrons stationed there during the Cold War, btw).

[grevierr]

Actually there is one thing I was hoping to find out in the anime. How do BETA communicate with each other? And what do they sound like? In the VN, its rather difficult to find out, since all you get is NOM NOM NOM or SLASH, BLAM, BOOM.

We need some Steve Irwin fellow to walk into a hive, interviewing the different species of BETA in their natural habitat.

[LystAP]

Originally Posted by grevierr

Actually there is one thing I was hoping to find out in the anime. How do BETA communicate with each other? And what do they sound like? In the VN, its rather difficult to find out, since all you get is NOM NOM NOM or SLASH, BLAM, BOOM.

We need some Steve Irwin fellow to walk into a hive, interviewing the different species of BETA in their natural habitat.

I think they communicate with each other in the same way our computers communicate with each other. That's probably why their Laser-classes are so accurate, and why they always avoid friendly fire.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Silvance

heh... I guess the fanfiction writers will have a field day about this one.

I did have an OC in the Foreign Legion, I have considered to make her an esper to explain how she managed to survive for so long, knowing that at one point of her service, her squad had been down to the last woman, herself, and redone three times in one month. Yes, she have a reputation to bring misfortune around her.

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by LystAP

I think they communicate with each other in the same way our computers communicate with each other. That's probably why their Laser-classes are so accurate, and why they always avoid friendly fire.

Well then, next time one opens its mouth, lets look for a Blue Tooth.

[Netto Azure]

Originally Posted by grevierr

Actually there is one thing I was hoping to find out in the anime. How do BETA communicate with each other? And what do they sound like? In the VN, its rather difficult to find out, since all you get is NOM NOM NOM or SLASH, BLAM, BOOM.

I would think that based on the various hypothesis thrown around in the VN, the "Primary objective" Reactor/Computer telepathically sends orders to various hives and then those hives relay information to BETA on the ground. I doubt it's using the Electromagnetic spectrum though, because otherwise humans would receive such frequencies and analyzed them in Alternative I.

We need some Steve Irwin fellow to walk into a hive, interviewing the different species of BETA in their natural habitat.

Sig Quote worthy. (b")b

[LystAP]

Originally Posted by Netto Azure

I would think that based on the various hypothesis thrown around in the VN, the "Primary objective" Reactor/Computer telepathically sends orders to various hives and then those hives relay information to BETA on the ground. I doubt it's using the Electromagnetic spectrum though, because otherwise humans would receive such frequencies and analyzed them in Alternative I.



Sig Quote worthy. (b")b

One thing must be noted, is that in the Muvluv Unlimited/Alternative universe, up until Takeru talks to the Superior, humanity pretty much presumes the BETA to be a intelligent independent life-form, despite the BETA themselves not believing themselves so. All of the previous Alternative projects hinted towards this, but the truth remained shrouded until Alternative IV was implemented. Even then, we don't know if Takeru managed to deliver this important piece of information afterwards.

Once you stop seeing the BETA as a alien species behaving among similar lines as other "living" beings, and more as machines, which they are, they'll probably become far easier to manage.

[grevierr]

@LystAP

Relax, its a semi joke topic. We have covered military tech, politics, geography, physics. Just wanted to cover some lifestyle. Even machines have the machine spirits you know.

Let me start the ball rolling.

Lets follow Ste-vu Ar-ein as he attempts to infiltrate the nature habitat of the often misunderstood BETA species.

<<Records recovered from an data pack attached to a beacon located near Evensk Hive>>

G'd day , I'm *Ste-vu Ear-ein* (translation unclear, approximate phonics attached), and todae we are gonna be looking at some of the most deadliest critters in thee U.S.S.R.. I'm here taeday in the South of the Kolyma Range, which is the start of our advanture and journey to search for the natural habitats of the enemies of the human race, the common BETA.

[SolarAquarion]

Originally Posted by grevierr

@LystAP

Relax, its a semi joke topic. We have covered military tech, politics, geography, physics. Just wanted to cover some lifestyle. Even machines have the machine spirits you know.

Let me start the ball rolling.

Lets follow Ste-vu Ar-ein as he attempts to infiltrate the nature habitat of the often misunderstood BETA species.

<<Records recovered from an data pack attached to a beacon located near Evensk Hive>>

G'd day , I'm *Ste-vu Ear-ein* (translation unclear, approximate phonics attached), and todae we are gonna be looking at some of the most deadliest critters in thee U.S.S.R.. I'm here taeday in the South of the Kolyma Range, which is the start of our advanture and journey to search for the natural habitats of the enemies of the human race, the common BETA.

Here we have a tank class BETA lets see if it makes a sound "WWWAAAGGGHHHH"

[LystAP]

Originally Posted by Xezexal

Here we have a tank class BETA lets see if it makes a sound "WWWAAAGGGHHHH"

It isn't any fun if it ends that quick.

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by grevierr

Lets follow Ste-vu Ar-ein as he attempts to infiltrate the nature habitat of the often misunderstood BETA species.

<<Records recovered from an data pack attached to a beacon located near Evensk Hive>>

G'd day , I'm *Ste-vu Ear-ein* (translation unclear, approximate phonics attached), and todae we are gonna be looking at some of the most deadliest critters in thee U.S.S.R.. I'm here in the South of the Kolyma Range, which is the start of our advanture and journey to search for the natural habitats of the enemies of the human race, the common BETA.

Now since these BETAs don't shoot their own mates, I've prepared a little something out of this old purple dino costume I found, by adding on this old accordion and sticking on this glove on that end there, added some mushrooms and a torn, splashed on some grey, and hey, makes me look like one of them!


Now one of the things I've learnt as an animal specialist is they recognise their own by scent ya'know, so lets observe this lone critter down there. Its a Venator, with its massive lower body.

Though its speed is slower than the other types, its still quick enough to strike, and it has the best detection capabilities of the lot. Its a very dangerous creature, likely to bite your head off if it catches you. Still, us being on higher ground, its unlikely to notice me, since i'm down wind. Opps, its paused there for a while. <ducks down> <whisper> Do you think it's seen me? No, wait, there it goes again. Is that a puddle I see at that rock there?

Now the best way of getting scent would be by using its secretions, which I strongly believe this puddle to be made of. So I'm going to go roll in that puddle and get its scent over the suit. Phew, that stinks. One of the hazards of the job mates, be glad your'e not here w'me.