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Old 2004-10-20, 09:18   Link #41
kj1980
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Age: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by outlawed
kj1980, Perhaps you can give more details about this "mecca" for doujin fans?
Which one?
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Old 2004-10-20, 09:32   Link #42
Mr_Paper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragnfly@Gamefaqs
I laughed my butt off when it was going over that doujinshi because I got an IM message right as the page was turned and it caused the video to freeze up and multiply and I madly tried to click and get them closed so my g/f didn't enter the room and think I was purposely filling my screen with nude anime girls.

Well, I laugh about it now. I was fearing for my life then.
Heh.

You'd either be lonely and single or seriously hurting if she walked in on that. ^^;
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Old 2004-10-20, 10:07   Link #43
outlawed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kj1980
Which one?
How about Toranoana (the place they go to in ep2) for starters?

Although I'd definitely like to hear about others ^_^
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Old 2004-10-20, 18:54   Link #44
kj1980
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Toranoana is a major anime/manga retailer. They are especially known to specialize in selling doujinshis and doujin games.

How does this process work?

1. An amateur decides he /she wants to make his own manga (or game, or novel)
2. After hard work, he/she gets his/her work done and is ready to sell. He/she has two (or both) options to sell his/her work:

A. Sell your doujin work at a convention (i.e.: Comic Market, etc.)
B. Have someone else sell it for you

The focus here is B. Toranoana is one of the major retailers that provides its shelves in its stores to sell his/her doujin work for him/her.


Toranoana has many retail stores throughout Japan.

The one that you saw in this episode's "Genshiken" was the main store in Akihabara - Toranoana Akihabara Store #1. People like me come here to look and buy doujinshis.


There are several types of buyers as mentioned in the "Genshiken" manga:

Type A: Buyers who go for a specific genre (i.e.: I am interested in "Maria-sama ga Miteru" right now, so I focus on the "Marimite" section)
PRO - you can expand your repertory to many doujin circles.
CON - you are not reaching out to other genres

Type B: Buyers who go for their favorite doujin artists (i.e.: I totally love BIG BOSS' ero-parody of Akamatsu Ken's works, so I focus on all doujinshis made by the doujin circle BIG BOSS)
PRO - you save money and the pinnacle of being a fan of a doujin artist
CON - very narrow focused - you are not exposed to different kinds of genre and other doujin groups

Type C: Buyers who spend their money on whatever art style they like
PRO - immersed with many different types of genres and various doujin circles
CON - costs the most money
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Old 2004-10-21, 20:46   Link #45
ramune
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Finally my most anticipated fansub is out!!! Thanks Solar and A-Faith!!!

Is it just me or scarywater is down?
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Old 2004-10-22, 02:58   Link #46
NoSanninWa
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I just saw the Solar&Faith sub of Genshinken. It was pretty good, but I'm not interested in giving a general review of the show. There's something that I need to comment on about the fansub.

Defying all logic and taste, Solar&Faith translated ero-game as hentai game. I'm sure that if kj1980 saw that, he promptly died of a heart attack. I would have thought that this would be a good place for non-Japanese people to learn correct terminology, but instead they decided to use the common mistakes made by American otaku.

Aside from this error, Solar&Faith did a wonderful job that helps to teach the viewer about unfamiliar terms related to anime. That makes me wonder all the more how the could have made the hentai game error.
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Old 2004-10-22, 03:01   Link #47
MrBrown
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSanninWa
Defying all logic and taste, Solar&Faith translated ero-game as hentai game. I'm sure that if kj1980 saw that, he promptly died of a heart attack. I would have thought that this would be a good place for non-Japanese people to learn correct terminology, but instead they decided to use the common mistakes made by American otaku.
I don't think it's necessarily a bad decision. There's alot of terms in genshiken that even hardcore western otakus don't necessarily know, and the subbers would have to use alot of onscreeners to tell the meaning of the terms.

Not sure what I would have done myself, though.
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Old 2004-10-22, 05:46   Link #48
roxfan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSanninWa
Defying all logic and taste, Solar&Faith translated ero-game as hentai game. I'm sure that if kj1980 saw that, he promptly died of a heart attack. I would have thought that this would be a good place for non-Japanese people to learn correct terminology, but instead they decided to use the common mistakes made by American otaku.
We had a pretty lengthy discussion about it, so it's not just a whim. Both terms have their pros and cons. But there are similar situations in Japanese too. E.g. they use "ero hon" for "porn mags," so some people in Japan could argue that it's incorrect and "poono hon" should be used instead. But it's kinda too late, the word is already in the language, it's used and has a specific meaning. You can't really force people to switch to the new word (well I guess sometimes you can... see French and computer terminology). This problem is present in many other languages too. What to do with a new term, translate it literally, try to coin some new term, or just use the transliteration of original word?
In the end, the deciding factor was Google, I guess ^^ (try searching for "ero games" and "hentai games" and compare hits number).
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Old 2004-10-22, 07:59   Link #49
wao
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Heh, I watched the first episode, and here are my impressions...

As a whole I enjoyed it greatly! I could really get the feeling from every single scene portrayed... the club-rush sort of idea, the whole feeling of "gee, what kind of a weird place is this room in?!", and in the room itself... it really built up the atmosphere very well, somehow the small little room with shelves of manga and all sorts of things... and it was so ingenious and FUNNY spying on Sasahara! LOL! His expression was priceless Especially when he read the doujinshi and looked at the Haruka figurine...

I look forward to more eps because I clearly could get a feeling of otaku and so on. I kind of understand the feeling because while anime/manga are not so "shunned" in Singapore, I get that "club" sort of feeling very well...

There are some people in my school who are also anime/manga fans, it's so funny - we seem to go into some talk-super-fast-mode because there's so much to say! And it's so amusing to see other people's reactions, for example just today I bumped into one of them and she was saying how she watched the first few eps of Fafner and I told her what I thought of it and she was going on about BL and I said no, Minashiro likes Maya and she's like whaaaa and then we go on about the angst and Hisashi Hirai and goddamn-it-lookalikes and I reminded her that since the exams were over she better finish watching 1-26 of SEED so I can return it to another anime fan friend of mine who she also actually knows for some reason....

Maybe it's different from this (actually, come to think of it it's fairly different) but yeah, great first ep. I can't wait for more, I've always been kinda interested by the way the otaku community work, just that the language barrier.... yeah.

It sounds like so much fun at first, but I can sense the conflict's going to increase, because of Kasukabe Saki...

But other impressions of the ep weren't that amazing, somehow the animation seemed rather lacking (except the Kujian OP) and even mediocre at times (and this is the first episode, don't they usually splash the animation on the first few eps?)... the characters didn't seem to be drawn consistently and I didn't really like the character designs anyway - it's realistic, but I don't like the hair and there's so many lines, and also the shading isn't really something I like, but I'd gladly ignore all of that if the quality of content of this ep keeps up throughout the series.

I wonder if the manga for this is available in Chinese?

Also, I need to listen again, somehow I couldn't figure out which one was voiced by Tomokazu Seki... :s
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Old 2004-10-22, 10:13   Link #50
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i MUST know what kujibiki is about. From the OP this is even looks more interesting than genshiken itself =)
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Old 2004-10-22, 12:08   Link #51
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oh god, the main character really reminds me of myself . Anyway, great first episode, just like the first chapter of the manga. Is this kujibiki unbalance show also becoming an anime? It seems rather intresting.

and oh yes, Saki-san is foxy~
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Old 2004-10-22, 13:36   Link #52
kj1980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oasis
i MUST know what kujibiki is about. From the OP this is even looks more interesting than genshiken itself =)
"Kujibiki Unbalance" is a popular manga within the "Genshiken" world.

A good analogy would be…

Within the American pop-cartoon “The Simpsons,” you see Bart and Lisa watching a cartoon show called “Itchy & Scratchy.” But let’s say that a lot of people wanted to see the cat and mouse kill each other (I personally have no idea why this would be entertaining), so it was.

Within the “Genshiken” manga, you see the characters all into the fictional manga “Kujibiki Unbalance.” But the people reading “Genshiken” wanted to know more about “Kujibiki Unbalance.” Subtle hints about what this story is about are:

A. Everything regarding about this Ritsubashi-in High School’s decisions are done by kujibiki (drawing straws)
B. Tradition of this school is that the next student body is chosen by a battle-royale between the prospective group of candidates.
C. The main character, Enomoto Chihiro is a first year student who falls in…
D. Akiyama Tokino, a second year student. She is an extreme mushroom-lover.
E. Chihiro learns that Tokino is trying out to be a candidate for the next student body president, so he joins the candidacy as the next student body historian.
F. But of course, there are many different candidates going for the same position. Hence the current student body council makes each candidate for each position to draw straws into their respective teams.
G. The story will then revolve around one team of candidates vying for the position for the next student body council:

Akiyama Tokino: candidate for student body president (main heroine)
Tachibana Izumi: candidate for student body vice-president (gamble lover)
Asagiri Komaki: candidate for student body treasurer (love interest rival)
Enomoto Chihiro: candidate for student body historian (main character)

H. Their team’s main rival is:

Kamishakuji Renko: candidate for student body president (has grudge against Tokino)
Yamada Kaoruko: candidate for student body historian (poor girl who gets spun around by trying to calm Renko-tan down)

I. Of course, there are more teams than this.

J. The current student body consists of:

Ritsuko Kubel Kettenkrad: current student body president. (Half-German/Half Japanese – childhood friend of Chihiro)
Kisaragi Kasumi: current student body vice-president & historian (daughter of a yakuza clan, very skilled in katana swordsmanship)
Risa Humvee: current student body treasurer (Japan-born American, lives in extreme poverty but manages to live happily)


Other notable hints about this story are:
Chihiro has an elder sister named Enotomo Shinobu, who happens to be a teacher at Ritsubashi-in High School. Her personality changes by putting on and taking off her glasses.

It is tradition for this school that the student body president is crowned with a “kaicho helmet” (“presidential helmet”)

Chihiro had no idea that his childhood friend, Ritsuko was back in Japan – let alone being the student body president. (The very first minutes of Ep. 1 of “Genshiken” anime shows Chihiro and Ritsuko as a child.) However, what he remembered of Ritsuko has all but changed.

Character details can be found here: http://www.kujian.info/story_character.html (no I am not going to translate that)
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Old 2004-10-22, 13:40   Link #53
Yebyosh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oasis
i MUST know what kujibiki is about. From the OP this is even looks more interesting than genshiken itself =)
As far as I know, Kijibiki Unbalance is a fictional anime in the Genshiken world. It does not 'exist' in our world. The names in the Kujibki Unbalance ( KU )OP are fictional spoofs of real life counterparts ( you can see the real VAs for them in the ending credits of Genshiken ). As such, there is not really a KU to be followed regularly for us. They are 'followed regularly' by the Genshiken cast. We would get snatches of the KU series during Genshiken itself. The fictional KU's length is created to be 25 episodes. The anime crew of Genshiken actually made 3 whole episodes and will put them on the Genshiken DVDs, namely KU 1, 21 & 25. To know the whole KU story, supposedly you have to listen to the radio drama on the internet ( I think either the OP singer's website or the official Genshiken website itself ).

Those information taken from POPGO sub group. Of course if this is wrong, I am pretty certain kj1980 will correct accordingly

As for me, I hope this will turn out to be at least as entertaining as the manga

Edit: Heh it looks like kj1980 has already typed and posted while I started doing this
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Old 2004-10-22, 13:41   Link #54
kj1980
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Join Date: Nov 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayamaneko
Is this kujibiki unbalance show also becoming an anime? It seems rather intresting.

and oh yes, Saki-san is foxy~
Yes...and no.

Yes is that the animators for "Genshiken" actually did make an anime of "Kujibiki Unbalance."

No is that - not all of them. Only Ep. 1, 21 and 25 were made - and you can only watch them when you buy the "Genshiken" DVDs.

"Genshiken" DVD-Box I will include the entire episode of "Kujibiki Unbalance" Ep. 1
"Genshiken" DVD-Box II will include the entire episode of "Kujibiki Unbalance" Ep. 21
"Genshiken" DVD-Box III will include the entire episode of "Kujibiki Unbalance" Ep. 25
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Old 2004-10-22, 13:58   Link #55
kj1980
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Join Date: Nov 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBrown
I don't think it's necessarily a bad decision. There's alot of terms in genshiken that even hardcore western otakus don't necessarily know, and the subbers would have to use alot of onscreeners to tell the meaning of the terms.

Not sure what I would have done myself, though.
That's not the point of this manga in the first place.

The manga is made to show regular people in Japan that this is how otakus are. (Whether it succeeded or not is a subject to debate).

Basically, if hard-core western anime fans do not know the subtle details, they are no more different than the regular Japanese who aren't otakus. Normal Japanese do not know about Toranoana, Comike, or ero-games as well.

Hence, everything that you see need not have any explanations what-so-ever. Telling the meaning of terms actually is a spoiler from the view point of someone who doesn't know in this case.

The point is:

"If you know the details and feel an itch at your heart - you are a Japanese otaku"
"If you don't know the details - welcome to the world of how Japanese otakus live" (i.e.: you are Saki)
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Old 2004-10-22, 14:14   Link #56
MrBrown
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Hmm, I understand what you mean. With that in mind, I'd probably leave eroge, comike etc as such.

The western anime-fandom is kinda weird in this sense. I know there'd be alot more people into eroge and other stuff, if they knew the Japanese language. I guess that just means you can't be an hardcore fan until you know the language, even in the west. Well, it _is_ a Japan based media/genre/hobby/whatever, afterall.

I still wouldn't say every non-Japanese speaking western anime fan is equal to Saki, though. :P

EDIT: Unless you're saying they are Saki towards the Japanese Otaku, rather than Saki towards Otakunism in general.
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Old 2004-10-22, 18:16   Link #57
EclipseZeta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kj1980
That's not the point of this manga in the first place.

The manga is made to show regular people in Japan that this is how otakus are. (Whether it succeeded or not is a subject to debate).

Basically, if hard-core western anime fans do not know the subtle details, they are no more different than the regular Japanese who aren't otakus. Normal Japanese do not know about Toranoana, Comike, or ero-games as well.

Hence, everything that you see need not have any explanations what-so-ever. Telling the meaning of terms actually is a spoiler from the view point of someone who doesn't know in this case.

The point is:

"If you know the details and feel an itch at your heart - you are a Japanese otaku"
"If you don't know the details - welcome to the world of how Japanese otakus live" (i.e.: you are Saki)
It's a fine line we have to walk between using the term as it is used in Japanese, or actually translating it to what we think might be an English equivalent. Unfortuantely, I'm not immersed enough in the "ero-game" culture, so translating that word was a little difficult. (heh, if I was, I might be too busy to translate... that happened with a competing translator earlier this year.) Based on my conversations with some people on IRC, I actually thought "hentai game" was an appropriate t/l. After all, Americans call pornographic anime drawings "hentai pics" and not "ero gazou" (ero-pics) or "nijigen gazou" (2D pics, as referred to on that scary place known as 2chan.) as the Japanese would call 'em. I'm in general not a big fan of incorporating Japanese abbreviated terminologies in my translation... like it would be silly to use "Telebi" as the translation every time "T.V." is mentioned. But hey, I'm open to suggestions. If you guys have other Otaku terminologies that you'd like to see translated in a certain way, come visit our channel or something and let me know! Don't worry about "Comike" tho... that's an official term like "Otakon" so I wouldn't translate it anyways.
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Old 2004-10-22, 19:27   Link #58
kj1980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EclipseZeta
It's a fine line we have to walk between using the term as it is used in Japanese, or actually translating it to what we think might be an English equivalent. Unfortuantely, I'm not immersed enough in the "ero-game" culture, so translating that word was a little difficult. (heh, if I was, I might be too busy to translate... that happened with a competing translator earlier this year.) Based on my conversations with some people on IRC, I actually thought "hentai game" was an appropriate t/l. After all, Americans call pornographic anime drawings "hentai pics" and not "ero gazou" (ero-pics) or "nijigen gazou" (2D pics, as referred to on that scary place known as 2chan.) as the Japanese would call 'em. I'm in general not a big fan of incorporating Japanese abbreviated terminologies in my translation... like it would be silly to use "Telebi" as the translation every time "T.V." is mentioned. But hey, I'm open to suggestions. If you guys have other Otaku terminologies that you'd like to see translated in a certain way, come visit our channel or something and let me know! Don't worry about "Comike" tho... that's an official term like "Otakon" so I wouldn't translate it anyways.
Dear Sir (or Madam):

I am happy that you have taken the opportunity to choose this specific anime to be "fansubbed" for potential viewers of the foreign anime community. Although I have ambiguityon my own personal stance on these "fansubs" outside of Japan, I do believe that such materials that you provide are a window to our Japanese culture that I hold dear to.

On the issue regarding the usage of foreign usage of "hentai" versus our usage of "ero," it is something that I (and most Japanese otakus) feel a certain distaste in.

"Hentai" is rather, a very harsh word. It is close to being derogotary in its original meaning that describes a noun as being "weird." (more like "fucked up," "whack," "crazy")

And as you know, the word "ecchi" is in reality taken from the first alphabetical word of "hentai" as a means for being "perveted" or the act of "sexual intercourse."

But for some reason, this reasoning seemed to have confused foreigners into using a word that to us Japanese, have never used - it was used wrong from the start.

"Hentai" (weirdo, pervert) ----> take first alphabet of "hentai" = "H", and pronounce it in Japanese ------> "ecchi" (pervert, sexual intercourse)

While it is true that in the past, we called such animes and games as "H-anime/H-games" (ecchi-anime, ecchi-game).

HOWEVER, we have never used it as "Hentai-anime/Hentai games." That was something where foreigners assummed "oh, 'ecchi' basically is taking the first letter of 'hentai,' so in essence, they are 'Hentai anime' and 'Hentai games' "


The distinction here is the subtle difference between "hentai" and "ecchi."

"hentai" (weirdo, pervert)
"ecchi" (pervert, sexual intercourse)

The very subtle difference here is that..."Hentai" is an act of being weird as a means of being perverted. "Ecchi" is an act of being perverted and/or within the concept of having sexual intercourse. Wow this is harder to explain than I imagined...

So I imagine why this mishap had taken place:

Japanese viewed such anime and games as "anime and games that had sex in it" = hence, "ecchi-anime/ecchi-game"

Foreigners viewed such anime and games as "anime and games that had sicko perverted tentancles" = hence, "hentai anime/hentai games." Therefore, "hey, ecchi probably is an abbreviation for 'hentai,' let's call it that."


This distinction in terminology was fine when these types of anime and games were all about weird fucked-up shit with tentacles, rape, and bondage...


BUT thanks to much changes in the 18-and-over otaku sub-culture industry

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=169
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=170
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=173
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=175
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=176

I think it is necessary that I start my own stupid little crusade with the hopes that foreigners, as much as they like Japan, to start using a more lesser and lighter intonation to describe such games and anime...since none of them are "hentai"


To put it bluntly:

Was "Kimi Ga Nozomu Eien" a "hentai?"
Was "D.C.~da capo~" a "hentai?"
Was "Kanon" a "hentai?"
Was "To Heart" a "hentai?"
Was "Wind ~a breath of heart~" a "hentai?"
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Old 2004-10-22, 19:43   Link #59
bOcyOgl
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This is definitely not the first time I see kj1980 explaining the 'h', 'hentai', 'ecchi', 'ero' issues... gambate...

By the way I like the first ep, wonders if it really happens in real life in Japan.

Actually we can't start a society with just 5 members.
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Old 2004-10-22, 20:25   Link #60
Yamano667
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well ..hentai (perverted ) is part of his culture, and i dont blame him.
I have seen him writing this more than a thousand times, maybe he is a hentai guy 0_o but nobody would be able to probe that


Quote:
Originally Posted by bOcyOgl
This is definitely not the first time I see kj1980 explaining the 'h', 'hentai', 'ecchi', 'ero' issues... gambate...

By the way I like the first ep, wonders if it really happens in real life in Japan.

Actually we can't start a society with just 5 members.
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