Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[Used Can]

Meh... I just cannot familiarise myself with the characters in the anime. I think it'd be nice if DEEN added some characterisation, but I guess Chiaki Kon is aiming for another batshit insane gore-fest.

I'll try watching the next episode. If I still don't like it, I think I'll drop it. I've really tried watching this with low expectations, but not even those have been met. Oh well...

[vandakiara]

is it really that bad I wonder?

I think anime-only viewers are at a disavantage *spelling?* here, but I don't the anime itself is THAT bad with characterization...

At least for Battler, Beatrice, Virgilia, Maria, Shannon and George - you can understand them more or less...

well but maybe that's just me, I've played the VN after all...

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Volcanic

Wow, episode was slower paced than I thought. WHICH IS ALWAYS A GOOD THING

No it's not always a good thing. Due to Episodes 9 and 10 being so slow paced we got that completely rushed Episode 11. If Shannon and George had been killed at the end of 10 than 11 would've been a lot better since Lambda could've done more than go "lol i'm lambda lol" and Rosa might've got more of a showcase.

Bah DEEN screwed up, they should've made this season the first 3 arcs and than did VN's 4-6 next Summer (VN 6 comes out Dec, plenty of time to work it in) in another 26 episodes. Save 7 & 8 for a third season. If the VN's get longer and longer with each one than lol.. since DEEN are struggling to fit 1-4 into 26 episodes, heck anyone would, which is why it should've done 1-3.

[Tamad]

Originally Posted by vandakiara

is it really that bad I wonder?

I think anime-only viewers are at a disavantage *spelling?* here, but I don't the anime itself is THAT bad with characterization...

At least for Battler, Beatrice, Virgilia, Maria, Shannon and George - you can understand them more or less...

well but maybe that's just me, I've played the VN after all...

DEEN has been getting progressively better with the characterization of the main characters in my opinion; however, I think the "bad" lies with the definitive lack of characterization regarding everyone else on the island, which in turn can't possibly be avoided considering their limited time slot per week. Whether you like the anime or not, there's no way you can doubt that characters like Kyrie and Hideyoshi have been portrayed as nothing short of unimportant fodder characters, which is a shame considering they have a much more prominent presence in the Visual Novel even at the point the anime is at. A large cast and 23 minutes a week don't go well together, so no matter what the characterization is going to be "bad", and the anime viewers are unfortunately going to have to deal with that if they don't plan to dive into the Visual Novel at some point. Sure DEEN can spend a few minutes each episode to include some good characterization scenes for the side characters, but I think what they're in the right when instead they decide to focus as much time as they can on the main characters and the development of the story, even if it means losing a little bit of its soul.

[Ithekro]

I wouldn't say Lambda got all that shafted. She didn't really get the "lol i'm lambda lol" type lines. She got all of her "????" lines before she and Bern started breaking the fourth wall (talking to the player/Battler...who's not there), which DEEN did drop completely...possibly on purpose, as it makes Bern seem more sympathetic and makes Lambda looks like a dumbass. Also possibly ties into Higurashi, which I get the feeling they want to avoid directly connecting Bern and Lambda to anymore.

[Christen]

Originally Posted by Tamad

Whether you like the anime or not, there's no way you can doubt that characters like Kyrie and Hideyoshi have been portrayed as nothing short of unimportant fodder characters, which is a shame considering they have a much more prominent presence in the Visual Novel even at the point the anime is at.

I wouldn't say much about Hideyoshi. He seemed to be fodder character even at this point in the visual novel. "He cares about Eva" has been shown so it's good so far.

[MarthX]

Battler and Beatrice are the only characters you should truly care about at this point. You may like others because of their quirks but they're the two main ones with the most characterization and the most screen time. Battler is the protagonist and Beatrice is the antagonist.

Even as a VN reader, I can't say I care much about the other characters.

[Akuryou]

Agreed completely with MarthX. By this point, even in the novel, only Battler and Beato have real characterization.

Some other characters get pretty well developed in the next arc though.

[MeoTwister5]

Personally I don't agree that a lot of characters get a lot of development here and next arc. I mean it's mostly for a few, and added for some, but many in the cast are still rather distant at that point.

[Klashikari]

It seems there is a general misconception regarding characterization and "importance" of a character.
So to speak, you can have lot of characterization for a side kick or even background character, without giving it too much importance.

I think Tamad mentioned hideyoshi, because as much as he is a secondary/support character, he is described and shown as a pillar of the family, regarding his diplomacy and his permanent stance to make the situation less tense or more easy going. And that point, while trivial at first, is quite subtle if you think about the whole context of the family. Of course, this point can be set with a much lower priority without putting much emphasis for the anime medium.

My gripes with your usual quick focus type of story: you make the majority of the cast completely obsolete. Certainly, in Umineko case, you had to focus on Battler and Beatrice. That is to say, it is within the presentation and execution to show a role and proper impact from the support characters, in order to give a proper role and meaning to the giant cast. (Many people complained about that for Fate/Stay Night for example, which is true: Aside of Shirou/Rin/Saber, the rest was totally inexistent or just appeared for 1 scene, to be merged with the past as quick as they appeared).
And so far, the scripters DID give some real characterization to a very handful number of characters, but rather because the plot dictated to do so (Natsuhi, Rosa and Eva, so to speak).
As much as the first arc was totally trampled in this regard, there isn't much choice regarding the rest for the time being.

However, please do not fall in this misconception that the plot is only centred on Battler and Beatrice, otherwise it exactly is the same as saying "higurashi is about killer loli": it is a gigantic alienation of the plot.
Battler and Beato are the most important characters of the story, but by no mean you can justify the other can be literally faded like fodder.
Generally speaking, all stories alike always have REAL characterization to the whole cast, except for the deus ex machina or plot device and so forth. The thing is that it is again a matter of personal preference if one thing is deemed as "relevant to be cared about".
So the "should care" isn't exactly the best kind of wording I would choose here.

As my personal opinion, the real major points are probably Battler, Beatrice, and the "pillar adult of the episode", so far: Natsuhi, Rosa, and probably Eva. Afterwards, the quirks and other elements are here to give the proper cast and interactions, I can't see them as bonus, but not as important as the aforementioned points either.

[MarthX]

The next arc gives 2 different characters (won't say who of course) a lot of characterization.

The adults are mainly game fodder. They do cool things here and there but you don't really get to know them. Chiru will probably give the adults more focus.

[KanonTheFurniture]

I think Shannon and Kanon have great characterization in the Anime so far as well, despite that they have had quite a few important development scenes shaved off. I agree with Klash; it's all about what you define as 'proper characterization' and I think most of the 'main' characters so far have it - the exceptions are the non-'adult of the episode' characters and some of the servants. If you ask me, the problem isn't so much character development as it is emotions. I think the Anime just fails to really make the viewer feel for them in the proper way, especially in scenes that really call for it...it just feels totally scripted like they (they the characters, not the VA's, who are spectacular if you ask me)'re actually reading off a teleprompter in the background of the mansion or something telling them 'you're supposed to seem angry' or 'oh, maybe cry a little, but not too much, you know, you only just lost your parents'. That's where I feel the Anime majorly falls flat.

Aside from that, though, and excluding the first totally butchered arc, I think the Anime has done a pretty good job so far for portraying what they need to portray story-wise. I just wish they'd give more feeling to the characters so they don't just feel like the plot devices in your typical 'murder mystery' story - IE, just there for the sake of having people to kill off.

Anyways I haven't watched the episode yet (will later today after class), but based on the comments my only complaint would be...does it really end so early? I'm worried we'll suffer another episode 11 fiasco, and if they screw up this arc's epic ending I will not be happy. And I'm not just talking about THAT ending, really the whole last 1/3 or so of EP3 had me on the edge of my seat saying 'as soon as I finish this chapter I'll do my homework' or 'I'll go to bed in 5 minutes', but I couldn't stop until I finished the whole thing. I really don't want to see that all crammed in due to the slow pace of these episodes - yeah, slow is nice in a way, but when you have so much to fit in, you kinda need to cram. I just think DEEN needs to learn proper cramming techniques, really (they focus too much on less important details and then end up having to rush when the time calls for more focus, as though they haven't planned this out in advance at all). I was expecting this episode to end with

Spoiler for just in case:

Kyrie suggesting they all go to the kitchen...I think that's alright to say because it's not really a 'spoiling' comment for Anime viewers, but let me know if I should remove it

If they really only ended it having covered so little material, I'm going to have to worry about the rest of the arc now - and in my opinion, what comes after this is where the arc really kicks into gear and doesn't stop until it's over.

Regardless, will have to wait until I see it myself to really have an opinion on it, I just thought I'd chime in.

[Akuryou]

My guess about the passing is that they had this episode slowed down to really introduce Eva-Beatrice properly. My bet is that the next one will be a little rushed.

[Endless_Witch_Nipah]

WAAA ~ ! DEEN GREAT WORK !! <33

1. I don't like Eva-Beatrice but "(peanut) cake, Jelly time" was truly Awsome

2. Scene when Battler slap Beato ....
MOST EPIC SCENE EVER !
poor Beato :<

Spoiler for Battler Barrier?:

O_o

3. Eva & Hideyoshi - Sooo cute Music fits Perfect.
4. Coronation scene... i missed "hapiness of marionette" and B&B claping scene.
5. Beato : urusai urusai urusai !! xd

In my opinion this episode was "Paafekuto"
This time DEEN made great EP.
I hope next episodes will be like this.

EPIC.

[Vega Lyra]

I was greatly impressed by this episode. The lack of Marionette was not nice, but maybe they had good reason to do so. (I bet it would make the setting a bit odd.) But the pacing was very well done this episode. Again, I'm just impressed.

[Divaa]

Seems like i'm the only one who really didn't like any of the music in the VN.
So the lack of tracks doesn't really bother me.

The clapping scene would of been a great addition for character development, but HOPEFULLY, the next few episodes will replace that.

[bigemperor]

Originally Posted by MarthX

Battler and Beatrice are the only characters you should truly care about at this point. You may like others because of their quirks but they're the two main ones with the most characterization and the most screen time. Battler is the protagonist and Beatrice is the antagonist.

Even as a VN reader, I can't say I care much about the other characters.

Originally Posted by Akuryou

Agreed completely with MarthX. By this point, even in the novel, only Battler and Beato have real characterization.

Some other characters get pretty well developed in the next arc though.

I really would like to be like some people, if the music is skipped NO PROBLEM IS BECAUSE IT NOT FITS THE SCENE, if the characterization from all 18 characters is poor NO PROBLEM ONLY BATTLER AND BEATRICE ARE THE MAIN CHARACTERS hahahahhahah

At this point in the sound novel i love kyrie (too much) i love rosa because of the best mom ever scene (when in the anime was BLEH) and i really like kanon and godha COME ON in the sound novel it was explain perfectly for example in godha how he is how he love to cook and they develop his character a lot more ALL THE CHARACTERS in the sound novel are 10 times better i really care for the characters meanwhile some people who only sees the anime they don't even remembered some names but well is nice to be so conformist =)

Btw reading the prologue from episode 5 I couldn’t care less about the anime, that prologue alone is better that all the anime together really awesome.

[MarthX]

Gohda, really? You're really going to argue that he was developed in the VN? Pfft. Gohda's cookbook extra TIP tells more about him than all 4 games.

[June 1983]

The game does develop Gohda a bit more than the anime does, but I wouldn't say that he was a well-fleshed out character. But personally I don't agree anyway that a character has to be fully fleshed out in order for people to become attached to them. A lot of people are attracted to characters who are only a little fleshed out -- precisely because there are things we don't know or understand about them, and it's fun to play around with them in our heads. That's why Gohda's such a cult-popular character. EP 2 develops his character to a certain point and what we're given is kind of a charming mix of bravado and cowardliness and loyalty to the family. (And the anime actually accomplished this too, because a lot of anime-only viewers thought Gohda was awesome in EP 2, as well.)

The anime has skimped on some character-development, mostly in regards to the parents. To be honest, with the exception of the parents, if an anime-only viewer feels like they don't know the characters/can't remember their names/whatever, then they aren't paying any attention the show. Seriously. It's not that hard.

[MarthX]

I think a lot people are mistaking that just because they like a character because of a personality quirk, that means the character is well developed and everyone else should like them. The VN isn't perfect yknow. It too suffers from having a lot underdeveloped characters. You may like Gohda because he's a nice guy and wants to make good food for others, but from what I've seen, very few people care about him. (talking about VN readers here) Gohda's popularity on the net is mainly from "magical gohda chef", which has nothing to do with what's presented in the VN. Someone not liking Gohda or another character isn't necessarily the anime's fault, they might not cared about them in the VN either.

Everyone is too quick to place the blame on DEEN.

Someone doesn't like X? DEEN's fault.
Someone doesn't understand x? DEEN's fault.

It seems to me that many are using DEEN as a scapegoat for Umineko's imperfections. As soon as someone says something negative, it's automatically DEEN's fault.

I love Umineko as much as the next person, but I'm not going to pretend that it's perfect and nothing could be improved upon.