The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll [2009 added ep. 13]

[sacundim]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

My whole point here is:
- Haruhi can create or alter the universe at her own will
- the whole universe affect what Kyon becomes, control his thoughts, control his minds, his actions
- then subsequently, Haruhi can unconsciously alter the universe so it will make Kyon follow certain thoughts and actions (let Taniguchi have lunch with him perhaps.....)
- If the thoughts of controlling everything and knowing what will happen make her bored, she can unconsciously clear her memories about that (like in Endless Eight)

The thing is we don't have to accept the first premise. Basically, Haruhi's true nature and the range of her powers is the series' big mystery, and we don't know the answer to it.

The whole "Haruhi is God" theory is just something that Koizumi says once; and in this Sighs episode, he actually contradicts it (Haruhi is a human that somebody else has granted the power to "correct" this world; she can't be God because God cannot be part of this world).

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by mokuseimaru

Unless they don't. Just because there are instances in which people from the future go back in time to fulfill roles that history informs them they fulfilled doesn't mean that they are physically going to be forced to do so. They can indeed sit on their asses and see what happens if they want to. Why can't they?

Because they can't , something will remind, force, or even do those acts in their places.....

Maybe everytime they want to sit tight and do nothing, the memory of their mum tell them that they can't sacrifice human society for self-interest (curiousity). Or whenever a time-traveler plan to abandon the missions, a random time-traveller change their mind.

@sacundim: Since she have God-like power, so i will still consider herself as a God if that's the case(you may call her by whatever name through, God's messenger perhaps). She maybe not the one who create the universe, but she can change it, that should be more than enough for my first premise

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

"You won't. Because you didn't. Time travel's funny that way."

Damn I love that line.

[sacundim]

There's two topics I want to address:

Sociopathy

I think the biggest problem with the discussion of whether Haruhi is a sociopath is twofold:

1. the discussion simply gives too much credence to the conventional categories of clinical psychology, which change over time and are often literally decided by committee;
2. the discussion doesn't actually apply the conventional categories very well;
3. there's too much argument about whether Haruhi is "objectively" a sociopath or not, and not nearly enough about what the actual consequences of it would be to our analysis of the show.

On the one hand, addressing (1), Haruhi fits the list more or less, but is not a stereotypical example of Antisocial Personality Disorder. But in applying the list to her people fail to realize that the diagnostic criteria for these ASPD requires the person so diagnosed to be 18 years or older. Why? Because when a minor meets these conditions, the profession still assumes that there is a chance that they are simply immature. Hell, there's nobody more sociopathic than a 6 year old boy, if we're going to reason about it as a lot of people are doing here.

So basically, very little follows from the premise that Haruhi meets the list of sociopathic traits very closely unless we assume that her personality is set in stone and that she is unable to mature.

Free will

Again, I feel that the God's-eye-view discussions about ontology are really boring in comparison with discussing how things are like from the point of view of the characters. One thing's for sure: Asahina and Kyon stress quite a bit over the possibility of messing up the time travel stuff. Asahina nearly freaks out over the possibility that Kyon won't go along with her in "Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody." In novel 7,

Spoiler for novel 7:

Kyon thinks pretty hard about whether he needs to ask Nagato to rig the weekend search groups draw to happen as Asahina Michiru remembers it—and even after he's asked her, he's pretty freaked out that it's going to happen differently.

[sacundim]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Yes, because they are bound by the knowledge that they have done so, so they have to go do those things. They physically cannot just sit on their arse and go "oh well, it'll all turn out in the end". The future says they have to do these things so they do them.

At the risk of getting really inordinately philosophical here: what theory of physics is this, and why should we accept its consequences as an accurate description of what we experience? (I really half-mean this as a rhetorical question; I don't think you're going to sway me here, but feel welcome to try, it's good mental exercise .)

My point is that we should not lose track that physics is a theory, i.e., a predictively powerful but logically fallible description of the world, and one that may be incomplete. Any argument that asks us to reject an aspect of experience because our theory of physics doesn't accommodate it begs the question, because we could just as well reject the theory of physics in question due to its inability to accord with our experience.

Again, I really think the more interesting question if we're discussing the Haruhi series is how do the characters experience these issues. And in the present Sighs episode, Kyon certainly acts in a way that presupposes that Haruhi has choices about how to act, and that some of those choices are clearly wrong.

[Tyabann]

It's not a theory of physics, it's a theory of time travel in fiction, since time travel can't exist in real life since time doesn't exist, apparently.

Most of the Haruhi-based theories I spout are stuff quigonkenny came up with on B-T years ago, but one of the major ones goes on about how Haruhi is the only being in the universe with free will, as her powers break physics.

Just pointing that out.

[Ithekro]

To the thought on Free will, doesn't Endless Eight prove that at least Kyon has free will? While they did repeat things over and over and over again, in the end he made a choice that defied Haruhi. And in Sigh he makes a choice that defies Haruhi, and later almost punches her over it. Later he's make his own choices as well without Haruhi.

In relation to the time travellers...if there is no free will, why send people back in the first place to make sure things follow one path of time? If time can't be changed, then there wouldn't be a need for time traveller to prevent things from happening, or "correcting" things. There also wouldn't be that handy paradox of Kyon directing Haruhi towards North High, when temporal theory would suggest that no such thing is possible....tha and the whole mole time loop. Mikuru(BIG) made a choice to tell Kyon about her moe to identify herself, not realizing that Kyon hadn't seen her mole yet. She created a paradox. Then Kyon investigates and later tells Mikuru(small) about her own mole, ending the loop. If time travel has no free will, there should never be a paradox. Even predestination paradoxes should not be possible if there is no free will. That Kyon hasn't destroyed Mikuru's future yet may be luck than anything else. Or it could be that changes in the present don't effect that time line as it becomes seperate from the line Kyon is on, much like Endless Eight was seperate from all time for nearly 600 years. Considering that Mikuru's explaination would suggest that time is not linear exactly, but more like individual frames of a moving picture show, it is entirely possible that Kyon has messed up the future Mikuru was from originally, but one similar to it still exists because the changes to the time line have been relatively small. It is also possible that Mikuru (both versions) are protected from changes to their own timeline via the TPDD or some other device (or just because that's how time travel works). A final possibility is that Mikuru's orginization is actively working to be sure their version of the future happens. While this makes their own choices limited, it does not mean people have no free will, since they are actively choosing to keep the future as they know it to be.

As for Star Trek, I was refering to pre-1991 episodes. Any time the Enterprise would come across a god-like entity, or some alien or computer that claimed it was a god, or the God, the crew's primary reaction was to deny that is was a god, and take steps to ensure it was not worshipped. To the point of destroying several "gods" (Apollo, Vaal, and "God" at the center of the galaxy, come to mind) As does taking steps to prove beings posing as gods were not gods, even in some cases one could call violations of the Prime Directive. Even denying that Q was a god.)
(Kirk and Picard were doing the whole denying witches/magic routine long before Battler was.)

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

*snip*

I tend to say time travel doesn't allow for free will because a stable, linear, unchanging timeline is the simplest explanation for a lot of things in Haruhi, without restorting to explanations involving "quantum superpositions" and cats trapped in boxes with bottles of poison and Geiger counters...

Spoiler for Vol. 7:

For example, Fujiwara's "predetermined events"... I'm sure quigonkenny could explain this way better, but basically, if you think about it, it doesn't make any sense that only some events can be "predetermined" while others are not... if you know the future, how could you know that only some events will always happen while others can be changed? Think about it.

So, if predetermined events do exist, then all events must be predetermined... I don't know if I'm really explaining myself well here.

Also, in regards to Mikuru's "time plane" explanation... Kyon starts thinking as early as BLR that that explanation is full of crap, and it's pretty much confirmed in Vol. 7 that it is full of crap, at least according to Kyon...

Also this:

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

"You won't. Because you didn't. Time travel's funny that way."

Damn I love that line.

[Ithekro]

Actually, wouldn't the very act of mentally trying to change the timeline, even if you know you shouldn't be able to, be a instance of free will? "You can't change the past, things are already set. Doing so is a useless thing"....Well, then what does it say about the people who try to change time, and then those that take steps to make sure time stays on one track? if there was no free will, there wouldn't be a need to "correct time", nor would there be any way for someone to even consider altering time. There also wouldnt' be a path A or path B is there was no free will to change events. There also would have been no end to the Endless Eight, nor any changes in any of the loops without free will.

[Tyabann]

...Wait, what?

You're confusing me now.

How does the fact that people made different choices in Endless Eight prove a lack of free will?

A lack of free will doesn't preclude someone from taking action... it just implies that, although they have a choice of actions, they won't (or rather, didn't) take any action other than the one they took. If that makes sense.

A set future/lack of free will only implies that people will take certain actions at certain times, without fail. People go back in time to fix the past because they already did so, and people who failed to change the future failed to do so.

Just because people exist to keep the timeline on track doesn't mean free will exists in this setting... it's merely one of the many ways the universe ensures that the timeline continues to exist the way it always has.

Of course, when you throw Haruhi or her powers in the mix all of the above goes to hell, but that's kind of the point.

Edit: I get the feeling I put my foot in my mouth somewhere and will get called badly on it. Oh well.

[Ithekro]

Considering when one looks up the term "Free Will", you'll get over a dozen different versions of what it means and how it can, can't, shouldn't, won't, does, and never did, exist....I think it is safe to say that one person's view on this matter and someone else's view on the matter doesn't prove anything because niether have knowledge of the other's reasoning and background on what is "free will". There is no common ground, especially on a forum like this that is international, where people from very different backgrounds in philosophy, religion, ethics, language, and politics, makes such debates almost impossible to prove, much less win.

One might be so bold as to say the topic of "free will" should be tabled as there is no single defined instance of just what "free will" is, much less the debates on if it exists or not. Given how many theories there are on just that one subject matter. If the "experts" can't agree on the matter, how are we suppose to do so?


EDIT: I'd point out my background is in History, thus I deal with what happened. Facts when possible. But also since I'm into historical gaming, what instances could change said facts. Alternate History being one hobby. Thus from my point of view, "free will" is an absolute in the human condition, otherwise one cannot be held accountable for one's actions. Also if there was no "free will", a lot of stupid random events would seemingly be impossible to have happened...historically speaking.

[Tyabann]

But, but, that defense solves every argument ever.

Yeah, let's just put that aside then. Along with the sociopathy issue which I have seen everywhere, on every Haruhi subforum or page, ever, and it never having being resolved.

[Ithekro]

Haruhi's mental state is easy....she's a teenaged girl of the age of 15. If she was any younger, she'd seem even less human. Just ask any American Middle and High School teacher. Between the ages of 11 and 17...boys and girls are inhuman....boys between 11 and 14 are suppose to be the worse. Teenagers in general believe they know everything. Any strangeness in Haruhi's personality can be explained very, very simply....she's a teenager.

[Khu]

Woah, that's unfair to me =(

Although maybe my mindset is even more puffed up because I'm in the top school in my state... ahah.

Though yeah I guess...teenagers tend to think more of their immediate predicaments rather than long term. And don't listen to anyone. lol.

[Jintor]

Being a teenager myself, I can vouch for that.

[Tyabann]

*cough*

loltencharacters

[Akka]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

A lack of free will doesn't preclude someone from taking action... it just implies that, although they have a choice of actions, they won't (or rather, didn't) take any action other than the one they took. If that makes sense.

Actually, lack of free will doesn't mean at all that they "won't", and even less "didn't".
Lack of free will means they CAN'T.
The fact that Haruhi (who seems to have no memory of the loops, not even residual) didn't wear the same clothes each time, is in itself a proof that there IS free will in the serie
(because, starting from the exact same point, she made a different choice => it proves she CAN chose - and did -, so she has free will).

[Tyabann]

Ah, I see where you're coming from there.

...I tend to use the novels as "more canon" than the anime in regards to theories because KyoAni has no fucking idea what they're doing.

Simply put, the clothes are a cosmetic thing that they thought up to keep us less bored. There's no evidence in the novel that clothing changed at all from loop to loop.

And yes, I know that things (not clothes) did change from loop to loop in the novel as well, but consider that you have one character who remembers the previous loops and two (three?) others that sort-of-remember them, so lolchaostheory and different things happen as a result.

So I don't think you can say that different things happening in the novel's version of E8 proves that free will exists in Haruhi. But that's just my opinion. In fact, why are we STILL arguing this when it's going to go nowhere?

Also my point earlier was the following: Given a specific psychological profile of an individual (especially cliched to hell and back individuals like Haruhi characters) and enough training in the field it's relatively easy to predict what they'll do in any given situation... thing is, even if people can make a choice, they'll usually make the same choice every time given the same exact situation for each choice.

So free will is just an illusion created by our brains as a way of coping with the fact that our choices are pretty much made for us by our own brains. It's like how your brain rationalizes you jumping after stepping on a thumbtack when in reality you jumped and THEN realized you stepped on a thumbtack.

Not that I actually believe that, but...

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

To the thought on Free will, doesn't Endless Eight prove that at least Kyon has free will? While they did repeat things over and over and over again, in the end he made a choice that defied Haruhi. And in Sigh he makes a choice that defies Haruhi, and later almost punches her over it. Later he's make his own choices as well without Haruhi.

Agreed.

As for Star Trek, I was refering to pre-1991 episodes.

There have been many Star Trek episodes (in all four series') that have been respectful and open-minded towards religion and belief in God (or any sort of spiritual belief for that matter). In fact, there was a Star Trek: TOS episode where Kirk's crew went to a planet that was like Rome during Nero's time.

It was a very clear-cut analogy to the rise of Christianity in ancient Rome. At no point were the analogues to Christians stated to be wrong... in fact, they were the protagonists in the episode (helping Kirk's crew), and Kirk was fascinated at watching something akin to this point in Earth's history kind of occur again on an alien planet.

Also, in TNG, the entire crew was very respectful towards Worf's Klingon beliefs, as wildly different as they were from the rest of the crew. I could go on, but this really isn't the place to discuss this... largely since this is a Haruhi board, not a Star Trek board.

So, if you want to discuss this further, Ithekro, please PM me.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Thus from my point of view, "free will" is an absolute in the human condition, otherwise one cannot be held accountable for one's actions. Also if there was no "free will", a lot of stupid random events would seemingly be impossible to have happened...historically speaking.

I totally agree with you here.

Originally Posted by Akka

The fact that Haruhi (who seems to have no memory of the loops, not even residual) didn't wear the same clothes each time, is in itself a proof that there IS free will in the series
(because, starting from the exact same point, she made a different choice => it proves she CAN chose - and did -, so she has free will).

And so does everybody else, since their clothes choices alters constantly from one E8 iteration to the next.

E8, in my mind, very clearly demonstrates that free will exists for the characters in the Haruhi universe.

It could be argued that at a certain macro-level - i.e. certain end results have to occur because the future is set, so some sort of chain of events have to flow in to those end results taking rise - the Haruhi characters are limited. But in many matters - such as simple clothes choices - free will is there.

The future isn't going to necessarily change just because Kyon wears a red shirt, or a blue one, on a particular day in August.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Also my point earlier was the following: Given a specific psychological profile of an individual (especially cliched to hell and back individuals like Haruhi characters) and enough training in the field it's relatively easy to predict what they'll do in any given situation... thing is, even if people can make a choice, they'll usually make the same choice every time given the same exact situation for each choice.

So free will is just an illusion created by our brains as a way of coping with the fact that our choices are pretty much made for us by our own brains. It's like how your brain rationalizes you jumping after stepping on a thumbtack when in reality you jumped and THEN realized you stepped on a thumbtack.

I've studied Psychology myself, and I'm well aware of this argument.

"Usually" is not "always".

A psychological profile - the way that we tend to think due to our genetic makeup - this predisposes us to tend to make certain choices, yes.

But that doesn't mean we can't break against the predispositions from time to time, and that is where free will is arguably at its strongest.

Kyon's predispositions are notably broken twice this year (once in E8, and once in Sighs), showing that he has free will.

[Tyabann]

Sigh. Why are we still getting into this....

Say someone from the (set) future somehow has absolute knowledge of every single event that is going to occur.

...Does anyone in the past have any real choices anymore?

Although that's just a thought experiment. No knowledge is perfect. Still, yes, Chaos Theory (the Butterfly Effect thingy) would imply that yes, wearing a red shirt instead of a blue shirt on a particular day in August would actually have some sort of effect on the future. (He might get shot, for example.)

Oh, and about people being responsible for their actions, yes, if we assume that free will doesn't really exist and people are, in fact, just products of their environment and genetics and that society is partially to blame for criminals being criminals, and for the definition of criminal and the concepts of good and evil existing at all, we might actually have to re-evaluate our core values and justice system and realize how deeply flawed and damaging they really are. We might actually have to think.

But that won't happen because people are silly.

...How did I get from Haruhi to this? We need these discussions moved to the Ontology thread where philosophy goes to die. Or something.

Yes I am trying to be clever and failing shut up.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Kyon's predispositions are notably broken twice this year (once in E8, and once in Sighs), showing that he has free will.

But he would have made a different choice had the situation been different, which he clearly did over fifteen thousand times. E8's 15498th (in the novels) loop is the culmination of every loop up until now. It's very possible that something small happened in that loop, that only happened in that loop, to cause him to actually think up something. No I don't have any idea what it could be, but the novel only shows us one loop so I can't even begin to guess.

As for Sigh(s)... he was pushed really, really far over those past few days. Anyone would have (tried to) hit her at that point. That's not free will, that's a direct consequence.

Also, the way you just described free will sounds like "neurons misfiring" to me...