Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 25 [End] Discussion / Poll

[Kakkou]

Really good ending. Beautiful, I'd say. The whole 26 year-old arc had a faint little itch that kept bugging me but it didn't in the finale. Overall an excellent series, great setting, lovely visuals despite the budget showing it's weakness at times and music-wise had some really nice tracks that stood out. I wouldn't say it was flawless but I'm happy that it was made. I'm actually grateful the staff tried their best with the visuals despite the budget. I'll take ambitious yet decently pulled off effort over unambitious any day.

Oh and excellent voice acting all around. Everyone did a top class job. Yuki Kaji as Satoru, Risa Taneda as Saki, Hiroata Hirata as Kiroumaru, everyone really. Especially Daisuke Namikawa and his A+++ performance as Squealer. Simply the best role he's ever played.

I can never listen to Dvorak's From the New World the same way ever again.

[Folenfant]

FINALLY an A-1 show from 2012 that doesn't just completely give up and shit the bed in its last quarter but instead follows through. You'd almost think the secret to these shows ending up strong is to not be a huge seller cause it seemed any time one of their shows from last year showed strong early sales the anime responded by immediately going downhill in the proceeding month and just cramming and compressing source material together like they could no longer care less.

Anyway this didn't feel like that at all really. It had some off episodes but for the most part against all my expectations it stayed on course and even tackled an issue I had thought about of much of the human cast being dumb ignorant and arguably hopeless as not merely an accidental A-1 portrayal but very much deliberate characterization of the faction on the part of the tale. I really liked how that was displayed during the trial scene very much and how it serves to further highlight Saki in contrast to the rest of the cast as kind of enlightened in retrospect whereas at first I thought she was the naive one.

In the end the show leaves questions of morality, justice and our own nature as flawed humans to ponder as any good complex classical style sci-fi show should and few of the bitter feelings of wasted potential that have come to characterize much of A-1 and its parent company Aniplex's projects for me in recent times. I'm hoping this can be the start of a new trend for them, but judging by its lack of profitability I'm expecting them to take it as a counteexample of what not to do instead. Sigh...oh well anyway Kiroumaru was a boss to the end and ultimately the Queer rat cast made the show for me I think. I can't imagine this show if it had only revolved around the stupid humans instead

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

But from a thematic perspective I thought the PK users got off too easily. At least I think they needed a painful lesson not just watching over the punishment of Squealer. Learning something and everything changing is not the same thing.

But what lesson were you expecting ad how would that have influenced anything? It was one month after the war. People wanted revenge and safety. What they did was ugly and uncomfortable to watch, but it was pretty much looking into a mirror: this has happened a million times during human history.

It's easy to sympathize with Squealer because what he said made sense, and it's easy to sympathize with the oppressed side. But as someone already pointed out, had Squealer succeeded he would've shown no mercy either. The bakenezumi would've become oppressors - hell, his plan was to raise a generation of humans as slaves to bakenezumi.

I guess it's hard because most people want justice (but then, what is justice?) and solutions. But this story hasn't picked sides or offered moral guidance until now, and it's just as well that it doesn't do anything like that in the end either. The characters are doing what they believe is the best they can do, and really, that's all they can do to achieve the changes they believe are necessary. Whether it will work or not is for the future to tell.

Originally Posted by charizardpal

I'm a little disappointed Saki didn't do something dramatic at the ending. Like come to a grand resolution and make a vow. They series keeps saying she's strong, but no matter how much they shove that down our throats, in the end she just struck me as mellow....a protect the status quo leader on auto-pilot.

I like that she didn't do anything grandiose like that... that would have been out of character both for her and for the show. She has fulfilled her promise to Kiroumaru and mercy-killed Squealer. After she becomes leader she's trying to change things... so what makes you think she's protecting the status quo?

Originally Posted by charizardpal

Grabbing the akki's body at the end was a stupid way to milk drama too....what if Squealer had some kind of booby trap?

? Unless I missed something that was Kiroumaru's body. The akki was on the other side.

Originally Posted by apotheosis

She broke a fairly important rule to do what she felt was right. It might not be a grand resolution, but it shows her growing wisdom. She's definitely not there yet in terms of leadership, but she has progressed.

I was a bit disappointed that they didn't show how humans might change, but at the same time, I'm glad they didn't show some silly trivial change that was supposed to make everything better. Changing their society will be a difficult & protracted battle with the others in power after all.

^I agree. And I think it's a great idea not to tell anything concrete about the future - that way everyone can imagine it for themselves.

[Grey]

So the scientists, so prevent PK crime and death, inputted attack inhibition and death feedback. But...wait...if they could mutate all the non-PK users into bakenezumi, couldn't they have given them death feedback and attack inhibition too? Either way should prevent war.

Still...wow, mutating all the non-PK with gene manipulation. After hundreds of years of conflict and over 90% of the world's population dying but...hoo. I'm not sure what it would even be like living with that sort of history in your past. They didn't just kill all the non-PK humans but....

Nice world-building, SSY.

[Arczyx]

Can anyone tell me why didn't Squealer run away after the girl died? He can still go into hiding and build up his armies again. I mean, didn't he gather human babies partially for that purpose?

It was even stated in the previous episode that they did it so if something go wrong, they can wait another ten years and attack again with the pseudo-fiend human children.

[hai_san]

Well fundamentally there was no real change from the Cantus user community... hell yea Saki is now the new leader and there as a failed "rebellion"... but else? The way the adults treat the (new) children aren't shown, are there still "selection" or same as before? Nothing has change...

Somehow the show reminds me of "Planet of apes" with the Cantus user being the apes and the humans being the queerat... Satoru saying the queerat descend from humans without Cantus and Squealer anouncing they are humans became a shock for me in the afterward.

Still the show was very solid, except for animation fluctuations there and there, the first 4 EP were just great, while the rest was good till very good.

[SQA]

Originally Posted by charizardpal

I liked it better back when the akki was sexy from the androgyny. Anime directors: you can have moe males.

I'm a little disappointed Saki didn't do something dramatic at the ending. Like come to a grand resolution and make a vow. They series keeps saying she's strong, but no matter how much they shove that down our throats, in the end she just struck me as mellow....a protect the status quo leader on auto-pilot.

Grabbing the akki's body at the end was a stupid way to milk drama too....what if Squealer had some kind of booby trap? She had just gone through war, and she should be conditioned to not throwing caution to the wind. Frankly Saki isn't the best possible leader, maybe Shun would have been. All I know is I wouldn't want a weak or stupid leader running my village, and trying to find a solution for 1,000 years of atrocities.

What Saki should have done was brought the truth out for the masses so they could confront their sins and change. In real life this was done in South Africa following aparteheid (see: Truth and Reconciliation Commission.) As it is, she never even tells humanity Squealer was right about them being humans. (For that matter I'm surprised Squealer didn't try to prove that to anyone at the trial, just to become a martyr and ensure someone would change things later in history. Sort of seems weak really. I don't think he even told his own race the truth, so it must have been hard to lead them.

...so many unrealistic plotholes there. I know the story is just a simple adventure story and world-building exercise with a hint of mystery, but I was hoping for a more meaningful reveal. Saki found no solution to the twist, and in that sense she failed. So the whole story was meaningless.)

I think you pretty much missed much of what went on in the world building of the series. The PK user are, for the mass majority, actually indoctrinated into being quite docile. Our main cast is really the only ones with a "free will" vaguely how we understand it. But no matter the logic, the society has to stay in place for 1 very specific reason: the "world logic" of a planet with PK users is either 1 PK user or 0 PK Users. The nature of the power is such that no other end is possible, it is only a matter of delaying the inevitable.

And to delay that day, they've thrown away every shred of humanity that they ever had and defend a system that's pretty much an affront to nature (given that it's constantly changing nature around it). Squealer was definitely evil, but he was facing off against a people that were just as evil. There is no "good" by anyone in this series, maybe just some honor here and there. It's still, at its core, a tragedy.

[ThereminVox]

Quick capsule review: Nothin' but net.

[SQA]

Originally Posted by Arczyx

Can anyone tell me why didn't Squealer run away after the girl died? He can still go into hiding and build up his armies again. I mean, didn't he gather human babies partially for that purpose?

It was even stated in the previous episode that they did it so if something go wrong, they can wait another ten years and attack again with the pseudo-fiend human children.

Losing the "fiend" meant that the surviving PK users could simply roll through them until they found the missing children. Stealing the babies was really more about insurance to take out the other PK user colonies, of which there are several just in former Japan. The other colonies might have been better prepared for a pseudo-fiend attack.

[Entravity]

I love this conclusion. Spot-on. Amazing.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

But what lesson were you expecting ad how would that have influenced anything? It was one month after the war. People wanted revenge and safety. What they did was ugly and uncomfortable to watch, but it was pretty much looking into a mirror: this has happened a million times during human history.

I 100% realize what the series is trying to say with the ending it's actually a pretty tragic look at humanity but one mixed with hope via Saki and Satoru.

It's easy to sympathize with Squealer because what he said made sense, and it's easy to sympathize with the oppressed side. But as someone already pointed out, had Squealer succeeded he would've shown no mercy either. The bakenezumi would've become oppressors - hell, his plan was to raise a generation of humans as slaves to bakenezumi.

Kuromitsu I know you have read my posts throughout this series. Have I ever given any indication that I wanted Squealer to win because I sympathized with him? In fact I remember saying the exact thing you are saying now in previous posts

However I do think the series would have been more thematically powerful if it had for example ended with the humans losing and then many years later the bakenezumi's being overthrown instead in a vicious cycle (that is actually similar to how War with Newts ended). This would have been a tragedy.

The humans being effected more negatively (even in a physical sense) by squealer's words of what the monster rats really were would be another way.

Instead the series took a more bitter sweet note. I am not saying it is a bad ending in fact I believe I said just the opposite. It's a solid, even beautiful ending. I still think it leaves me with a lot to think about but it is not quite as powerful as a more devastating ending would have been to me.

And like I said anime rarely does true tragedies so maybe I also built myself up that this would be one. I love bitter sweet endings too though.

[creb]

Wow. That was just fantastic.

Kiroumaru. BAMF of the year. That was just a haunting scene to start the episode off with.

Squealer...it's always difficult to react to a character like him. Intellectually, I fully understand, and even empathize with, what he's doing. On the other hand, he's on the other side of the line, and if I was a human of Saki's village, I'd do everything in my power to stop him. I'm not "enlightened" enough to want someone to beat me, just because I understand them.

My only real quibble over Squealer was his giving up once his "Messiah" died. I thought that was out of character.

The juxtaposition of him and Kiroumaru was great as well. If I was a rat, I could definitely see me proudly carrying the torch for Squealer's cause. I'm not, so I'd like have been killing every rat I could find, instead.

Saki...had me worried for much of this ending arc, but in the end, I got to see the Saki that was such a good character for much of this series. That great mixture of empathy and pragmatic brutality. Not being able to see where she guides her village over the years is kind of bittersweet, especially in regards to interactions with the rats.

Do Squealer's (and, to some extent, Kiroumaru's) wishes end up being addressed down the road? Hopefully so. Though, some of the spoilers seem to indicate the peachy, rainbows and sunflowers ending was a departure from the more foreboding one of the novels.

The revelation about the rats' origin seems super obvious after the fact. I always did wonder why there were no humans without Cantus around. The civilization that existed at the time that change was implemented must have been...interesting.

There don't seem to be any easy answers to their society and relationship with the rats. I suppose they could do more genetic engineering and attempt to wipe out the genes for Cantus, after which they could all kill each other with impunity, within the constraints of whatever society rose up to take the place of this one, but convincing those who get to live in the current human society to make the sacrifice for the sake of the rats seems like it would be a naive pipe dream. If I was to insert myself into such a situation, I suspect what I'd do are small things, to make things a little less seemingly arbitrarily scary for the rats. It wouldn't result in major social change, but some compassion, when you have all the power, can make things better than none.

And, lol at Maria's child being a girl. Now I don't feel bad for teasingly calling it a girl. Novel readers shouldn't be so quick to presume.

I suppose it'd have been nice for some clarity of Maria/Momoru's fate, but I think we can all imagine it was gruesome, and leave it at that.

This really was a great show. Easily the best of the last two seasons. Stuff like this keeps me an anime fan, even during the dark days. Though, if isn't doing well financially, I wouldn't be surprised. Anything remotely intelligent does seem to rarely gain traction among Japanese otaku. Though, I realize I'm over simplifying it. Especially if the source material did reasonably well, though if the very few people in these threads who've seemingly read the novel is something to go by, it's likely not many Japanese otaku have either, so the source material doing well may have little bearing as the audiences are probably fairly different.

[ChainLegacy]

Great ending. It pulled together all the loose ends I was wondering about. It explained the backstory of the rats, finally proved Squeeler had some actual revolutionary ideas even if he was looking for power, and showed the humans to be the oppressors they are.

I'd had this sentiment since probably halfway through the series and had been sympathizing with the rats since then, but I'm glad they're putting it out there in a pretty concrete fashion for everyone to see now. Yes, he might not be a great guy and he probably wasn't going to give the humans a peaceful existence under his reign, but he had his reasons for starting this war. How could he, anyways? The psionic powers are too strong to leave even one stone unturned.

I was very happy that they brought up the hunter-gatherers and slaves and how they became the rats. I was feeling so certain that they were just going to leave that as a mystery, for some reason, but nope... It turned out to be what I had expected all along that they had been mutated. One thing to point out, and this isn't a big deal to me, but I got to thinking - even if they weren't descended from humans, their struggle would still have the same weight. Think Avatar for an example. This anthropocentric arrogance humanity has is understandable and quite real in our world as well, but it really makes no sense. Another intelligent, sentient species should have the same footing as our own (and some would argue ALL species, though I'm not sure I can quite get on board with that one. I think all species should be treated with dignity and respect, but sentience does raise the bar to a higher scale for me.)

[Kanon]

Excellent and appropriate ending. Loved it.

I was afraid the ending would be rushed, but the pacing was quite appropriate. Only Kiroumaru's death at the beginning of the episode and Squealer's subsequent capture seemed to happen a bit to fast. I was really hoping Kiroumaru would survive so I'm pretty sad he had to sacrifice himself. Did he even truly need to give up his life to defeat Mamaria? Since she (eh... I don't see the point of changing her gender but okay) couldn't harm Queerats, he could have just attacked her head on after Satoru got rid of her escort and ripped her apart. I suppose this would have been more risky since there could have been hidden snipers around who could have killed Kiroumaru before he reached her. Anyway, his death was a great. I feel like he was the one Queerat who could have established better relations with humans. He was more reasonable, intelligent and respectable than most.

Squealer got to explain his motivations but I'm not sure I buy them. As Saki stated, he has always been a liar. He had no reason to reveal the truth to them. It was better for him to be remembered as a martyr than a petty rat who lusted for power. That said, I do think he believed in his cause or he would have never been able to deliver such a speech, but he probably had ulterior motives. As much as I hated him, they actually managed to make me feel pity for him... first when the humans laughed at his claim to be human, and then when they subjected him to this hellish and inhuman punishment. Even Saki, who had all the reasons in the world to hate him, thought his fate was too cruel. At the end of the day, he was definitely an interesting and memorable villain. Major props to Daisuke Namikawa for voicing him so well. His performance in this show was fantastic.

The revelation Queerats were indeed former humans without PK was not unexpected at all, but that didn't make its implications any less horrifying. Until now, I thought the humans' mutations into Queerats was a consequence of cantus leakage, but it was actually intentional. To think PK users went this far to ensure their supremacy... These people are despicable.

I am happy beyond words Saki and Satoru got a good ending after all the hardships they went through. They deserve it. Thanks to Saki, there is hope their society will gradually change for the better. She already managed to uphold her promise with Kiroumaru and save his colony. This in itself is already quite an achievement as it must not have been easy to convince the humans to let spare the queerat race. I'm quite optimistic about the future of the new world. It will take a long time to change people's mindset, but it's not impossible so long as people like Saki and Satoru exist.

I absolutely loved the wistful epilogue showing all the people important to Saki, the majority of whom she lost. They even included Reiko! (bet you forgot her ). It was a very nice touch.

In closing, I'll say I've tremendously enjoyed this series. It had all of the elements of a great anime. Intriguing setting and atmosphere, lovely characters, very solid and tightly-knitted plot, beautiful soundtrack, brilliant voice acting. It was only lacking in the animation department, but that I can overlook. Definitely the best anime of fall 2012 (you can even include the winter shows).

Originally Posted by Grey

So the scientists, so prevent PK crime and death, inputted attack inhibition and death feedback. But...wait...if they could mutate all the non-PK users into bakenezumi, couldn't they have given them death feedback and attack inhibition too? Either way should prevent war.

They could have. The thing is, they didn't only want to prevent a war... they wanted to make sure they would remain the dominant "species", so they needed to be able to kill them if need arose. They could have also gotten rid of their PK. They didn't because they wanted to remain "Gods".

[Arczyx]

Originally Posted by SQA

Losing the "fiend" meant that the surviving PK users could simply roll through them until they found the missing children. Stealing the babies was really more about insurance to take out the other PK user colonies, of which there are several just in former Japan. The other colonies might have been better prepared for a pseudo-fiend attack.

Isn't that kind of contradictory to what Kiroumaru said before (that their kind won't give up no matter what, as opposed to human)?

There's still a chance that somehow he can succeed go into hiding and building up some armies again (the village is still in a disarray, he could take that opportunity to run away somewhere and begin plotting another revolution), no matter how small it is. Compared with a certain lose, isn't it much more logical to do that instead?

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Kuromitsu I know you have read my posts throughout this series. Have I ever given any indication that I wanted Squealer to win because I sympathized with him? In fact I remember saying the exact thing you are saying now in previous posts

Oh, I didn't mean Squealer himself but the bakenezumi in general whom he was a representative of - sorry if I wasn't clear!

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

However I do think the series would have been more thematically powerful if it had for example ended with the humans losing and then many years later the bakenezumi's being overthrown instead in a vicious cycle

I actually quite like the approach they used. In the end, both sides are simply fighting for survival. It's up to the future which side emerges as winner, or whether eventually there will be a way for them to coexist peacefully. (Oops, and now I misunderstood what you said - sorry, my brain is clearly not up to the task today.)

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

The humans being effected more negatively (even in a physical sense) by squealer's words of what the monster rats really were would be another way.

I'm the opposite: I like that they didn't make this into a bigger deal than it actually is. I mean, to the viewer/reader this is a huge revelation, as it is to Saki & Satoru. But on the other hand, it changes absolutely nothing about their current situation. (And even Saki or Satoru can't really think too much about it, simply because if they accept bakenezumi as humans - they die.)

Originally Posted by creb

Squealer...it's always difficult to react to a character like him. Intellectually, I fully understand, and even empathize with, what he's doing. On the other hand, he's on the other side of the line, and if I was a human of Saki's village, I'd do everything in my power to stop him. I'm not "enlightened" enough to want someone to beat me, just because I understand them.

Yep, same here.

Originally Posted by creb

Do Squealer's (and, to some extent, Kiroumaru's) wishes end up being addressed down the road? Hopefully so. Though, some of the spoilers seem to indicate the peachy, rainbows and sunflowers ending was a departure from the more foreboding one of the novels.

That implies that this ending was peachy with rainbows and sunflowers... Anyway, no, the anime pretty much followed the book on the bakenezumi situation. The novel just goes more deeply into akki and gouma, as Saki makes some discoveries and draws conclusions. The ending itself is the same, with the glimmer of hope, but the world is just a bit darker.

Originally Posted by Arczyx

Isn't that kind of contradictory to what Kiroumaru said before (that their kind won't give up no matter what, as opposed to human)?

That was Kiroumaru. Squealer put everything on the akki - he knew that if they lost the kid their defeat would be just a matter of time.

Originally Posted by Kanon

To think PK users went this far to ensure their supremacy... These people are despicable.

Well, it wasn't just about supremacy, it was about survival, too...

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Kanon

you can even include the winter shows

Not really a compliment to me since with the exception of Chihayafuru this has been one of the weakest seasons in awhile.

But I do agree with your point this series definitely have a place on the best of my end of the year list.

Originally Posted by Kuromitsu

I like that they didn't make this into a bigger deal than it actually is. I mean, to the viewer/reader this is a huge revelation, as it is to Saki & Satoru.

Maybe because it wasn't a huge revelation to me as I expected it for awhile I think differently.

Anyways like I said before I don't want to imply that I think it was a bad ending. I think the series was thematically compelling but something more devastating might have made a stronger impression on me.



And that last quote about Squealer's wishes isn't mine.

[FABD]

Maybe I'm dense.. but there's something I don't usderstand..

"Why didn't the death feedback affect Maria's child when she slaughtered Kiroumaru's army?

[Gohan78]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I do still love the series though and this ending was infinitely more satisfying for me than Psychopass which ended the other day.

I actually think that these two endings are very similar.

Spoiler for Psycho-Pass ending:

In both cases, the status quo was restored. The society didn't learn from its mistakes (the fact that Tainted Cats are stil raised means that they are still disposing of problematic children). There is only a small glimmer of hope that someone in the future will change things.

Well, in hindsight it's probably the happiest ending they could do without resorting to deus-ex-machina (I was very worried that Saki would try to befriend the akki). Sucks for poor Kiroumaru, who was the noblest character till the end.

I concur that Yuki Kaji had the best role of his career in Satoru. The prolem with Kaji is that he is often cast as the spineless male lead (Ouma Shu, Haruyuki in Accel World). Taneda Risa also did a good performance but the best seiyuu award for this series certainly goes to the two Queerat leaders, Namikawa Daisuke and Hirata Hiroaki.

Some important details were clearly lost in translation from novel to anime, and I have some reservations over the whole death feedback thing, but overall it was a good and thought-provoking series. 8/10

[creb]

Originally Posted by FABD

Maybe I'm dense.. but there's something I don't usderstand..

"Why didn't the death feedback affect Maria's child when she slaughtered Kiroumaru's army?

She didn't touch his army.