Byakugan, Sharingan & Rinnengan

[Hunter]

tkdtiger what you are talking about is a matter of experience and not a direct ability of the Byakugan, a great example of that in the manga was Kimimaro.
All fighters do that, that's why they can avoid blows to begin with.

But this is simply nothing compared to the Sharingan capacity of predicting.
It's about educated guesses coming from your experience and allowing you to know what the opponent is doing and to evaluate how to avoid it.
It's not about full prediction allowing to read perfectly through the movements of your opponent and thus to know and even seeing what's coming before the opponent started this move.

You're right the capacity of the Byakugan to see everything at ~360° gives a clear edge for its user compared to any "normal" fighters but it's still up to the user's experience.
Actually in certain condition it would even be better than the Sharingan because the Byakugan user seeing all around him, he can't lose track of his opponent (particulary in a skirmish against several opponents) contrary to the Sharigan which has a normal field of vision.
It's true to say that the Byakugan has a better insight but in matter of prediction, the Sharingan simply showed to be in a completely different league than the Byakugan.


As for the abilities of the Sharingan not working on the Byakugan (which ability anyway?) I really don't see why. Can't human hurt monkey?

Spoiler:

Can't Doton and Suiton be used against Mokuton?

[BlackPeter]

In essence you can think of it like this when it comes to taijitsu prediction: sharingin gives you a fully analysed document while the byukugan gives you raw data and it's up to you to make sense of it. As we all know, when it comes to analysis of raw data computers do it faster and are more accurate, but that doesn't mean that a computer is always accurate or always the best thing. There are situations were getting a huge amount of raw data is better(the byukugan) is better, ie what if someone through a punch, not to hit you but to manuever you into a trap a corner. the byukugan user would see the trap behind them but may or may not be able to deduce that the attacker is going to punch, a sharingin user would definilty see the punch going but wouldn't see the trap behind them.
I'm sticking with the byukugan, i'd rather have the raw data than the analysed print out.

also i think people are unsure about whether or not the sharingin techs work on the byukugan because (i believe) the sharingin neeeds direct eye contact to work for some of the mental techs. since the Byukugan users doens't need to look directly at any one point to see all points it can be argued taht teh byukugan users's eyes dont' work like human eyes and may or maynot be effected by the sharingin. Without a direct confrontation in the manga we'll never know (but seeing as how the sharingin gets a new ability and powerup every 3 issues, i have a feeling the byukugan wont be immune)

[tkdtiger]

Originally Posted by Hunter

tkdtiger what you are talking about is a matter of experience and not a direct ability of the Byakugan, a great example of that in the manga was Kimimaro.
All fighters do that, that's why they can avoid blows to begin with.

But this is simply nothing compared to the Sharingan capacity of predicting.
It's about educated guesses coming from your experience and allowing you to know what the opponent is doing and to evaluate how to avoid it.
It's not about full prediction allowing to read perfectly through the movements of your opponent and thus to know and even seeing what's coming before the opponent started this move.

You're right the capacity of the Byakugan to see everything at ~360° gives a clear edge for its user compared to any "normal" fighters but it's still up to the user's experience.
Actually in certain condition it would even be better than the Sharingan because the Byakugan user seeing all around him, he can't lose track of his opponent (particulary in a skirmish against several opponents) contrary to the Sharigan which has a normal field of vision.
It's true to say that the Byakugan has a better insight but in matter of prediction, the Sharingan simply showed to be in a completely different league than the Byakugan.


As for the abilities of the Sharingan not working on the Byakugan (which ability anyway?) I really don't see why. Can't human hurt monkey?

Spoiler:

Can't Doton and Suiton be used against Mokuton?

That's kind of what I was trying to say, but I think the byakugan user would still be able to predict some movements a little better then a normal ninja, but like I said prob. not as well as the sharingan. I think it's actually falls somewhere inbetween what a normal ninja could predict and how the sharingan predicts. Anyways if you think about it really depends on how developed the user of the sharingan and the byakugan user are, thus in both the sharingan and byakugan it's also still based on the experience. Mostly terchniques such as the sharingan's illusionary tech., its use of hypnosis, and I don't think Tsukuyomi would be userful against a byakugan user. Itachi's Amaterasu I think can be used against a byakugan user also Kakashi's dimenional thingy prob. could work. I based this on the byakugan's ability of insight. I think this aslo because of the byakugan's ability of insight. If you think about it the byakugan user is looking into the opponent...literally...so there really is no eye contact, also in the def. for insight it says "discern the true nature of a situation" so I think if the byakugan user has superior insight it should be able to discern and take apart illusions and hypnosis, although I think this would be only possible for the most advanced users of the byakugan. anyways these are just my own theories like I've mentioned we just don't know what weaknesses or strengths there are if a byakugan user went up against a sharingan user.

[Kotengu]

With sharingan I would cast a genjutsu on kishimoto sensei, and force him to draw naruto characters in my presence. Then I would mimic his style, and take over the narutoverse and eventually the world!!!

But now that I think on it a bit we haven't really seen a 100% byakugan in action really. I mean, I doubt neji (as much as a BAMF as he is) has completly mastered byakugan. Especially since he doesn't even have 360 vision yet (but is improving). And sharingan vs byakugan at lower levels are pretty much even. Both can see stuff with equal ability, but rely on the user's ability to dodge, mimic, or counter. The scope of the powers can be accuratly portrayed by the difference between characters. Hizashi>Neji>Hinata. Itachi>Sasuke. These examples show EXTREME differences in dojutsu ability.

I wouldn't count byakugan out yet jutst because ms was so hardcore. I predict some hardcore improvement in neji's future. That being said, as for right now sharingan trumps everything we've seen byakugan do, so . . . shazam.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by tkdtiger

That's kind of what I was trying to say, but I think the byakugan user would still be able to predict some movements a little better then a normal ninja, but like I said prob. not as well as the sharingan. I think it's actually falls somewhere inbetween what a normal ninja could predict and how the sharingan predicts. Anyways if you think about it really depends on how developed the user of the sharingan and the byakugan user are, thus in both the sharingan and byakugan it's also still based on the experience. Mostly terchniques such as the sharingan's illusionary tech., its use of hypnosis, and I don't think Tsukuyomi would be userful against a byakugan user. Itachi's Amaterasu I think can be used against a byakugan user also Kakashi's dimenional thingy prob. could work. I based this on the byakugan's ability of insight. I think this aslo because of the byakugan's ability of insight. If you think about it the byakugan user is looking into the opponent...literally...so there really is no eye contact, also in the def. for insight it says "discern the true nature of a situation" so I think if the byakugan user has superior insight it should be able to discern and take apart illusions and hypnosis, although I think this would be only possible for the most advanced users of the byakugan. anyways these are just my own theories like I've mentioned we just don't know what weaknesses or strengths there are if a byakugan user went up against a sharingan user.

Not really, Sasuke was already predicting Haku's moves on a newly gained Sharingan, in the case of Sharingan it is job to do the prediction, now is only a matter if the person that has the Sharingan is quick enough to react to an incoming attack.

The Byakugan User can't predict where a blow will land unless, as Hunter explained, because of Experience in fighting, rather than the eye giving you the edge, the edge of the Byakugan comes from its 360 degree vision, so practically you can’t attack a Byakugan user using blind spots.

What The Byakugan user (and any other fighter do) is not predicting, it is making a deduction, which could be either right or Wrong, in the case of Sharingan the prediction will not fail (of course taking away special instances like Naruto Chakra Crust).

[Lumir]

One point about the sharingan is that if you dont look into the users eyes you dont have to worry about the hypno effects of MS. And it also drains the user quickly.

Now the buakigan has a blind spot, this can be countered by sending out chakra in imense amounts at that point, but is still a down side.

Also note the buakugan has the ability of pre-determination, not as a skill or technique but as a observation. It can see were chakra is being accumulated, how the muscles and internal organs are being effected, as well as the chakra points.

Now if we look at the abilities alone, the sharingan and the buakigan are about the same.

The difference lies in the user, thier body, there insight, and over-all abilities/limits.

Hell just have naruto implant a sharingan eye and a buakigan eye to take on anyone... i know... wishful thinking...

[Ichimaru]

if the shari is the evolution from byukugan, then why didnt the idiots in the upper family from the byukuhan put a restrain curse on the shari bloodlimit....

[tkdtiger]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Not really, Sasuke was already predicting Haku's moves on a newly gained Sharingan, in the case of Sharingan it is job to do the prediction, now is only a matter if the person that has the Sharingan is quick enough to react to an incoming attack.

The Byakugan User can't predict where a blow will land unless, as Hunter explained, because of Experience in fighting, rather than the eye giving you the edge, the edge of the Byakugan comes from its 360 degree vision, so practically you can’t attack a Byakugan user using blind spots.

What The Byakugan user (and any other fighter do) is not predicting, it is making a deduction, which could be either right or Wrong, in the case of Sharingan the prediction will not fail (of course taking away special instances like Naruto Chakra Crust).

but I'm not trying to say the byakugan is what predicts, but it does allow the user to predict movements alittle better then a normal ninja since he can see incoming attacks almost from all directions is what I'm trying to say. Yes, Sasuke was beginning to predict Haku's movement, but look how long it took before the sharingan was able to predict some of Haku's movement, thus even the predictability of the sharingan isn't perfect and actually seems to get stronger as the person uses it more, thus it's still again based on experience. If Haku wanted to he could have killed Sasuke and that would have been the end of it...like I said though really we don't know enough of the byakugan can do and we only know as much about the sharingan, because of Itachi, Kakashi, and Sasuke. I wouldn't be surprised though if we found that the byakugan has other techniques that are on par with the sharingan since the sharingan is derived from the byakugan.

[tkdtiger]

Originally Posted by Ichimaru

if the shari is the evolution from byukugan, then why didnt the idiots in the upper family from the byukuhan put a restrain curse on the shari bloodlimit....

because they're still sep. clans. No need to start a war with another clan, but if anycase the byakugan is much more heavily guarded then the sharingan. Did it say that the sharingan evolved from the byakugan or derived from the byakugan. If it's derived from the byakugan it's possible that at some point someone stole the byakugan and studied it and eventually created the sharingan and that's why the Hyuuga clan created the branch house and such to prevent something like that from occuring...but again that's just speculation

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by tkdtiger

but I'm not trying to say the byakugan is what predicts, but it does allow the user to predict movements alittle better then a normal ninja since he can see incoming attacks almost from all directions is what I'm trying to say. Yes, Sasuke was beginning to predict Haku's movement, but look how long it took before the sharingan was able to predict some of Haku's movement, thus even the predictability of the sharingan isn't perfect and actually seems to get stronger as the person uses it more, thus it's still again based on experience. If Haku wanted to he could have killed Sasuke and that would have been the end of it...like I said though really we don't know enough of the byakugan can do and we only know as much about the sharingan, because of Itachi, Kakashi, and Sasuke. I wouldn't be surprised though if we found that the byakugan has other techniques that are on par with the sharingan since the sharingan is derived from the byakugan.

NO, even before Sasuke gained the Sharingan he was slowly learning the pattern of Haku’s Movements with his normal eyes, when he gained the Sharingan, he deflected every attack.

If I’m not mistaken, Haku attacked Sasuke twice after gaining the Shairngan, the first one where Sasuke deflects every needle and Hakus (and the reader) discover that Sasuke gained the Sharingan, and the other to protect Naruto, (Hunter correct me if I’m Missing something) and no moment when he gained the Sharingan he had trouble to predict Hakus attacks.

And I will be surprise if we see any new abbility given to the Byakugan, Byakuga belongs to secondary characters not important to the story, different from Sharingan that belongs to the second most important character in the story, heck each time the Sharingan is presented, it have a new ability.

And it still not a fact that the Sharinganis dereived form the Byakugan not to mention

Spoiler:

Kyuby spoke about Sharingan and/or Uchihas having a Curse Chakra, So I think The Uchihas are not normal

Also, you are confusing the terms, Bykugan does not allow the user to predict movements better, this prediction you are talking about, its totally tied with the person who has the eye, and not with the Eye itself- That The Byakugan has better insight and thus you can see things better? Yes it can, but it won’t help to now where a punch will land and avoided accordingly.

With the Byakugan You will see maybe the punch coming better than a normal eye, and thus theorize were the punch will land (i.e. You see someone throwing a punch at you, and you calculate that the trajectory is at your face, of course Margin of error exists), but when we talk about prediction, is knowing exactly were is going to land. (i.e. Before the punch is thrown, you know perfectly were its going to land)

[Hunter]

BlackPeter I agree, As an analogy I would say that in term of insight the Byakugan runs on a better engine than the Sharingan but doesn't have the correct sofware like the Sharingan to compile and make sense with all the elements.
About the effect of Sharingan Genjutsu I think otherwise because I think the Byakugan looks directly at every points.
It's not like the Byakugan give an extended peripheral vision , it give a perfect vision focused on everything.
But either way I think it would work : think about Tayuya's Hearing-based Genjutsu, the Genjutsu was functional if you heard the sound, not only if you listened to it.
In the same way Sight-based Genjutsu are functional if you see them and not only if you focus on them.

Yes, Sasuke was beginning to predict Haku's movement, but look how long it took before the sharingan was able to predict some of Haku's movement

That was the anime dragging on things to lenghten the fight, in the manga at the moment Sasuke got the Sharingan, Haku became unable to hit him.

Originally Posted by Lumir

Also note the buakugan has the ability of pre-determination, not as a skill or technique but as a observation.

What? I think you meant to use another word here.

[tkdtiger]

Originally Posted by Rurik

NO, even before Sasuke gained the Sharingan he was slowly learning the pattern of Haku’s Movements with his normal eyes, when he gained the Sharingan, he deflected every attack.

If I’m not mistaken, Haku attacked Sasuke twice after gaining the Shairngan, the first one where Sasuke deflects every needle and Hakus (and the reader) discover that Sasuke gained the Sharingan, and the other to protect Naruto, (Hunter correct me if I’m Missing something) and no moment when he gained the Sharingan he had trouble to predict Hakus attacks.

And I will be surprise if we see any new abbility given to the Byakugan, Byakuga belongs to secondary characters not important to the story, different from Sharingan that belongs to the second most important character in the story, heck each time the Sharingan is presented, it have a new ability.

And it still not a fact that the Sharinganis dereived form the Byakugan not to mention

Spoiler:

Kyuby spoke about Sharingan and/or Uchihas having a Curse Chakra, So I think The Uchihas are not normal

Also, you are confusing the terms, Bykugan does not allow the user to predict movements better, this prediction you are talking about, its totally tied with the person who has the eye, and not with the Eye itself- That The Byakugan has better insight and thus you can see things better? Yes it can, but it won’t help to now where a punch will land and avoided accordingly.

With the Byakugan You will see maybe the punch coming better than a normal eye, and thus theorize were the punch will land (i.e. You see someone throwing a punch at you, and you calculate that the trajectory is at your face, of course Margin of error exists), but when we talk about prediction, is knowing exactly were is going to land. (i.e. Before the punch is thrown, you know perfectly were its going to land)

That's what I was trying to say...I guess I used a poor choice of words when I said prediction. I guess anticipating would be a better word for the byakugan. Okay I haven't read the manga in along time.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by tkdtiger

That's what I was trying to say...I guess I used a poor choice of words when I said prediction. I guess anticipating would be a better word for the byakugan, although anticipating is a syn. of prediction. I thought Sasuke didn't start predicting his movements until after Naruto came inside the ice mirrors and gave sasuke more time? that's when he started using flame attacks to predict his movements. and when he got his sharingan he was still barely dodging the attacks?

When he begun to do Katon Jutsu, he still did not had the Sharingan his eye were slowly getting accustom of Hakus movements, in this case Sasuke was anticipating Hakus movements (what you are refering abuot), And Sasuke getting acustom of Hakus movements could had been a foreshadow of the Sharingan trying to suffice.

And Now we are on the same track, we could Agree then, it was just wording, when we reffer to Prediction (inside what were are talking about), is about having the information beforehand, Kind of like this comparison:

The people at weather channel, based on a formed storm and other information can predict the projected pact of a Storm, however there is margin or error in this projection, we can say the Byakugan works like that.

The Sharingan could be a Nostradamus type of person, even before the storm is formed, he is telling you were is going to rain and when. ^_-

[tkdtiger]

even though neji is just a secondary char. I think Kish. wants to show more aspects of some of these char. and I think Neji is one such char. I'm just saying we don't know enough of the byakugan yet. It's just one of many questions that are in Naruto. I actually think that Neji and Sasuke will eventually fight eventually as I think it's implied at the beginning the series, but I wouldn't be surprised either if it never happens. I just hope they don't make Naruto too dragonballish...and make the sharingan out to be something invincible

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by tkdtiger

even though neji is just a secondary char. I think Kish. wants to show more aspects of some of these char. and I think Neji is one such char. I'm just saying we don't know enough of the byakugan yet. It's just one of many questions that are in Naruto. I actually think that Neji and Sasuke will eventually fight eventually as I think it's implied at the beginning the series, but I wouldn't be surprised either if it never happens. I just hope they don't make Naruto too dragonballish...and make the sharingan out to be something invincible

Well, If you read the Manga

Spoiler:

Neeji already saw action, I guess it will be long until we see him again, An I don’t think the eye itself with be upgraded, rather than the Hyugas Taijutsus repertoire, as it was the case, The Byakugan had an improvement of an already existent ability

It is true that everyone is crazy to see the Ultimate fight betweens the clans, (I’m included) but the fight itself, sounds Kind of dull when you try to think about it. A Rematch Between Lee and Sasuke would be much better.

[tkdtiger]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Well, If you read the Manga

Spoiler:

Neeji already saw action, I guess it will be long until we see him again, An I don’t think the eye itself with be upgraded, rather than the Hyugas Taijutsus repertoire, as it was the case, The Byakugan had an improvement of an already existent ability

It is true that everyone is crazy to see the Ultimate fight betweens the clans, (I’m included) but the fight itself, sounds Kind of dull when you try to think about it. A Rematch Between Lee and Sasuke would be much better.

I agree...I also would like to see how Neji is able to defeat lee...It's seems that Lee mentions that alot, but it never actually shows it? I'll def. have to go back and reread some of the manga. : )

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by tkdtiger

I agree...I also would like to see how Neji is able to defeat lee...It's seems that Lee mentions that alot, but it never actually shows it? I'll def. have to go back and reread some of the manga. : )

In The case of Lee vs. Neeji they never showed it, I guess it was somehow the case of Naruto and Sasuke I guess, Lee been the hard worker that wanted to surpass The Genius, as I think he always called Neeji to a duel but loosing, It was Lee observation that he had stored the Lotus Jutsu to defeat Neeji.

EDIT, You know after all these years, I never did make my selection on one of them, I will pick the Sharingan, only because the copy ability, been able to copy any martial artist, Hypnotized people, is a plus.

Not to mention, And I think someone mentioned this a long time ago, With Buyakugan you will look like freak or a Crack Addict with all those vein popping out close to your eyes, while with Sharingan you only look as if you have some Eye infection – or maybe High on something -

[tkdtiger]

I was thinking about the fight between the clans...I wonder how Kish. would go about it. It seems he always gives someone some sort of trump card in the end doesn't it? So I wander what kinds of trump cards he would come up with. I have to agree after thinking about it a bit it does seem it would be anticlimatic. If it happens it prob. would be at or near the end?

[raikage]

Originally Posted by Hunter

As for the abilities of the Sharingan not working on the Byakugan (which ability anyway?) I really don't see why. Can't human hurt monkey?

I would have thought that the Sharingan itself not being able to protect against Sharingan would be a pretty good indicator of how effective anything else would be.

Originally Posted by Ichimaru

if the shari is the evolution from byukugan, then why didnt the idiots in the upper family from the byukuhan put a restrain curse on the shari bloodlimit....

Depends on when the bloodlines split, and how.

Taking what I know of evolution into account, I would guess that the two parted ways long ago (at the time, it was probably just slightly enhanced eyesight) at which point each bloodline began to take on its own seperate traits. If it's that long ago, then likely by the point at which security demanded the curse seal the Uchiha were too far distant from the Hyuuga to have any sort of control.

[Kristian_Nox]

They sounds good but I won't have both of them becuase in my reason everyone wants them. They will get you weak during battle and they own weakness. Shargian there two parts of it right the Nomral Sharingan and Mangekyō Sharingan.

Spoiler:

There are couple ways to get Mangekyō Sharingan. Kakashi's Mangekyō Sharingan developed his own version of the Mangekyō Sharingan, presumably during the timeskip. Unlike Itachi's version, which is used to destroy a target, Kakashi uses his to create a localized interdimensional spacetime warp, allowing him to target any object and send it to another dimension, achieving the same result.

There is Itachi vision of the Mangekyō Sharingan that we know of. He gained the Mangekyō Sharingan by killing Shisui, his best friend. With the Mangekyō Sharingan, Itachi is able to use the two most powerful jutsu of the Uchiha clan, Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. Tsukuyomi, named after the Shinto moon god Tsukuyomi (or Tsukiyomi), traps the target in an illusionary world that is totally controlled by the user. The user can then torture the target for as long as desired, inflicting vast mental damage upon the target. They both sound good but it will get you weak. I heared mayeb its not turth it will bring Blinds into the user of Sharingan. But they could be wrong I am not use. Now the Byakugan this is also very useful but you can use shadow clone jutsu like Uzumaki Naruto to confuse the enemy who have that kind eyes. If you have Byakugan you need to have a fighting style Jūken (Gentle Fist) which is my frav fighting style. You must have that to make your Byakugan more effect. The weakness that it bring is small blind spot behind the first thoracic vertebra (near the back of the neck), which is its only known weakness. Thats my piont of view of it I won't have chooce nether. There some of it I copy and I paste doing my rescreach of this bloodline. Thank you for reading this. I got one more thing about the Sharingan that I forgot to bring up. To use the Sharingan effect you need to look at the person like Zabuza did to Hatake Kakashi is blind him with his mist jutsu. Then leave the Sharingan usless in battle and wasting your enegry i think on it.