Getting bolder is not profitable

[roriconfan]

20 years ago, I found the sight of a simple pantsu in any slice of life/comedy very erotic. After the Ikki Tousen trend started sprouting roots, now I get to see a hundred times more ecchi stuff and I don't find them erotic at all. Even worse, other producers try to make their similar shows even bolder and bolder to the point they border hentai and it STILL does not feel ok.

Same thing can be said about any other element in any anime show. In the 70's the simple tale of 5 youths fighting alien invaders with a huge robot was enough to fill a 50 episode show. Now, after shows like Tengen Toppa or Code Geass came along, we are practically impossible to like something about huge robots or a mecha story.

Many of us find most things average or stereotypical.
-Would we think that if there were not shows that raise the bar higher every now and then?
-Would we nag if all shows were following the exact same formula?
-Isn't making bolder shows unprofitable for the industry? Can Sunrise hope to sell a show as high as it did with Code Geass if it isn't equally or more complicating than it?
-Is saturation even an issue if we don't feel the shows repeat without a reason for innovation?

[DragoZERO]

Once the Quantum Limit of Ecchi is reached everything will cease to be and life as we know it will end.

Or everything will go back to simple service like hips or slight cleavage. If everything is acidic, just throw some base in. If it's too sweet, throw some salt in. We'll get to a point where subtle service is something to be admired and used more. It's a cycle.

The only question is what the limit is...

[ChainLegacy]

Actually I'd like more of these 'bold' and 'epic' shows you're complaining about. I see your point that the bar has been raised so ridiculously high that being more bold is impossible, but an innovative and interesting story is enough to make that a non-issue. What I do fully agree with is over-saturation, but I don't think shows like Gurren Lagann and Code Geass fit the bill. I think the Azumanga Daioh-style shows have become too prevelant. Hell, I enjoy those shows. I see why people like them. But they're just such an inescapable fixture of the industry today that some of the old draws of epicness and testosterone filled action have gone by the wayside. Which is why, imo, Gurren Lagann was so popular - it was like finding water in the desert. A rare hot blooded anime in a generation of rather mundane shows.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Actually I'd like more of these 'bold' and 'epic' shows you're complaining about. I see your point that the bar has been raised so ridiculously high that being more bold is impossible, but an innovative and interesting story is enough to make that a non-issue. What I do fully agree with is over-saturation, but I don't think shows like Gurren Lagann and Code Geass fit the bill. I think the Azumanga Daioh-style shows have become too prevelant. Hell, I enjoy those shows. I see why people like them. But they're just such an inescapable fixture of the industry today that some of the old draws of epicness and testosterone filled action have gone by the wayside. Which is why, imo, Gurren Lagann was so popular - it was like finding water in the desert. A rare hot blooded anime in a generation of rather mundane shows.

I agree 100%. You can't blame those shows for what they did well.

If anything, the fault may lie with the animation studios that aren't willing to take a chance and break away from the norm... evidenced, I think, by the huge number of "slice of life" genre anime that have been released recently.

And boldness and innovation IS profitable. I don't know what you base your argument on, roriconfan, but it sure isn't based upon sales statistics, that's for sure. Maybe you have just become jaded to those kinds of shows because you watch them too much. I personally watch such a wide swath of anime types (minus the young girly-girl magical shoujo girl shows that kinda make me ill), that it would take a ridiculous amount of... well, ANYTHING for me to get bored of it.

[C.A.]

TTGL did not break the market, in fact Shin Mazinger Z came in and sold more DVDs than TTGL, the Gundam 00 movie outsold the TTGL movies as well. And I don't think that TTGL or Code Geass was enough to satisfy us mecha fans.

The audience will always want more, it will never reach a point of saturation where there's nothing to sell.

[Eater of All]

Saturation doesn't really exist; it's just a matter of trends and fads coming and going. If the industry hits a dead end with what it's doing, it will eventually find a different way to continue on. Innovation is, therefore, not so much inheritedly unprofitable as you just need to be innovative in the right direction (i.e. not just throwing random crap together into some new abomination).

[C.A.]

Alot of times in art history, making something bigger and bolder is not what that creates revolution. The biggest revolution in art was a toilet bowl, people completely changed their idea of what's art.

As long as there is exploration and expansion of context, there will always be something new. And whatever makes the obstacle or limitation can also become the source of inspiration. Can't go big or fabulous? Go choose from the next million words.

[Terrestrial Dream]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

20 years ago, I found the sight of a simple pantsu in any slice of life/comedy very erotic. After the Ikki Tousen trend started sprouting roots, now I get to see a hundred times more ecchi stuff and I don't find them erotic at all. Even worse, other producers try to make their similar shows even bolder and bolder to the point they border hentai and it STILL does not feel ok.

Same thing can be said about any other element in any anime show. In the 70's the simple tale of 5 youths fighting alien invaders with a huge robot was enough to fill a 50 episode show. Now, after shows like Tengen Toppa or Code Geass came along, we are practically impossible to like something about huge robots or a mecha story.

...whaaat? I won't even consider Code Geass near my top 10 mech anime. And trust me even after TTGL I still want more mech animes to watch.

[aohige]

As long as you keep your mind young, you can continue to enjoy many things in life without much pessimism.
Child-like sensitivity isn't always a bad thing.

People use the phrase "you're easily amused" as a negative connotation, but I disagree.
It's a compliment and a sign of your tolerance and flexible adaptability.





... in other words, I can enjoy HOTD or P&S just fine, without the need to advocate my "sophisticated taste" to others.

[Scrya]

It's like a cycle of fads. One style of anime will be interesting now, and one style will be interesting later. It's not just a scale of good or bad.

As for ecchi... I'm not sure. I can't say it's a fad with that. Maybe it'll eventually be fashionable to have clothes on? Or we could have different fetishes as to what they're doing, a fetish being like how quite a few people are into tentacles.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Eater of All

Saturation doesn't really exist; it's just a matter of trends and fads coming and going. If the industry hits a dead end with what it's doing, it will eventually find a different way to continue on. Innovation is, therefore, not so much inheritedly unprofitable as you just need to be innovative in the right direction (i.e. not just throwing random crap together into some new abomination).

Eh, I'd dispute that saturation doesn't exist. Based on the number of shows produced a few years back and the number that didn't sell very well, I'd say there's a pretty good case to be made that anime went through a bubble market a few years back that can't be explained by a mere economic downturn. Not disputing that there were plenty of great shows produced during that period of course... us fans were the ones that got to reap the benefits of the overproduction.

What I've noticed is that mecha seems to be a genre that produces a few "big hits", while ecchi produces a lot of minor hits. If I had to pinpoint a cause (remember, I'm not exactly an expert), I'd say that the few companies that have the resources to put together and market big mecha shows tend to intentionally space out their productions to increase sales - and the sales numbers would suggest that works pretty well.
Eh, I'd actually say that the anime market as a whole was pretty saturated a few years back. Yeah, there's the economic downturn as well, but from what I've heard there were a lot of shows that experienced very poor sales during that period than

[Eater of All]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Eh, I'd dispute that saturation doesn't exist. Based on the number of shows produced a few years back and the number that didn't sell very well, I'd say there's a pretty good case to be made that anime went through a bubble market a few years back that can't be explained by a mere economic downturn. Not disputing that there were plenty of great shows produced during that period of course... us fans were the ones that got to reap the benefits of the overproduction.

Actually yeah, that was too much of a blanket statement there. How I see it though, and as Scrya mentioned, an industry is made up of an unlimited cycle of trends which doesn't saturate. What saturates is the current trend itself, which, after a transition period, will eventually get replaced by a new trend or direction. I imagine mecha was all the rage one or two decades ago, for example, but once that direction saturated companies started going for something else instead.

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

If everything is acidic, just throw some base in. If it's too sweet, throw some salt in. We'll get to a point where subtle service is something to be admired and used more.

That sounds like watering down an extreme trend. Did that ever work?

Originally Posted by C.A.

As long as there is exploration and expansion of context, there will always be something new. And whatever makes the obstacle or limitation can also become the source of inspiration.

Using saturation against itself in a form or parody or vengence or looking it under a different light. I like this.

Originally Posted by aohige

As long as you keep your mind young, you can continue to enjoy many things in life without much pessimism.
Child-like sensitivity isn't always a bad thing.

People use the phrase "you're easily amused" as a negative connotation, but I disagree.
It's a compliment and a sign of your tolerance and flexible adaptability.





... in other words, I can enjoy HOTD or P&S just fine, without the need to advocate my "sophisticated taste" to others.

Well, I did ask that in my op post. If being easily satisfied cancels any reason for innovesion or change.

Originally Posted by Scrya

It's like a cycle of fads. One style of anime will be interesting now, and one style will be interesting later. It's not just a scale of good or bad.

As for ecchi... I'm not sure. I can't say it's a fad with that. Maybe it'll eventually be fashionable to have clothes on? Or we could have different fetishes as to what they're doing, a fetish being like how quite a few people are into tentacles.

The question is what triggers the passing of one trend to another. A hit in sales of something? A famous event? The fashion designers' latest creation?

Originally Posted by Eater of All

I imagine mecha was all the rage one or two decades ago, for example, but once that direction saturated companies started going for something else instead.

That has a lot to do with technology allowing human figures to look and act more realistically, allowing genres like fighting shounen or romances to not look ridiculous anymore. Mecha in the 70's were an easy way to show action without much attention to realism regarding joint movements or things blowing up.

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

That has a lot to do with technology allowing human figures to look and act more realistically, allowing genres like fighting shounen or romances to not look ridiculous anymore. Mecha in the 70's were an easy way to show action without much attention to realism regarding joint movements or things blowing up.

Yes, all forms of art changes with medium, especially time based mediums, which includes animation.

The advancement of technology allows an art form to explore in more ways and achieve results previously impossible.

But for animation, achieving realism isn't one of the things that most animators want. Animation in the first place was about bringing inanimate objects and things that aren't real into reality. Animation will always have a lack or rather a lesser need of realism.

Animation is a time based medium that can make use suspension of disbelief easily. In the other hand live-action filming is harder to create suspension of disbelief but deals with realism better.

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by C.A.

Animation will always have a lack or rather a lesser need of realism.

Yes but such genres generally require a bit more realism than mecha because they are a bit closer to reality.

I mean, we don't have fighting robots (yet) but we do have romances and martial arts that require some basic realism.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Scrya

As for ecchi... I'm not sure. I can't say it's a fad with that.

Sexuality is ALWAYS IN STYLE.
Ever since we were living in caves.

[Kayin]

A friend of my linked an interesting video article about this very subject. Shows like High School of the Dead are probably going to become a lot more common.

[roriconfan]

^ This video pretty much says that anyone growing up with anime will want animated porn as an adult.
Seriously?

And that hentai are cheap and a sure way to make money.
Really?

And that childbirth in Japan is very low.

Well how could it not be? The adults are watching hentai instead of doing the real thing! Talk about a problem squearing itself.

It is also about the economy being bad and many fans don't pay for anime, so the industry is cutting down on the budget in future projects. Now the problem is cubed.

And it’s about piracy. Oh great, the problem just entered the 4th dimension.

But at least we know the root of all these evils. Money!

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

^ This video pretty much says that anyone growing up with anime will want animated porn as an adult.
Seriously?

And that hentai are cheap and a sure way to make money.
Really?

More like the reporter can't tell the difference between late night anime (including fanservice shows) and hentai. No surprise there though, I can't remember the last time that I read a mainstream press article about my hobbies where I couldn't find inaccuracies. The only question is whether its a genuine accident or whether the reporter wanted to sex it up by talking about porn.

Also, I suspect that the internet has been cutting into anime's market share in general, not just because of piracy. There's a ton of things online to distract people from watching anime.

[roriconfan]

So is the anime market now playing it safe with low-budget works because no matter how well-made their works are, they will still sell the same?