(L) Yosuga no Sora

[omimon]

This is one of those incest anime series that is actually tasteful. It's 100% serious. Sora is clearly best girl.

[Brother Coa]

^agreed 100%, played Visual Novel dozen times so far. Her route is the best.

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by omimon

This is one of those incest anime series that is actually tasteful. It's 100% serious. Sora is clearly best girl.

I'm still amazed that more eroge-to-anime adaptations haven't used YnS' style of incorporating their 18+ elements and the branching story format. I would have liked to see the anime adaptation Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate use YnS' omnibus format for just 2 heroines, but that obviously didn't happen.

I mean, YnS was a bestselling series. That proves beyond any doubt that this style of eroge-to-anime adaptation can be viable. Check out these sales figures:

Originally Posted by hyl

....
Eventhough i had mixed feelings for YnS, it did end up being one of the more succesfull eroge adaptation when it comes to sales.

Yosuga no Sora *1,257+*6,552=*7,809 (4, including cumulative sales of all versions) (feel.)
2011/01/26 *1,372 Vol. 2 (Three episodes up to Vol. 4)
2011/02/23 *1,164 Vol. 3
2011/03/23 *1,234 Vol. 4
2010/12/22 *6,423 Migiwa Kuzuha (Four episodes up to Yorihime Nao)
2011/01/26 *6,061 Amatsume Akira
2011/02/23 *5,908 Yorihime Nao
2011/03/23 *6,475 Kasugano Sora Limited Edition (Five episodes)
2011/04/06 *1,341 Kasugano Sora Standard Edition

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=109699

Guess the so-called "bandwagon effect" didn't work out here. Anyway, I'm glad that the main animation studio for YnS, named "feel.", is getting new work with the anime adaptation of Ushinawareta Mirai wo Motomete. Sadly I haven't heard of anything new for YnS' director, Takeo Takahashi.

[relentlessflame]

I think there are so many factors that go into it that I'm not sure it's that easy to make lightning strike twice. For one, there aren't that many eroge with a serious story where the sex is an integral part of it. It's worth noting that they never even tried to make an all-ages version of Yosuga no Sora because you just can't without totally rewriting the core story. The way they did it here to tell all the stories but still have it gradually build up to Sora's route at the end (the one that most people were anticipating) was a stroke of genius (plus figuring out the puzzle of the episode structure created a sense of mystery during the broadcast, and represented the "decision point" structure of the game). Also, speaking of the BDs, this was one of the nicest collectors sets I've ever seen in all my time collecting R2 anime; the way they sold it as 4 independent volumes but with boxes to entice people to collect it all was smart, and it's an excellent keepsake that emphasizes the beautiful art from the game. Plus, add the OST that wisely remixed music from the game with beautiful new tunes, and these were also distributed with the BDs rather than being sold separately, giving a further reason to collect it all. To top it all off, it was right as the "imouto" boom was in its prime, and handled it in a way that was risqué and definitely got people talking. (I think few who watched the show will soon forget the climax (literally) of Episode 11, or the deliberate misdirection in the end of Episode 12.) It was almost an "experience anime" (being there at the time leaves a strong impression on you), and those are the sorts of anime that tend to sell well. Just one of those cases where it was the right work given to the right staff with the right producers and companies involved.

So yeah, I don't know how they can reproduce the success, but I suppose it's worth keeping an eye open for the next case where the stars might align.

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I think there are so many factors that go into it that I'm not sure it's that easy to make lightning strike twice.

No, you can't "make" lightning strike twice without a storm in the area and a funny kind of laser. But you can forecast the weather or seed clouds and build a bunch of lightning rods in the area you want to be hit.

Speaking of "forecasting the weather," I have to wonder whose idea it was to air the anime adaptation of YnS in the same season as Ore no Imouto ga Konnani Kawaii Wake ga Nai's first season (was it because the Oct.-Dec. 2010 season in general was part of the "imouto character boom" you mentioned?). Some fan artists have fused the two in rather interesting ways.

Images

A Match Made in Heaven?

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Do we have more in common than we can possibly imagine?

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame

For one, there aren't that many eroge with a serious story where the sex is an integral part of it. It's worth noting that they never even tried to make an all-ages version of Yosuga no Sora because you just can't without totally rewriting the core story.

I can think of one, which is Tenshi no Inai Jyuunigatsu released in 2003 by Leaf. One of the earliest English reviews for it said the following:

From the old Freetype.net review site:
Tenshi is one romance AVG that won't be heading to the game consoles, for the very fact that sex is too central to the story. The protagonist's relationships with the heroines are always physical and tense, and sex is driven by motive, be it to get close to someone, to seek vainly for love, to find atonement, or just to feel alive. To be honest, you're likely to find far more sex in many other titles our there, but perhaps because of the brevity of the game (too brief, in fact), and the relevance of the sex to the plot, it comes across being more intensified.
. . . .
This is the impression Tenshi leaves on you when you walk away from it. One might question the game's cynicism, but there's no doubting its sincerity to treat eroticism with the kind of maturity a good adult PC game deserves.

But back to YnS, given what info in English is available for it, I fail to see how the 18+ elements are essential to the non-Nao-non-Sora routes.

Spoiler for Anime events:

In those two routes, the 18+ elements are essential to Nao's route (because of her history with Haruka when they were neighbours) and Sora's route because her route wouldn't be quite as jarring if that threshold wasn't crossed, right?

Could you fill me in on just how those elements are crucial to the routes of the other characters? I feel they might have been able to gloss over most of that in the anime.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

The way they did it here to tell all the stories but still have it gradually build up to Sora's route at the end (the one that most people were anticipating) was a stroke of genius (plus figuring out the puzzle of the episode structure created a sense of mystery during the broadcast, and represented the "decision point" structure of the game).

Yes, the decision point structure was one of the best "features" of the anime. I hear that they were able to make it in the form of forks rather than starting afresh (as was the case with Amagami SS) because the original game was made with few choices that determined which path the player went to rather than a large series of choices that built up a specific heroine's affection with the player character. The forking structure seriously needs to be done with more eroge-to-anime adaptations so as to encompass more plotlines rather than give us "amalgamation" plotlines that play to too many fandoms and please none.

And, of course, given the strength of the imouto audience, why wouldn't they save "the best for last" so as to keep them watching all the way through? In fact, Sora turned out to be so popular they made a visual clone of her design for the anime adaptation of Walkure Romanze, just by changing the colour of her hair, eyes, and clothing to make Lisa Eostole. They even left her with the same voice actress as Sora had!

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Also, speaking of the BDs, this was one of the nicest collectors sets I've ever seen in all my time collecting R2 anime; the way they sold it as 4 independent volumes but with boxes to entice people to collect it all was smart, and it's an excellent keepsake that emphasizes the beautiful art from the game. Plus, add the OST that wisely remixed music from the game with beautiful new tunes, and these were also distributed with the BDs rather than being sold separately, giving a further reason to collect it all.

Do you have a link to a site showing the exact contents of the BD sets? Many R2 anime sets that have 12 episodes or less are notorious for having an extremely low episode-per-BD ratio, but at least it looks like they made up for it by releasing the OST from the anime. Speaking of that, I remember an early PV for the anime included a very nice guitar theme from the game. Did they include PVs for the anime in the BD set too? How about the original soundtrack from the game?

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

To top it all off, it was right as the "imouto" boom was in its prime, and handled it in a way that was risqué and definitely got people talking. (I think few who watched the show will soon forget the climax (literally) of Episode 11, or the deliberate misdirection in the end of Episode 12.)

I was under the impression that imouto characters were the "safe bet" in VN and eroge titles. I mean, hasn't that audience been absolutely bonkers over them as far back as Nemu Asakura from the first Da Capo game? Or even Noemi Itou, the little sister character from a 1998 eroge titled With You that also happened to be the first major title illustrated by Takashi Hashimoto (who was one of the main artists for YnS), and who was so famous her character design managed to be the longest-lasting piece from that old game in fandom, above the game's plot and other characters?

And everyone loves some nice twists. I heard, however, that the anime intensifies some of the game's situations; the famous episode 11 moment, for instance, was tamer in the game. Clearly such exaggeration helped the anime's sales.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

It was almost an "experience anime" (being there at the time leaves a strong impression on you), and those are the sorts of anime that tend to sell well. Just one of those cases where it was the right work given to the right staff with the right producers and companies involved.

Your last sentence makes it all the more mysterious as to why the director for the anime adaptation of YnS, Takeo Takahashi, to date hasn't gotten more work despite the hand he had with YnS' success.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

So yeah, I don't know how they can reproduce the success, but I suppose it's worth keeping an eye open for the next case where the stars might align.

Unlike trying to predict exactly where lightning might strike next, I believe they already know all the elements involved that when included are likely to make another success. Another eroge-to-anime adaptation with the same care, forking storyline mechanic, and lack of fear towards featuring 18+ elements could be similarly successful. I look back at a tragedy-centric eroge title like Moshimo Ashita ga Harenaraba and wonder if Palette should have adapted that to an anime in the style of YnS (they could have made the main fork between the two Nonosaki sisters, for instance) instead of Mashiro Iro Symphony. The success of Key's tragedy-centric titles proves that everyone loves a good "nakige" and an anime adaptation of Moshiraba, in the style of YnS, could have done very well. It's a shame that Palette and other eroge companies didn't seem to take note of YnS' success as an anime adaptation and make their own eroge-to-anime adaptations in a similar style--there could have been some very nice ones out by now if they did.

So yes, the stars are already in place. Someone just needs to take another chance on this.

The only "spiritual descendent" I can find of YnS' anime adaptation's plot is the "We'll be alone, but we'll be alone together" ending from White Album 2's CODA chapter. It also happens to be a fan-favourite. I'm sure that if they animate that ending for another season of WA2's anime adaptation, lots of people will be happy to buy the BDs.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Could you fill me in on just how those elements are crucial to the routes of the other characters? I feel they might have been able to gloss over most of that in the anime.

No, you're right. In those other routes, they're not essential/integral. But, I don't think you'd really tell Yosuga no Sora's story without Nao and Sora, and (in the anime) having those elements be present in the first two arcs helped set the stage for the increased importance in the arcs to come.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

The forking structure seriously needs to be done with more eroge-to-anime adaptations so as to encompass more plotlines rather than give us "amalgamation" plotlines that play to too many fandoms and please none.

Not all games have plots that are equally suited for this, of course. Particularly, those that revolve around a common/linear sequence of events would be subject to a lot of redundancy in that approach, and would probably take too long to tell if you want them to still make sense. Stories like Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate and Walkure Romanze, for example, would be pretty disjointed if you told them this way in such a tight time constraint. Some others would work well, though.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

In fact, Sora turned out to be so popular they made a visual clone of her design for the anime adaptation of Walkure Romanze, just by changing the colour of her hair, eyes, and clothing to make Lisa Eostole. They even left her with the same voice actress as Sora had!

Well... it's not as if Sora is a totally unique character archetype to begin with, but she's certainly one of the more memorable/iconic ones.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Do you have a link to a site showing the exact contents of the BD sets? Many R2 anime sets that have 12 episodes or less are notorious for having an extremely low episode-per-BD ratio, but at least it looks like they made up for it by releasing the OST from the anime.

http://www.starchild.co.jp/special/y...uct/bddvd.html

It's not as if it's cheap by any means, but it focused on less volumes with more stuff to justify the higher price.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Speaking of that, I remember an early PV for the anime included a very nice guitar theme from the game. Did they include PVs for the anime in the BD set too? How about the original soundtrack from the game?

Have to go back to listen to the old PV and see if I can find it, but the original game soundtrack was also sold back in the day. I'm not sure if the BDs included the original PVs; should check.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

I was under the impression that imouto characters were the "safe bet" in VN and eroge titles. I mean, hasn't that audience been absolutely bonkers over them as far back as Nemu Asakura from the first Da Capo game? Or even Noemi Itou, the little sister character from a 1998 eroge titled With You that also happened to be the first major title illustrated by Takashi Hashimoto (who was one of the main artists for YnS), and who was so famous her character design managed to be the longest-lasting piece from that old game in fandom, above the game's plot and other characters?

Oh sure, it was always a fairly popular trait in eroge, but it was the popularity of light novels and the shift of VN writers to become LN writers that pushed it further. As you pointed out, it's no surprise that this and OreImo aired in the same season; it's the poster child of how the imouto-moe fever from eroge transitioned into Light Novels with its blatant lampshading of the source of the trend.

But the main thing is that this was the first all-ages anime that actually showed them doing it; with previous eroge adaptations, like Da Capo, it clearly happened, but was all off-screen. For the anime world, this was seen to be pushing the limits.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

And everyone loves some nice twists. I heard, however, that the anime intensifies some of the game's situations; the famous episode 11 moment, for instance, was tamer in the game. Clearly such exaggeration helped the anime's sales.

Well, anime has the unique characteristic of being in 24-minute chunks, and with that being the penultimate episode it was a nice cliffhanger. But also, they set Kozue's character up to be a sort of victim of Haruka's immorality and the voice that didn't accept what he did. That actually didn't happen in the game either, but was necessary to deliver the ambivalent message at the end of the anime. The game has a slightly-different message, but then again it's an 18+ title, so it doesn't have to worry as much about sending an immoral message.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Unlike trying to predict exactly where lightning might strike next, I believe they already know all the elements involved that when included are likely to make another success. Another eroge-to-anime adaptation with the same care, forking storyline mechanic, and lack of fear towards featuring 18+ elements could be similarly successful.

Maybe... but I think it wouldn't be as "edgy" to try to copy/paste it again. Being the first to push the limits is always more successful. Someone coming along and try to "imitate" this show's success will be compared to the predecessor and often come up short. It has to be the right work to warrant it... Plus, I think the concern over governmental intervention is a bit higher now than it was before, so there may be a bit of "voluntary restraint" going on too.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

I look back at a tragedy-centric eroge title like Moshimo Ashita ga Harenaraba and wonder if Palette should have adapted that to an anime in the style of YnS (they could have made the main fork between the two Nonosaki sisters, for instance) instead of Mashiro Iro Symphony. The success of Key's tragedy-centric titles proves that everyone loves a good "nakige" and an anime adaptation of Moshiraba, in the style of YnS, could have done very well. It's a shame that Palette and other eroge companies didn't seem to take note of YnS' success as an anime adaptation and make their own eroge-to-anime adaptations in a similar style--there could have been some very nice ones out by now if they did.

I'd say that digging in the back catalogue is of limited value unless you're a big name like Key or Type Moon (and can get a big-name studio like KyoAni or Ufotable). Mashiro-iro Symphony was new and featured really eye-catching Izumi Tsubasu character designs, so that alone presents more marketing opportunities. (Not that I have anything against Kusukusu (Couscous?) -- love that style too, personally.) So I just don't think anyone would fund it, and someone like Palette likely doesn't have the wherewithal to fund it on their own just to promote an old game in their library when they have newer works they'd probably rather promote. And in the end... nakige is sort of difficult. Again, it works well for Key, but a lot of romantic dramas in general have a tougher time. (Like, consider something like White Album 2; from what I can tell it's fairly well-regarded among fans, but the sales were rather average. And that's from Leaf -- still one of the bigger brands.)

In the end, I agree that a good anime could probably be made if it follows the pattern. But I'm just not sure if it's where I'd bet my money if it were me. Of course, if anyone had a sure-fire way of betting only on hits, they'd be rich. ;p

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

No, you're right. In those other routes, they're not essential/integral. But, I don't think you'd really tell Yosuga no Sora's story without Nao and Sora, and (in the anime) having those elements be present in the first two arcs helped set the stage for the increased importance in the arcs to come.

Well, perhaps in so many words the first two routes were "setting the atmosphere." I have a feeling based on what I found out about the game that Kazuha's route was heavily abridged for the anime (possibly because they didn't want to tip their hand so early and because it was a "warm-up" round?). Do you remember what it was they cut from Kazuha's game route for the anime version?

Come to think of it, isn't Motoka's route from the anime nothing like its game version? The "dramatic needs" of a bunch of end-of-episode clips with a strict time limit are a lot different from what you can make in a game.

Also, I hear that the heroines in the original game had their plotlines set up in "pairs" or sub-branches to their backstories (you get in one branch, and then you have two heroines to choose from). Akira and Kazuha were a pair, and so were Nao and Sora. Yahiro wasn't in the original release of the game, but I bet that if she was (and there are indications that this was the case) she and Motoka would have been a branching pair of heroines (given their friendship and frequent drinking get-togethers). That could have left Kozue as the "odd one out" or "default ending."

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Not all games have plots that are equally suited for this, of course. Particularly, those that revolve around a common/linear sequence of events would be subject to a lot of redundancy in that approach, and would probably take too long to tell if you want them to still make sense. Stories like Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate and Walkure Romanze, for example, would be pretty disjointed if you told them this way in such a tight time constraint. Some others would work well, though.

By "tight time constraint," do you mean "12 episodes or less"? I remember how Photokano's anime adaptation tried to cram so many heroines into a 12 episode run and the result was that each heroine only got one unique episode, all of shoehorned into connecting with the plot events in the beginning few. I do suppose that Amagami SS was lucky enough to get enough funding for a full batch of 24 episodes with its repeating 4-episode arc for each heroine, plus a second season. I still feel we should have gotten an animated arc each for Hibiki Tsukuhara (the main swim coach and Haruka's best friend) and Maya Takahashi (Junichi's teacher) though. Those were good opportunities they missed.

Speaking of KoiChoco, one way I think that the anime series could have used a forking structure is the end of the "common route" with Chisato. The main branch I believe could have worked with Chisato and Mifuyu (since if Yuuki betrays his close friendship with Chisato with Mifuyu it's up for major emotional impact, doubly so if it was in an 18+ manner). Then a second (12-episode?) season could focus on fan favourites Satsuki and Michiru, with Isara included where they saw fit. Instead, we got an "amalgamation route" with only one heroine's ending. Not very satisfying for fans of the other heroines, sadly, unlike what happened with YnS and Amagami.

Still, I believe the trick for this formula to work (as opposed to starting over again with each heroine as Amagami SS did) would be to find commonalities within closely-plotted heroines and use them as "branching heroines" like YnS did.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well... it's not as if Sora is a totally unique character archetype to begin with, but she's certainly one of the more memorable/iconic ones.

Well, she is definitely one of the most influential imouto heroines in recent memory. A pity that her seiyuu, Hiroko Taguchi, didn't garner more mainstream fame and acclaim after voicing Sora for the anime adaptation of YnS.

There is also the fact that the anime staff knew how to capitalize on her traits. Take a gander at the following screenshot.

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Just LOOK at her.

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This was from the very first episode (and one of the PVs)--her expression is exuding "moe" from every pore. To my knowledge, she doesn't make this kind of expression in the game itself, so this apparently is one area the animation did better than the original game. Her expression is almost enough to make you forget that she's clingy, jealous, obsessive, and depending on the route chosen, only wants to stay in a co-dependent relationship with her brother instead of making her own friends and gaining a measure of independence. Yep, the animation staff knew what they were doing here.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

http://www.starchild.co.jp/special/y...uct/bddvd.html

It's not as if it's cheap by any means, but it focused on less volumes with more stuff to justify the higher price.

I can't read Japanese, but I suppose the topmost blu-ray option is the "Sora-only basic edition," while the second from the top is the "special version" of the Sora-only BD pack, right? The others seem to be arranged by each character's route--do Kazuha's and Nao's have the least in terms of bonus items, then?

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Have to go back to listen to the old PV and see if I can find it, but the original game soundtrack was also sold back in the day. I'm not sure if the BDs included the original PVs; should check.

The PV I'm looking for played the sequence of the "initial train ride" into the Kasugano twin's new hometown (but with different voice recording than what ended up in the final version of the episode). The theme playing in the background is a nice guitar theme once the clip on the train ends, but there's a small piece of music featuring a nice woodwind playing during the train segment. Then it goes into a montage of scenes from the first episode, such as very nice scenery, and some silent clips of the characters doing things in the first episode, such as Kazuha telling Akira in no uncertain terms to put on some sunscreen, Kozue meeting the twins for the first time, Nao relaxing in the bath, etc., ending with the infamous scene of Sora meeting Haru at night. Is this PV on the BDs or the like? I remember it being very well made, and very soothing to listen to. It (and the series itself) made the fictional countryside of Hozumi look very beautiful.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Oh sure, it was always a fairly popular trait in eroge, but it was the popularity of light novels and the shift of VN writers to become LN writers that pushed it further. As you pointed out, it's no surprise that this and OreImo aired in the same season; it's the poster child of how the imouto-moe fever from eroge transitioned into Light Novels with its blatant lampshading of the source of the trend.

Wasn't there an early episode in OreImo where Kirino opens her closet and her eroge collection comes falling out? I think that was a tacit admission that the imouto craze was transitioning from VNs to LNs. And yes, airing in the same season may have been a bit of cutthroat competition, but it certainly seems both made out very well. Sora and Kirino certainly had many significant similarities.

Spoiler for OreImo and YnS:

Was it more than a coincidence that both series concluded on air with the same general situation at the end?

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

But the main thing is that this was the first all-ages anime that actually showed them doing it; with previous eroge adaptations, like Da Capo, it clearly happened, but was all off-screen. For the anime world, this was seen to be pushing the limits.

Pushing the limits could have happened much earlier. I look at the first White Album anime adaptation and wonder if it could have used the story branches instead of the amalgamation route. You could, for instance, limit the story branches between Yuki and Rina and Yuki and Yayoi. Both of those non-Yuki branches could involve sexual betrayal (one of those plot elements you can't really tone down without blunting the impact), the "visual elements" for which could have been included in the style of YnS. Of course, this is assuming this kind of plot arrangement would be the primary concern, which it certainly wasn't (the focus was clearly on getting big-name seiyuus to contribute music to the WA1 project). None of those seiyuus would have been at all likely to work on the 18+ elements.

And then there is the matter of what came before. Didn't the first anime adaptation of KimiNozo feature a similar level of close-to-18+ elements as well?

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, anime has the unique characteristic of being in 24-minute chunks, and with that being the penultimate episode it was a nice cliffhanger. But also, they set Kozue's character up to be a sort of victim of Haruka's immorality and the voice that didn't accept what he did. That actually didn't happen in the game either, but was necessary to deliver the ambivalent message at the end of the anime. The game has a slightly-different message, but then again it's an 18+ title, so it doesn't have to worry as much about sending an immoral message.

It's much too bad that the following screenshot is what Kozue got at the series' conclusion. She deserved an animated route of her own.

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Is this all she gets?

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I heard once that the seiyuu for Kozue in the game isn't the same as the one in the anime, unlike almost everyone else in the anime. Is this true?

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Maybe... but I think it wouldn't be as "edgy" to try to copy/paste it again. Being the first to push the limits is always more successful. Someone coming along and try to "imitate" this show's success will be compared to the predecessor and often come up short. It has to be the right work to warrant it... Plus, I think the concern over governmental intervention is a bit higher now than it was before, so there may be a bit of "voluntary restraint" going on too.

If there's a will and enough funding, there's a way. This is one bandwagon that deserves to get started, and there are many unique stories to be told that can't be reduced to "all-ages" ratings that would likely head off unfair comparisons.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I'd say that digging in the back catalogue is of limited value unless you're a big name like Key or Type Moon (and can get a big-name studio like KyoAni or Ufotable). Mashiro-iro Symphony was new and featured really eye-catching Izumi Tsubasu character designs, so that alone presents more marketing opportunities. (Not that I have anything against Kusukusu (Couscous?) -- love that style too, personally.)

I thought that KusuKusu was based on the Japanese onomatopoeia for the sound of someone sobbing.

Checking some data shows that Leaf really pushed it with their anime adaptations for the first To Heart game and Comic Party, both of which were late 90s games and still got anime adaptations years later. YnS was 2 years old once the anime started airing, so I believe this shows that going in the back catalogue isn't always a bad idea. And didn't the use of an animation studio like feel. show that even "lesser" animation studios can get the job done if properly directed and funded?

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

And in the end... nakige is sort of difficult. Again, it works well for Key, but a lot of romantic dramas in general have a tougher time. (Like, consider something like White Album 2; from what I can tell it's fairly well-regarded among fans, but the sales were rather average. And that's from Leaf -- still one of the bigger brands.)

I would have to agree with "nakige is difficult." Tragic endings/stories are hard to make so that they sell well. Much as I think that Leaf's Tenshi no inai 12-gatsu was a groundbreaking title, there were no happy endings in there, so adapting it well to anime would be very difficult. And how was WA2's sales considered "average" given that was based on a "kami-ge" (or a game so good even God could not make it better)?

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

In the end, I agree that a good anime could probably be made if it follows the pattern. But I'm just not sure if it's where I'd bet my money if it were me.

There's so much potential here, but it's too bad that it's being considered as "not enough of a sure thing." The following screenshot from Palette's Moshiraba makes me wonder just how it would have turned out as an anime in the formula of YnS but coupled with the tragic stories that Key is known for:

Images

Enough to make her and you cry

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[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Well, perhaps in so many words the first two routes were "setting the atmosphere." I have a feeling based on what I found out about the game that Kazuha's route was heavily abridged for the anime (possibly because they didn't want to tip their hand so early and because it was a "warm-up" round?). Do you remember what it was they cut from Kazuha's game route for the anime version?

Well, really, all the routes are severely abridged and were structured such that each arc had its own distinct flavour and theme. But honestly, it's been so long since I played the game that I'd have to go back and read through it again to remember all that happened exactly.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Come to think of it, isn't Motoka's route from the anime nothing like its game version? The "dramatic needs" of a bunch of end-of-episode clips with a strict time limit are a lot different from what you can make in a game.

At first I thought they were just going for a purely-comedic thing, but in the end they actually kinda/sorta did cover her route in the broadest of ways. But yeah, obviously, in the game it's a full route in its own light.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Also, I hear that the heroines in the original game had their plotlines set up in "pairs" or sub-branches to their backstories (you get in one branch, and then you have two heroines to choose from). Akira and Kazuha were a pair, and so were Nao and Sora. Yahiro wasn't in the original release of the game, but I bet that if she was (and there are indications that this was the case) she and Motoka would have been a branching pair of heroines (given their friendship and frequent drinking get-togethers). That could have left Kozue as the "odd one out" or "default ending."

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Spoiler for Comparison to the game structure

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Originally Posted by Mazryonh

By "tight time constraint," do you mean "12 episodes or less"? I remember how Photokano's anime adaptation tried to cram so many heroines into a 12 episode run and the result was that each heroine only got one unique episode, all of shoehorned into connecting with the plot events in the beginning few. I do suppose that Amagami SS was lucky enough to get enough funding for a full batch of 24 episodes with its repeating 4-episode arc for each heroine, plus a second season. I still feel we should have gotten an animated arc each for Hibiki Tsukuhara (the main swim coach and Haruka's best friend) and Maya Takahashi (Junichi's teacher) though. Those were good opportunities they missed.

Yeah, 12 episodes or less is difficult for a plot-driven game unless you can really find a way to focus each arc. Here, they were able to do it because in a sense every arc was telling a different angle of Sora. In Amagami SS, they basically just told short stories for each that weren't really bound by much other than the setting itself.

And well... there will always people who want routes for the secondary heroines. I thought it was at least thoughtful to add episodes 25 & 26 to the original anime to try to briefly allude to some other routes even if they were short.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Speaking of KoiChoco, one way I think that the anime series could have used a forking structure is the end of the "common route" with Chisato. The main branch I believe could have worked with Chisato and Mifuyu (since if Yuuki betrays his close friendship with Chisato with Mifuyu it's up for major emotional impact, doubly so if it was in an 18+ manner). Then a second (12-episode?) season could focus on fan favourites Satsuki and Michiru, with Isara included where they saw fit. Instead, we got an "amalgamation route" with only one heroine's ending. Not very satisfying for fans of the other heroines, sadly, unlike what happened with YnS and Amagami.

Spoilers

Spoiler for Comparison to KoiChoco game/anime

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Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Still, I believe the trick for this formula to work (as opposed to starting over again with each heroine as Amagami SS did) would be to find commonalities within closely-plotted heroines and use them as "branching heroines" like YnS did.

Yup, well, really I think it's about looking at the original story and the episode count available, and figuring out how to best do justice to the story.

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Spoiler for Comparison to D.C. III anime

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Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Well, she is definitely one of the most influential imouto heroines in recent memory. A pity that her seiyuu, Hiroko Taguchi, didn't garner more mainstream fame and acclaim after voicing Sora for the anime adaptation of YnS.

There is also the fact that the anime staff knew how to capitalize on her traits. Take a gander at the following screenshot.

Images

Just LOOK at her.

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This was from the very first episode (and one of the PVs)--her expression is exuding "moe" from every pore. To my knowledge, she doesn't make this kind of expression in the game itself, so this apparently is one area the animation did better than the original game. Her expression is almost enough to make you forget that she's clingy, jealous, obsessive, and depending on the route chosen, only wants to stay in a co-dependent relationship with her brother instead of making her own friends and gaining a measure of independence. Yep, the animation staff knew what they were doing here.

Whether this particular expression was apparent in the game sprites and CGs or not, the anime was definitely emulating the game by trying to make Sora exude "moe." She's endearing in the way she looks and acts throughout the game... and even often when she gets jealous and clingy. But yeah, the anime did do a good job of knowing what their selling points were: 1) Sora, 2) setting, 3) sensuality/sex. That sort of clear vision of what you're about certainly helps a lot.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

I can't read Japanese, but I suppose the topmost blu-ray option is the "Sora-only basic edition," while the second from the top is the "special version" of the Sora-only BD pack, right? The others seem to be arranged by each character's route--do Kazuha's and Nao's have the least in terms of bonus items, then?

Sora's BD had a special bonus for the first-press edition that was the little doll as shown. Volumes 1 & 3 contain the soundtrack CDs, and Volumes 2 & 4 contain the "soine" (sleeping together) Drama CDs. 2 & 4 also contain boxes to house the corresponding pair, while volume 4 also contains the "super box" that holds both boxes. So although you could just buy the arc you liked, it's really setup so that you'll want to buy them all to get the soundtrack CDs, the drama CDs, and to fill all the boxes to create the full set.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

The PV I'm looking for played the sequence of the "initial train ride" into the Kasugano twin's new hometown (but with different voice recording than what ended up in the final version of the episode). The theme playing in the background is a nice guitar theme once the clip on the train ends, but there's a small piece of music featuring a nice woodwind playing during the train segment. Then it goes into a montage of scenes from the first episode, such as very nice scenery, and some silent clips of the characters doing things in the first episode, such as Kazuha telling Akira in no uncertain terms to put on some sunscreen, Kozue meeting the twins for the first time, Nao relaxing in the bath, etc., ending with the infamous scene of Sora meeting Haru at night. Is this PV on the BDs or the like? I remember it being very well made, and very soothing to listen to. It (and the series itself) made the fictional countryside of Hozumi look very beautiful.

Finally found the PV, and yes, the songs are from the various OSTs. The start of the PV is from Anime OST 1 Track 3, then it switches to the Game OST version of the same song (don't have the CD, but it's in the game's extra mode, and also plays when you start the game for the Main Menu), then the very end is the beginning of Anime OST 1 Track 2.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Wasn't there an early episode in OreImo where Kirino opens her closet and her eroge collection comes falling out? I think that was a tacit admission that the imouto craze was transitioning from VNs to LNs. And yes, airing in the same season may have been a bit of cutthroat competition, but it certainly seems both made out very well. Sora and Kirino certainly had many significant similarities.

Spoiler for OreImo and YnS:

Was it more than a coincidence that both series concluded on air with the same general situation at the end?

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Spoiler for Comparison to OreImo anime ending

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Originally Posted by Mazryonh

And then there is the matter of what came before. Didn't the first anime adaptation of KimiNozo feature a similar level of close-to-18+ elements as well?

Yeah, fair enough. I think of it being a bit different because it's more of a "soap opera" from the get-go, but I suppose it's another eroge adaptation that'd be really hard to pull off convincingly without at least allusions to sex.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

It's much too bad that the following screenshot is what Kozue got at the series' conclusion. She deserved an animated route of her own.

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Is this all she gets?

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I heard once that the seiyuu for Kozue in the game isn't the same as the one in the anime, unlike almost everyone else in the anime. Is this true?

I think it's the same? At least, if not it sounds very similar. And yeah, what happened in the anime to Kozue is totally anime-original, but you need to play the fandisk for the "what if" story.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Checking some data shows that Leaf really pushed it with their anime adaptations for the first To Heart game and Comic Party, both of which were late 90s games and still got anime adaptations years later. YnS was 2 years old once the anime started airing, so I believe this shows that going in the back catalogue isn't always a bad idea. And didn't the use of an animation studio like feel. show that even "lesser" animation studios can get the job done if properly directed and funded?

Well, Leaf/Aquaplus is a gain a bit of a franchise-maker, and To Heart is an icon. It's like having a remake of Kanon or Fate/stay night many years later; there are certain properties and brands that will support it on brand power alone. Yosuga no Sora happening a while after the game release isn't that surprising, though, because it does take at least a year to actually produce an anime under normal circumstances. So that doesn't really count as the "back catalogue" to me; it's still fairly recent as far as these things go. A lot of the eroge adaptations coming this fall are from games released in the last 2-3 years for similar reasons.

And well, it's not really the studio that matters, it's the director, writer, and producers. King Records has been producing/distributing eroge adaptations forever, so they're not strangers to the genre. But even if you do look at studios, feel worked either as main or secondary to all the Da Capo adaptations as well (prior to III, anyway). But mostly, I think it's the combo of director + writer in this case -- I give them lots of credit for both this and Spice and Wolf in terms of being good adaptations of the respective source material.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

I would have to agree with "nakige is difficult." Tragic endings/stories are hard to make so that they sell well. Much as I think that Leaf's Tenshi no inai 12-gatsu was a groundbreaking title, there were no happy endings in there, so adapting it well to anime would be very difficult. And how was WA2's sales considered "average" given that was based on a "kami-ge" (or a game so good even God could not make it better)?

Well, the WA2 anime sold around 3,500 units per volume on average, and as far as anime goes that's pretty average. Maybe even slightly-above average for eroge adaptations, honestly. This even though the game is very well-regarded, and the anime was fairly well-received. I find a lot of times that eroge adaptations are more to encourage people to buy the game, and less to sell the anime itself. It's only when it gets to be a bit of a phenomenon that the anime discs seem to sell really well, perhaps in addition to the game itself.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

At first I thought they were just going for a purely-comedic thing, but in the end they actually kinda/sorta did cover her route in the broadest of ways. But yeah, obviously, in the game it's a full route in its own light.

It certainly is an interesting way of fitting in a heroine route, and it's not often you see an anime with two openings and endings .

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Spoiler for Comparison to KoiChoco game/anime

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Agreed .

I'm also now reminded of the Hoshikaka anime and how it's romance was handled....

Yup, well, really I think it's about looking at the original story and the episode count available, and figuring out how to best do justice to the story.

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Spoiler for Comparison to D.C. III anime

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A little off topic, but even having enjoyed the Da Capo III anime for various reasons, two years and no sign of a new anime to conclude the story have left me very disappointed, especially since I still only have a general idea how the game actually ends .

Sora's BD had a special bonus for the first-press edition that was the little doll as shown. Volumes 1 & 3 contain the soundtrack CDs, and Volumes 2 & 4 contain the "soine" (sleeping together) Drama CDs. 2 & 4 also contain boxes to house the corresponding pair, while volume 4 also contains the "super box" that holds both boxes. So although you could just buy the arc you liked, it's really setup so that you'll want to buy them all to get the soundtrack CDs, the drama CDs, and to fill all the boxes to create the full set.

So, basically, pillow talk Drama CD's ?

Well, the WA2 anime sold around 3,500 units per volume on average, and as far as anime goes that's pretty average. Maybe even slightly-above average for eroge adaptations, honestly. This even though the game is very well-regarded, and the anime was fairly well-received. I find a lot of times that eroge adaptations are more to encourage people to buy the game, and less to sell the anime itself. It's only when it gets to be a bit of a phenomenon that the anime discs seem to sell really well, perhaps in addition to the game itself.

I seem to recall reading in the thread that the recent re-release of the VN for White Album 2 actually sold very well, which was treated as a positive sign. Sometimes there doesn't seem to be any real correlation between anime sales and the quality and/or reception of a work, especially in the eyes of more cynical anime viewers. I think it's also been pointed out the correlation with the big rise of one-cour shows to adaptions possibly placing more emphasis on advertising the source material than on actually adapting it well. Any thing under Kadokawa seems "doomed' to only have 10 episode adaptions, which hurts adapting the source material quite a bit.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Frontier

A little off topic, but even having enjoyed the Da Capo III anime for various reasons, two years and no sign of a new anime to conclude the story have left me very disappointed, especially since I still only have a general idea how the game actually ends .

Well... on the good news front, the official translation of the DCIII game is coming, so there will be finality at some point. I sort of think they're not going to adapt the rest of the game, because they kinda sorta added their own sense of finality in what they covered, even if it wasn't the heart of what the game covered.

Originally Posted by Frontier

So, basically, pillow talk Drama CD's ?

Well, yeah, partly. Soine CDs are actually a thing, and part of it is literally the sound of the character ostensibly sleeping next to the protagonist. Sometimes they'll mumble things in their sleep, have a bad dream, or wake up and talk to themselves, or whatever. It's kind of strange... but also sort of cute? If you search for them, you'll probably find examples out there.

Originally Posted by Frontier

I seem to recall reading in the thread that the recent re-release of the VN for White Album 2 actually sold very well, which was treated as a positive sign. Sometimes there doesn't seem to be any real correlation between anime sales and the quality and/or reception of a work, especially in the eyes of more cynical anime viewers. I think it's also been pointed out the correlation with the big rise of one-cour shows to adaptions possibly placing more emphasis on advertising the source material than on actually adapting it well. Any thing under Kadokawa seems "doomed' to only have 10 episode adaptions, which hurts adapting the source material quite a bit.

Definitely agree that the relationship between an anime's "critical reception" and sales is tenuous at best (sometimes aligned, but often opposed). And yeah, I do think one-cour anime adaptations are generally there to advertise the game (hence we argue that the anime BD sales tend to matter less)... but I suppose that, really, Yosuga no Sora isn't that different in that regard. It's just a matter of the strategy they choose based on what the game is like.

Kadokawa's label is sort of funny with their episode counts, but I'm trying to remember if they've published a VN adaptation under their own label in a while. The last one I can think of was Fortune Arterial, I think, and it actually managed to get 12 episodes (though it has its own issues that could be discussed). We'll see if they're handling any of the fall ones.

[Archon_Wing]

I gotta say, while Sora wasn't my favorite character of the series, her character design is damned great. It just oozes that kind of tragic shy girl beneath a moe exterior. Actually I like the designs in general, though the anime decided to up everyone's chest size for no real reason.

[TJR]

Originally Posted by Frontier

I seem to recall reading in the thread that the recent re-release of the VN for White Album 2 actually sold very well, which was treated as a positive sign.

That justifies the first season, but what about the second? With the game releases out of the way, there's less to promote, so the decision to produce a sequel may hinge more on anime sales (and/or related media, such as music).

At any rate, we don't have any reliable data on rerelease sales, and it's difficult to know how much of that success is attributable to the anime.

[Frontier]

Huh... well, I believe there's Setsuna and Kazusa fandisks coming out, though I don't know if that's something that would really get or need an anime to advertise. I have no clue how the music sales for WA2 went, but I'd imagine they ended up selling quite well considering the quality and quantity of them. You have the opening and ending music, insert songs, Madoka Yonezawa's songs, as well as the piano pieces.

Would there be anywhere to look that up, out of curiosity?

[TJR]

Originally Posted by Frontier

Huh... well, I believe there's Setsuna and Kazusa fandisks coming out, though I don't know if that's something that would really get or need an anime to advertise. I have no clue how the music sales for WA2 went, but I'd imagine they ended up selling quite well considering the quality and quantity of them. You have the opening and ending music, insert songs, Madoka Yonezawa's songs, as well as the piano pieces.

Would there be anywhere to look that up, out of curiosity?

Oricon tracks CD sales, which are usually circulated at the MyAnimeList forums. It looks to be around 5000 copies for the OP, 3500 for the vocal album, and 1000 for the OST.

[CrowKenobi]

Didn't expect this: Media Blasters Lists Yosuga no Sora Anime on N. American DVD

[Shinji103]

Holy hell. Well this one's going straight to the 18+ list.

[CrowKenobi]

Right Stuf lists it at 16+.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by CrowKenobi

Right Stuf lists it at 16+.

..............well, I suppose they could get away with that since the anime doesn't actually show anything beyond chests...................

[Archon_Wing]

Well, that's interesting. It won't be dubbed though, right? It'd be funny though.

Although I wonder how much are they gonna censor it. I mean Nao and Haru

Spoiler:

had that scene when they were really young, and I'd imagine there's a lot of people over here that would lose their shit over it

[marconii2002]

Yosuga no Sora will get something http://yaraon-blog.com/archives/80941