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Old 2008-11-25, 22:26   Link #1001
Mystique
Honyaku no Hime
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: In the eastern capital of the islands of the rising suns...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona View Post
I think you missed the point of what Harmonious was trying to say, but maybe I am wrong, so I prefer to let him reply. I think he didn't make a comparison with those women, nor I did.
I used an 'extreme flipside' of the coin just to toss in another perspective on the negative aspects of a society that is totally oppisite to the one I grew up in, since Harmonious pointed out the negative aspects of social and sexual liberation of women in western societies rather strongly.
Quote:
Divorce rates are what they are do to how current Western society views relationships. Premarital sex, promiscuity, dating, etc, are all part of this. Feminists call it women's sexual liberation, men consider it normal, but it all is the same disease.
Let's just say it struck a chord, i could link to him a few websites that dispel that statement instantly and within my post i've already poised questions to him about unloved marriages and affairs and abusive homes that kids grow up in. While he's not wrong, there are two (or more) sides to each situation, so it's just me bringing that up to the surface, not that either one of you mentioned it before.

I'm not sure i'll go with dating being related to divorces and men have had the luxury of promiscuity or mistresses for centuries, the only difference now is women aren't stoned for it should they stray, (in the West) but it's still a horrible act to bestill on someone else no matter who does it.

The reason we got into this side of the debate was cause i personally don't see relationships without kids or marriages a sign that couples are any less devoted to each other than a couple who are married and do have kids.
There are many special relationships that exist on both sides and there are many terrible and tragic ones too.

The rest, yeah we already went over it some weeks ago, so I know your view already
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Old 2008-11-25, 22:47   Link #1002
Narona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
Let's just say it struck a chord, i could link to him a few websites that dispel that statement instantly
And I saw a few debates (very late in night, while those which say the opposite at are prime tiume but whatever <_<) here in France that point many wrong things. So, it depends on the point of view, I think, and how the studies are done. The result can differ. What I think, ultimately, is that each person has to make his/her own opinion.

The problem are medias pressure, friends pressure, society pressure, parents pressure. From both side, sometimes people do something not because they think they are right, but because they feel forced to do it. Even now, nothing has changed about that. And in France, I think that going against the current society is taboo. The books who promote the current situation are promoted, the ones who denounce some pressures never get the highlights from the magazines and debates. The debates that promote it are more often in prime time than the few others that are aired very late in night. A bit unfair if you ask me. To make a choice that will have a better chance to please you through the time, you have to be aware of the opinions from both sides, not only one

Quote:
The reason we got into this side of the debate was cause i personally don't see relationships without kids or marriages a sign that couples are any less devoted to each other than a couple who are married and do have kids.
There are many special relationships that exist on both sides and there are many terrible and tragic ones too.
That, I fully agree. I didn't see his post from that point of view. They are couple who are not married (because they don't want. And in France, more and more people prefer to use the PACS, rather than getting married. It would be hard to explain it if you don't know what it is. Can you read french? I could give you a wikipedia link), and some who don't have kids. Because they don't want, or because they can't (it happens, sadly, but it doesn't mean that it could inevitably destroy a couple.)

So yeah, what i said can work this way too. You can choose a different path and find happiness ^^. I hope I was not misuderstood the last time we talked. I express my feelings from my point of view, but I know that this is a matter of point of view. What is right in my eyes, could be seen as wrong in my neightbor eyes.
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Old 2008-11-26, 03:47   Link #1003
Edgewalker
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Quote:
50 relationships and ends alone and bitter of those 50 relationships
This post has nothing to do with what you were saying, but your post reminded me of a bad experience I had one time back in my dreaded days of high school. I was assigned to work on a 2 person group project with one of the best looking girls ( probably top 5 ) in my school. All the other guys in class were stupidly jealous of me...but I couldn't care less. I didn't and still don't care about a girls looks that much. To me all women fall in to two categories:

Cat A: Women I would not do. ( about 25% of the female population near my age )
Cat B: Women I would do. ( the remaining 75% )

If you can't tell, I really don't put much weight on looks. Its either a pass or fail deal and after that its all personality. This is were the girl I was stuck with failed. Sure she was a nice person on the outside, but working with her was a nightmare...to make a long story short her kindness turned out to be a typical mask to hide her true immature self. She wanted me to do all the work because "I'm a hot chick and your a geek so you should worship me." it wasn't those exact words but it was basically what she said and summed up her mentality quite nicely. This ended with me giving in, pretending to do all the work ( in reality I went home and played Quake II ) and then purposely showing up in class without the project giving us both an F for the assignment ( I had an A+ in the class at the time anyways so I didn't give a shit ). Was it a bit immature of me to do that ? Yes, but the look on her face was priceless. I wouldn't have done it again any differently. If her parents/boyfriend wouldn't teach her that the world didn't owe her anything for being "Pretty" then someone needed to do it.

The point is, this is a person who had had at least 40 different boyfriends despite only being a Junior. Most relationships lasting only 3 weeks ~ 2 months. And yet, with all that experience behind her she never figured out that there is more to being with someone then just being attractive. Experience only means something if you are capable of realizing that the one consistent link in all your failures is yourself, and learn something from it. Otherwise it doesn't matter if you go out with 1 or 1000 different people, a moron is still a moron.
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Old 2008-11-26, 07:30   Link #1004
Mashda2k6
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thanks for the advices Mystique and BOOKGLUTTON. The nostalgia theory makes sense
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Old 2008-11-26, 23:10   Link #1005
Cut-Tongue
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post

Cat A: Women I would not do. ( about 25% of the female population near my age )
Cat B: Women I would do. ( the remaining 75% )
Hahaha, awesome. I'm the same way.
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Old 2008-11-27, 04:14   Link #1006
harmonious
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
Not sure what you're getting at there, as basically my argument against your view is that kids and marriage are not anchors for relationships anymore.
When I mentioned single mothers, I'm talking about a good majority of teenage mums (hell even mums in their early 20's) - 1 night, contraception failed and accidental pregnancy occurs and suddenly the fathers are no where to be seen. They skedaddle.
Tell me how kids are an anchor when there are so many young single mothers? That's not to say their relationship wasn't serious (at least on one person's side)
Some men have admitted that they panic at the thought of the sudden responsibility and they feel they're too young, so they run.
You also say that it'd be good for marriage and children to happen earlier so it 'cements' the relationship, again if an individual isn't happy or feels too stressed, what's going to stop them from leaving the relationship?
What's gonna stop them from cheating?
I am saying that these single mothers are having sex and getting pregnant without being in a serious relationship. Yes, doing that risks having the father skedaddle. First you have to have a serious relationship for marriage and children to be an anchor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
Kids and marriage are ties, but they do not ensure a happy relationship between the adults and they do not secure a couple's total devotion to each other.
If the people are unhappy, those factors become burdens, the adults’ personalities become bitter or negative and kids grow up listening to arguments time and time again.
How is that better? How do domestic situations like that benefit anyone?
I wouldn't mind hearing your opinion on that.
Very often cases of:
'we stayed together because of the kids. We gave it one more try. We thought having a baby would make things better' is often heard, but if the relationship between the adults is damaged, broken or lost, no other element will suddenly and magically make them more devoted to each other than a couple who are merely boyfriend and girlfriend for many years.
(And before I get a bunch of guys getting all defensive, do take into account that within debates, examples most times are not the be all and end all of things).
Here's another case for you in a non-western sense.
In Japan, many middle aged women are divorcing their husbands. They have been faithful wives and dutiful mothers, the kids have grown and left and they realise they have no ties to their husbands anymore. While the relationship was cemented, the devotion between the coupled died.
Where does that leave them?
This article is old, but the situation is still the same now.
BBC article on Japan divorce rates
Naturally, the couple needs to get to know each other. That doesn't mean hopping in the sack, or moving in. The idea of dating and boyfriends and girlfriends are modern social constructions. Modern social constructions which are poisonous with expectations. It is best to return to courtship and respect for oneself and one's partner. Even if that means one doesn't hop in the sack with their partner prior to to marriage. It isn't just a religious argument that premarital sex is somehow bad, but it psychologically diminishes its significance which removes one of the anchors in a relationship.

If say two people were virgins prior to marriage and before marriage they courted for however long. Then on the day of their marriage, when they believe they are ready for a long term commitment, they lose their virginity with the intention of having a child. I guarantee that couple is far more likely to last their entire lives than a couple who doesn't get married, moves in together, with premarital sex, with no oaths or dedication.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
Is more or less what I said and what you quoted me on, I said that kids and marriage no longer hold the weight they used to 50 years ago, thus they are not anchors for a couple being devoted to each other.
I am talking in a Western sense, but from your sentence just there (and as I was thinking to myself last night) you're probably giving your opinion from a non-western sense, if you don't mind telling me where you were born and raised then I can see better where you're coming from with your belief
It isn't that children and marriage aren't anchors. It is that the weight that society and their liberal view towards relationships is too much for either to hold them down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
To call it a disease isn't quite right. I'm born in a western society where my parents were born and raised in a diff society, thus I’ve grown up bi-cultural in a way. (Home and school were like two diff worlds) I can see the advantages and flaws of both.
While you may look down upon the liberal sense of Western societies, I look down and the same aspects (hence I said I was jaded and mentioned the divorce rates), but I appreciate it too at the same time, since the flipside of the other culture I was brought up in, doesn't have much respect for women or they are simply mothers rather than a wife.
I like the fact that I have the freedom and choice to pursue any career that I want or to be a full time mother if I wanted to and devote myself to my family, but I like that fact that I have a choice and the society that I was raised in offers more choice for women legally and financially than many other countries.
While men still hold most of the top positions in most companies, I sincerely appreciate that how far women have come in that aspect. Naturally there are bad sides to feminism (ladettes, lack of etiquette, lack of basic home skills, rise of female violence, etc)
But it's definitely not all bad and certainly not a disease.
Freedom is great. The problem isn't the freedom, but the morals of the society.

As for freedom for women to join the work force, great for them. The problem is the outside social pressure for them to work instead of becoming a homemaker. Feminism as they have called it didn't just come with liberty, but massive social change, pressure, and expectations.

I pity women in modern society for what has essentially been a hard press push to get women to choose work over family. To the benefit of big business, I might add. Working is one of the most stressful things in life and one of the least satisfying, especially when you don't have a family to work for. I think most mothers of the previous generation would say homemaking is hard work, but satisfying. I think Hollywood has glamorized the freedom of working for oneself and is responsible for a lot of malcontent people have in their relationship. A faux carrot is dangled in front of them every time they turn on the TV. It is the same with these mythical prince/princess true love relationships which were once apart of children tales, but have somehow become apart of every day entertainment. Homemakers are at home watching this poison every single day.

I would also point out that women joining the work force almost doubled the competition for jobs. It reduced the overall wages of everyone and is one of the key reasons why it takes two people working to support a family instead of just one. So women who would like to be a homemaker or have lots of children, are forced into the work force. This puts a major strain on the entire family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
Like I said, with the examples of unloved marriages (which you've conveniently not quoted me on)
Kids and marriages are no longer the anchors they used to be. The ties that may bind you to a relationship become burdens, they become traps. In most cases since the kids aren't at fault, adults will mutually divorce to keep the mess to a minimum or the mothers will take the kids and live separately.
Humans are selfish regardless, hence why I mentioned extra-marital affairs. Divorces in the west are also taking on a different nature lately. They're seen as the means to dissolve the relationship on a legal basis (and to dissolve the tie to each other) but that's usually cause there is no tie between the couple anymore.
So they may remain 'friends' or just on a neutral level with each other for the sake of the kids, but the devotion to each other is gone.
They aren't getting married because they wanna focus on each other, which usually means in a couple sense, their devotion to each other is there. While marriage may not take that sense away, kids sometimes can.
Both mum and dad work, mum sorts out kids in the morning, they go to school, dad has left the home.
Both come home, kids are fed and bathed. Mum cleans up, sorts out lunch and clothes for kids the next day.
Kids go to bed, the couple have a few hours if that of chill time but need to sleep.
Next day, same story, rinse and repeat.
A couple can get caught up with family life and work that they forget to maintain the relationship between each other and that's usually the cause for it to weaken and breakdown over many years. Naturally not everyone is the same, but it seems to be a common factor over here.
Each society differs, naturally my views and opinions are mainly based on the UK, thus I'm simply stating what I’ve seen and heard and noticed in the last few decades.
The media question the same things here, those over 60 often tell me the same things at work, but that just seems to be the way society is progressing.
Kids and marriage no long hold the weight to anchor a stable, happy relationship for many many years, for reasons I've stated in last two posts of mine.
Marriage and having kids may not be heavy enough for everything society has put on the couple, but you cannot discount their weight. I guarantee you non-married couples break up at much greater rate.

The illnesses of modern Western society have put a strain on the psyche of everyone. All negative factors are up: stress, loneliness, divorce. I am not saying marriage and having children is some miracle cure, but it can help in an already burdened society.

Last edited by harmonious; 2008-11-27 at 04:33.
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Old 2008-11-27, 08:50   Link #1007
Narona
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
This post has nothing to do with what you were saying, but your post reminded me of a bad experience I had one time back in my dreaded days of high school. I was assigned to work on a 2 person group project with one of the best looking girls ( probably top 5 ) in my school. All the other guys in class were stupidly jealous of me...but I couldn't care less. I didn't and still don't care about a girls looks that much. To me all women fall in to two categories:

Cat A: Women I would not do. ( about 25% of the female population near my age )
Cat B: Women I would do. ( the remaining 75% )

If you can't tell, I really don't put much weight on looks. Its either a pass or fail deal and after that its all personality. This is were the girl I was stuck with failed. Sure she was a nice person on the outside, but working with her was a nightmare...to make a long story short her kindness turned out to be a typical mask to hide her true immature self. She wanted me to do all the work because "I'm a hot chick and your a geek so you should worship me." it wasn't those exact words but it was basically what she said and summed up her mentality quite nicely. This ended with me giving in, pretending to do all the work ( in reality I went home and played Quake II ) and then purposely showing up in class without the project giving us both an F for the assignment ( I had an A+ in the class at the time anyways so I didn't give a shit ). Was it a bit immature of me to do that ? Yes, but the look on her face was priceless. I wouldn't have done it again any differently. If her parents/boyfriend wouldn't teach her that the world didn't owe her anything for being "Pretty" then someone needed to do it.

The point is, this is a person who had had at least 40 different boyfriends despite only being a Junior. Most relationships lasting only 3 weeks ~ 2 months. And yet, with all that experience behind her she never figured out that there is more to being with someone then just being attractive. Experience only means something if you are capable of realizing that the one consistent link in all your failures is yourself, and learn something from it. Otherwise it doesn't matter if you go out with 1 or 1000 different people, a moron is still a moron.
Yeah, it was , but the way you're telling it is funny (the part about Quake II ). Sorry, I laughed ^^""""

Well, that's true that some girls and boys like her exist ^^. They use their look as a tool. As if that would make them exceptional. Is it badto act like that? Some might say yes. You can be pleased by your body without having to use it as a mean to obtain what you desire.

On the opposite side, if a person goes out with a girl just because she is pretty (I mean, if he is just interested about her looks), i don't see how it could last long.

Anyway, all the pretty girls are not like her. Despite what some people think, some pretty girls also have a brain, or at least have different ways of living than what you saw with that girl.
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Old 2008-11-27, 12:39   Link #1008
Ledgem
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Join Date: Mar 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
I've never had a girlfriend before. To me it seems like dating is a waste of time, not something that I would want to spend lots of time on. Why? Because the kind of conversations that couples often have are generally very boring. I have a friend who is good at getting into relationships but they invariably end up lasting no more than a couple months at best and he's always sorta depressed for a while afterward.

If I want to get into a romantic relationship with a girl I'll get married. And even if I do that she would have to be a good friend as well, not just a girlfriend (in the sense that you get involved with her and leave after two months).
You might be thinking the way that I do. I didn't date when I was 16 (high school years) because I knew that the chances of finding "the one" in my small school were slim, I knew that psychological and personality development was still likely to undergo major changes (which would mess with compatibility), and I knew that university and after would likely place me in a different path than the girl I was dating. It's a rough calculation that doesn't follow romanticism, but it was how I felt.

And there's nothing wrong with that way of thinking, but there has to be a threshold. In high school it was rare to find a relationship that wasn't superficial. People spent time together, kissed, and hugged, but it seemed more that they were going through the motions than that they really knew and cared for what they were doing. In the university setting and beyond you'll still find those superficial relationships, but you can't let your fear of those get in your way.

Like you, I wanted to cut through the garbage and date seriously. I wasn't in it for the game aspect of it, I was in it to find a life partner, someone I could share everything with and have everything shared back with in turn; a friend like no other, someone I could completely depend on. How do you find someone like that? There are no external cues, and any notion of a sixth sense alerting you to her (or him) is either a mental delusion or a hormonal kick in the pants. No, you need to find this person through reasoning and feeling, which means you need to get out there and start learning about people on a more intimate level. This is how you'll discover not only whether those people are right for you or not, but also what true compatibility is for you. You may think you know yourself well enough to be able to choose what traits are desirable and undesirable, but you can't know for sure until you've actually gone through the experience.

In short, you can date with the expectation and devotion that the person will be with you for life - but you should get out there. If you find a highly compatible person on the first try, great! If not, then it's a learning experience. Just because some people date for the sake of dating and "being with someone" that they really don't care about doesn't mean that you and others like you (and me) can't date sincerely. And if you find someone superficial who's only with you for the sake of being with someone, then you know what to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harmonious View Post
I am saying that these single mothers are having sex and getting pregnant without being in a serious relationship. Yes, doing that risks having the father skedaddle. First you have to have a serious relationship for marriage and children to be an anchor.
You're overrating both marriage and children while underrating the aspect of "serious relationship." The problem is not promiscuity or sex out of wedlock. The problem is that people are not being devoted enough. It would be sheer ignorance to say that divorces only arise because people are being selfish. A truly dedicated relationship means that both parties are willing to compromise and sort out any problems that arise because they are dedicated to each other and the relationship between them. There seems to be a decay in people's willingness to work out relationship problems, and it seems to include the parent-child relationship (among others).

Quote:
Originally Posted by harmonious View Post
The idea of dating and boyfriends and girlfriends are modern social constructions. Modern social constructions which are poisonous with expectations. It is best to return to courtship and respect for oneself and one's partner. Even if that means one doesn't hop in the sack with their partner prior to to marriage. It isn't just a religious argument that premarital sex is somehow bad, but it psychologically diminishes its significance which removes one of the anchors in a relationship.
Dating is courtship. The problem is that not everyone dates because they're truly looking for a life partner. For some people it is socially unacceptable or socially poor to be single, and they feel the need to be in a relationship. It doesn't matter whether the relationship is meaningful or not, as long as they can claim someone as their girlfriend/boyfriend. Even in cultures where dating doesn't occur you will likely find similarities; where it is socially unacceptable to not be married, or to not have a child, or to not have given birth to a male. Superficialities in relationships and family settings are far from "modern social constructions."

Quote:
Originally Posted by harmonious View Post
If say two people were virgins prior to marriage and before marriage they courted for however long. Then on the day of their marriage, when they believe they are ready for a long term commitment, they lose their virginity with the intention of having a child. I guarantee that couple is far more likely to last their entire lives than a couple who doesn't get married, moves in together, with premarital sex, with no oaths or dedication.
Yeah, right. Here's a hypothetical situation for you: your two virgins-until-marriage start living happily, but then the wife hears from her girlfriends what great sex they're having and she realizes that her own husband is deficient. Now the wife's fidelity is vulnerable, because she's curious. She may even lack confidence in herself over a number of factors, simply because she's never experienced something else for herself.

I am not saying that the experience of premarital sex or massive dating is necessary. The point is that if someone wants to be a virgin until they're married, or if they really want to be in a life-long relationship, that's fine. It's perfectly possible to do those things without feeling remorseful or unconfident about yourself and your decision. However, you must make the decision yourself and know why you made it. If you're doing it just because it matches someone else's expectation then it's doomed to failure. I believe that the superficial dating and relationships that we've both cited are offshoots of that: people know that a boy and a girl (and soon, a boy and a boy or a girl and a girl) who harbor even slight attraction to one another can enter a relationship, and that society tends to fawn over relationships. Thus, without recognizing what they want from a relationship or what a relationship truly means, they enter into it. There's the disaster that you're citing, and it isn't limited to casual dating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harmonious View Post
As for freedom for women to join the work force, great for them. The problem is the outside social pressure for them to work instead of becoming a homemaker. Feminism as they have called it didn't just come with liberty, but massive social change, pressure, and expectations.

I pity women in modern society for what has essentially been a hard press push to get women to choose work over family. To the benefit of big business, I might add. Working is one of the most stressful things in life and one of the least satisfying, especially when you don't have a family to work for. I think most mothers of the previous generation would say homemaking is hard work, but satisfying. I think Hollywood has glamorized the freedom of working for oneself and is responsible for a lot of malcontent people have in their relationship. A faux carrot is dangled in front of them every time they turn on the TV. It is the same with these mythical prince/princess true love relationships which were once apart of children tales, but have somehow become apart of every day entertainment. Homemakers are at home watching this poison every single day.
This is your judgement. Not everyone is content to be a homemaker; not everyone finds work stressful. To me, the only thing that empowering women has changed is that they won't stand for garbage behavior from men as much. Why are divorce rates so high? Women aren't quite as willing to put up with poor behavior from a spouse. They know that they can make it on their own; an abusive or semi-abusive spouse is nothing more than a parasite on their life.

Perhaps many men either haven't caught on or were always doomed to be poor compromisers, negotiators, and diplomats. Even the most highly compatible couple needs diplomacy from both people involved to keep the relationship happy and healthy. I think you're incorrectly identifying the factor that is to blame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harmonious View Post
I would also point out that women joining the work force almost doubled the competition for jobs. It reduced the overall wages of everyone and is one of the key reasons why it takes two people working to support a family instead of just one. So women who would like to be a homemaker or have lots of children, are forced into the work force. This puts a major strain on the entire family.
Pardon me, but I believe that overall wages have been increasing. Very few women are "forced" to work. They aspire to more, both for themselves and for their children. They do not want to be reliant on a single man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harmonious View Post
The illnesses of modern Western society have put a strain on the psyche of everyone. All negative factors are up: stress, loneliness, divorce. I am not saying marriage and having children is some miracle cure, but it can help in an already burdened society.
"Illness of modern Western society" sums up your views nicely and reveals your bias. As I said, look through other societies and you'll find many similar pressures, although the exact factors may be different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona View Post
Anyway, all the pretty girls are not like her. Despite what some people think, some pretty girls also have a brain, or at least have different ways of living than what you saw with that girl.
Many pretty girls do have a brain and are intelligent. The trouble is that when they're very pretty they're treated differently by those around them. In many ways they're indoctrinated into a sub-society where pretty girls are the norm and not one of them is valued for their personality or their intelligence. If they ever accept that sort of scenario and become comfortable with it then they are changed by it and will conform to how those types of girls behave. Those are my observations, anyway. Exceptions exist, but I'd imagine that it's more due to the environment that the girl is in.
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Last edited by Ledgem; 2008-11-28 at 17:55. Reason: Spelling error
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Old 2008-11-27, 13:30   Link #1009
Segata
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: A big house near a big pool!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona View Post
Anyway, all the pretty girls are not like her. Despite what some people think, some pretty girls also have a brain, or at least have different ways of living than what you saw with that girl.
A few are even more bitchy that the one Edgewalker is talking about but hey I agree with you nevertheless cos I know what you mean and so I can confirm it.
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Old 2008-11-27, 13:42   Link #1010
Narona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Many pretty girls do have a brain and are intelligent. The trouble is that when they're very pretty they're treated differently by those around them. In many ways they're indoctrinated into a sub-society where pretty girls are the norm and not one of them is valued for their personality or their intelligence. If they ever accept that sort of scenario and become comfortable with it then they are changed by it and will conform to how those types of girls behave. Those are my observations, anyway. Exceptions exist, but I'd imagine that it's more due to the environment that the girl is in.
From what I can personally tell, about here where I live. Pretty girls who are nice, and live a normal life exist. The only problem is that more men try to pick them up. In some cases in can become really annoying. But in comparison to the % of pretty girls, at least half of them have a very normal life.

And about the other girls, it doesn't mean that the normal girls have all a normal life. In fact, I don't see a real difference between the normal and pretty girls. Some of them from both side have a normal life, and some of them have different life, in some VIP worlds for example.

I will be kinda harsh about the other half, but if they accept to become part of a sub-society without thinking about it and what could happen, then they are not so intelligent in my eyes, or they choose that because they really want to do be part of it. But since it's not my life, I never said anything to that kind of girls. I just avoid them.

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Originally Posted by Segata View Post
A few are even more bitchy that the one Edgewalker is talking about but hey I agree with you nevertheless cos I know what you mean and so I can confirm it.
Yeah, I guess you're joking because my post was not clear enough, but yeah you're right, girls more Evil than that alo exist.

And I didn't mean anything. I just wanted to warn the people to not generalize about the pretty girls.

Last edited by Narona; 2008-11-27 at 13:56.
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Old 2008-11-27, 14:36   Link #1011
Segata
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona View Post
Yeah, I guess you're joking because my post was not clear enough, but yeah you're right, girls more Evil than that alo exist.

And I didn't mean anything. I just wanted to warn the people to not generalize about the pretty girls.
On the contrary very nice girls exist too What a very obvious statement

Are you angry at me? I apologize if I said something not good
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Old 2008-11-27, 15:02   Link #1012
Edgewalker
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post

Many pretty girls do have a brain and are intelligent. The trouble is that when they're very pretty they're treated differently by those around them. In many ways they're indoctrinated into a sub-society where pretty girls are the norm and not one of them is valued for their personality or their intelligence. If they ever accept that sort of scenario and become comfortable with it then they are changed by it and will conform to how those types of girls behave. Those are my observations, anyway. Exceptions exist, but I'd imagine that it's more due to the environment that the girl is in.
I will add something I've learned to this: Intellect doesn't really matter much at all, its how you use your intellect that counts. A person who is a member of mensa and has an IQ over 150 but uses it to try and prove that bigfoot is an multidimensional being by circling out blobs on blurry photographs is no different or more useful then the next wackjob. ( And yes, there really is a mensa member that does that. )

The same thing carries over to the typical above average looking person ( this goes for both male and female ). A gorgeous looking individual has just as much a chance to be a genius as the next person, the problem comes when they start allowing the way the world treats them to get to their head. They start thinking the outside matters more, and thus they start using whats on the inside less. This is the real reason pretty people are stereotyped as being dumber then everyone else - its not so much that they are actually stupid, they just don't use their brains because they don't need to in order to have a place in society. Sad, but that's how it is. In the case that you do meet a person who is both pretty and appears to be smart, most of the time they will also have a very introverted personality to go with it.
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Old 2008-11-27, 15:47   Link #1013
Wing Zero
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Age: 34
I believe marriage is not as important as before and is more of a joke really. Due to the divorce rates, theres an increase in lone parent family's out there in society. I think the divorce rates increased due to secularization, people don't believe in religion no more to carry on with there marriage like in the past.

Oaths and vows are seen very pointless and the commitment is not valued anymore, as the values change then theres bound to be more divorces, then later on the male or female will marry someone else again to only get divorced. There is also an argument that the wedding is an enjoyable time, that both genders love to be in such a position that they which to repeat such an occasion. this leads me to conclude that true love is hard to find but there are people I know who have been with there loved ones for ages. This leads me to think that dating is almost the same but at a smaller level.
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Old 2008-11-27, 16:07   Link #1014
Xvoki
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Originally Posted by Wing Zero View Post
I believe marriage is not as important as before and is more of a joke really. Due to the divorce rates, theres an increase in lone parent family's out there in society. I think the divorce rates increased due to secularization, people don't believe in religion no more to carry on with there marriage like in the past.
My girlfriend and I are getting married next year, and neither of us are religious, its more of a symbolic thing. As for divorce, couples with children break up all the time, even non-married ones.
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Old 2009-02-27, 09:53   Link #1015
Scorrere
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Getting a girlfriend?

I'm 19, college freshman, and I've never had a girlfriend (or kissed a girl for that matter). I've never been on a date and only ever approached one girl (obviously rejected). I'm not great-looking but not bad looking either. Girls call me "cute" but I think they mean in a more "Awww I wanna hug him!" way rather than actually being physically attracted to me. I have a good sense of humor and I'm nice to everyone but I'm also not a pushover and will refuse to do certain things for people. I have many female friends at school, but I just can never seem to get beyond the friends stage. It seems like all the girls want to be my friend but not my girlfriend. How can I escalate things beyond this? I'm interested in several of my friends, but I really don't know what to do. Do I just ask them out? Luckily I'm not in "love" with any of them because I believe you can't love someone till you've had a romantic relationship for a long time so it's not like I'll be confessing my feelings to them in some dramatic way, I just want a date or two.
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Old 2009-02-27, 10:24   Link #1016
oompa loompa
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Originally Posted by Scorrere View Post
I'm 19, college freshman, and I've never had a girlfriend (or kissed a girl for that matter). I've never been on a date and only ever approached one girl (obviously rejected). I'm not great-looking but not bad looking either. Girls call me "cute" but I think they mean in a more "Awww I wanna hug him!" way rather than actually being physically attracted to me. I have a good sense of humor and I'm nice to everyone but I'm also not a pushover and will refuse to do certain things for people. I have many female friends at school, but I just can never seem to get beyond the friends stage. It seems like all the girls want to be my friend but not my girlfriend. How can I escalate things beyond this? I'm interested in several of my friends, but I really don't know what to do. Do I just ask them out? Luckily I'm not in "love" with any of them because I believe you can't love someone till you've had a romantic relationship for a long time so it's not like I'll be confessing my feelings to them in some dramatic way, I just want a date or two.
sounds like myself. simple advice? dont force it, it doesnt seem like thats your personality.. i mean dont avoid things, but relax, it will happen when it happens - tke your oppurtunities as they come, rather than trying to make your own - some people can do that, i'm not one of them.. still, its all worked just fine for me relationship wise , so dont worry

Last edited by oompa loompa; 2009-02-27 at 11:50.
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Old 2009-02-27, 11:39   Link #1017
windstar!~
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Don't worry mate, I was just the same as you - it all worked out in the end.
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Old 2009-02-27, 12:10   Link #1018
hakisak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorrere View Post
I'm 19, college freshman, and I've never had a girlfriend (or kissed a girl for that matter). I've never been on a date and only ever approached one girl (obviously rejected). I'm not great-looking but not bad looking either. Girls call me "cute" but I think they mean in a more "Awww I wanna hug him!" way rather than actually being physically attracted to me. I have a good sense of humor and I'm nice to everyone but I'm also not a pushover and will refuse to do certain things for people. I have many female friends at school, but I just can never seem to get beyond the friends stage. It seems like all the girls want to be my friend but not my girlfriend. How can I escalate things beyond this? I'm interested in several of my friends, but I really don't know what to do. Do I just ask them out? Luckily I'm not in "love" with any of them because I believe you can't love someone till you've had a romantic relationship for a long time so it's not like I'll be confessing my feelings to them in some dramatic way, I just want a date or two.
It might be you. You may be picking the same type of girls. Maybe you need to re-evaluate yourself.

You sound like you are nice guy, but a little bit detached. Don't concentrate on love....

Yes ask them out! What have you to lose?

ADVICE...(General) *I posted somewhere else and I don't feel like editing.

Since you are not sure ask her out casually. It doesn't necessarily have to be a date
Just say are you busy on [/insert day of choice and time] ? Wait for an answer and then take it from there. I know you don't want to ruin a friendship but it's a chance you have to take. Unrequited feelings can also ruin a friendship. So you might as well go for it. I know it's easier said than done. So just ask her as friend. If she accepts go on date/outing. If it goes well ask her again, and then continue on that route until she either figures it out, things progress naturally, or you get the nerve to tell her why. (Although if you keep asking her out. She should figure it out)

If she seeks you out, talks to you a lot, and makes frequent eye-contact with you. Or averts her eyes every time you look at her.<--that means she's looking at you. You are more than halfway there. (Don't worry if she talks about other guys right now. She may just be saying that to gauge your reaction. Girls do that some times. If she does it once she is certain of your feelings. Then it's not a good sign)

Don't rush because not all relationships happen in an instant.

P.S...try asking for her phone number first. If she gives you the number and actually answers your calls. You are on your way. ^_^



Some guys get stuck in the friend zone. Let me think on it. I never thought about how not to get stuck in it. I can tell you, its you...
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Old 2009-02-27, 13:10   Link #1019
Scorrere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hakisak View Post
You sound like you are nice guy, but a little bit detached. Don't concentrate on love....
I'm not sure what you mean by a bit detached? I'm not concentrating on love... like I said, I feel like you can't feel that unless you have an intimate relationship for awhile.

About phone numbers, I already have most of them! Everyone gives out their number to anyone here. Plus I see them probably more than 10 times a day (remember, I live with these people in a dorm though some are outside of my dorm and live in other dorms) so not many people use their phone unless that person's not in their room.
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Old 2009-02-27, 13:13   Link #1020
hakisak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorrere View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by a bit detached? I'm not concentrating on love... like I said, I feel like you can't feel that unless you have an intimate relationship for awhile.
Exactly! Even if we are not looking for love. We don't want to waste time with a guy who feels this way. You might be sending..."I can't feel anything for you, unless I sleep with you..for a awhile" waves in full force...

In a nutshell, thats what you are saying...

(Its all in the delivery)
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