US Elections 2012 Part I: The Primaries/Caucus

[ganbaru]

Ryan's path to Romney's No. 2 was steeped in secrecy
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...87919120120812

Edit: Mitt Romney Would Pay 0.82 Percent in Taxes Under Paul Ryan's Plan
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...s-plan/261027/
Of course, it wouldn't apply to what he manage to hide outside the US.

[Ithekro]

In having a talk with my father I'm piecing together some of the conservative reasoning for not wanting to vote for Obama.

He is dead set on the idea that if Obama get four more years the country is doomed.
Socialism being the big bad thing. When I asked why, he said because every country it is in has failed. I pointed out pretty much every European country and Japan,and he could point to a failure of some kind, or owning any success that country had for whatever period of time on the US recontructions of them following the Second World War. He is unwilling to give up any freedom no matter what benefit it might provide because there is always a downside to losing freedom.

He seeing their high tax rates as a serious failure. He sees their health plans as a massive failure based on long waiting period. He considers the Obama health care plan to be detrimental to freedom as their is no way to no be part of it (He don't need to pay health care because he did so already before retiring and is a Veteran so he uses the VA hospitals due to his service for the country).

We didn't get anymore into it, but it seems that both sides (Republican and Democrat) think that Ryan as VP makes their canditate a sure win. Both can't be right.

My father would love if we have the ability to vote "None of the Above" as he don't think much of Romney, but abolutely detests Obama. He will not even say the man's name.

My father is not a Republican by the way. I believe he is an American Independant, which is also a conservative party, but not the GOP.


H eis worried about voter fraud this election. He's been hearing that their are foreign interests that have control over some of the newer voting systems and have them programmed with the votes already done. I mentioned the other one of basically scaring off voters. The "poll tax" like programs "If they are requiring a second voter ID other than the State ID" is wrong. But it is supposedly federal law to have at least some form of legal ID by the time you are voting age. This is either a State ID or a Diver's License.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Sounds like your father bought into the idea of USA supremacy. As in, the country is great by default. Every other nation that is great is only great because of America's help, and everyone else's failures are because they are not the same as America. And that the only reason America isn't great right now is because the person running it is incompetent.

I know why he thinks so. Because this is what he is brought up to believe. Some things are just ingrained in one's childhood. It's hard for him to believe otherwise now. But this is how America is capable of deciding the country doesn't need to learn from other nations despite evidence to the contrary.

Seriously, to blindly decide everything will be fine if you just follow the path of founding fathers is a rather specific brand of faith. A desire to wind back the clock.

[Sugetsu]

^ Great commend and analysis. It makes sense to me that the idea of American supremacy is a prevailing ideal that has made many of its citizens resistant to change.

[Ithekro]

He would probably content that it is because of the changes in the last few decades that has caused the failing of the United States. Changing to become something we are not, when staying fast to what we are would keep us strong. Sounds very much like what you might hear in the 1950s and 1960s.

The idea of "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" seems to come to mind. I'm under the impression he thinks of Congress as being in the "fix it until it breaks" mindset. Both sides mind you, but his distrust of the Democrats is very long. Probably starting with Johnson, though it might go all the way back to FDR. He had no love of Carter for "giving away the canal" and hated Clinton, particularly the draft dogger part, as my father served in Vietnam. Hates Obama even more so. With Clinton he was able to make humor at him from time to time. Obama earns mostly spite.

He didn't particularly like Reagan or the Bush's. With the later Bush he didn't care for the Patriot Act, but did support the retribution against the Taiban and the hunt for Osama. Iraqi was more a "well why didn't we finish that years ago" stance. I'm pretty sure he'd be in the "glass them all" territory just so we wouldn't have to deal with it anymore. Supports Israel only based on the respect of Israel's victories in 1948, 1967, and 1973. 6 against 1 with the one winning earns respect from ex-military types. Holy land business he could care less.

He does not want the United States to be the World Police. He's more of the isolationist type.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Sugetsu

^ Great commend and analysis. It makes sense to me that the idea of American supremacy is a prevailing ideal that has made many of its citizens resistant to change.

Romney tap into this a lot. That's why early on, when he has no policies whatsoever, his campaign involves him singing "America the Beautiful".

Funny that, there is a Chinese equivalent. Bo Xilai, that disgraced Chinese leader, spends a lot of his time talking about bringing back Maoism. Telling poor people life was so much better back then in a non-existent great past.

The other Chinese leaders know what old China was like and want no part of it. So away he goes.

[Xacual]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

He does not want the United States to be the World Police. He's more of the isolationist type.

This is the kind of thing I can't accept anymore. No country can be "isolationist" anymore, it's just not happening. Especially not a huge economy like the US. I've heard a lot of older types bring up the idea too.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Socialism being the big bad thing. When I asked why, he said because every country it is in has failed. I pointed out pretty much every European country and Japan,and he could point to a failure of some kind, or owning any success that country had for whatever period of time on the US recontructions of them following the Second World War.

No country is perfect. There are flaws with the various European and Asian countries, but the fact is that they're ahead of us in many areas of society (education, healthcare). I don't really know how people can wave those facts away - maybe just outright dismiss the data?

Originally Posted by Ithekro

He is unwilling to give up any freedom no matter what benefit it might provide because there is always a downside to losing freedom.

While I agree with his sentiment, it's misguided. The real outrage should have occurred with the Patriot Act. Now people (not just your father) are facing the prospect of higher taxes, and suddenly they're bawling about freedom.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

He seeing their high tax rates as a serious failure.

You get what you pay for.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

He sees their health plans as a massive failure based on long waiting period.

There's a bit of untruth that goes on regarding the waiting periods. You may find this article to be interesting. Key quote:

The take-away message is that both the United States and Canada do pretty poorly, compared to most other industrialized countries, on how long patients have to wait to get a regular appointment with a primary care physician or after-hours care, but the U.S. does better than most on having shorter wait times for diagnostic procedures, elective surgery, and specialty care. Each of these countries, though, with the exception of the United States, has universal health insurance coverage, funded and regulated in large part by the government, so it doesn’t seem likely that government-subsidized health care, in itself, is the sole factor in determining how long patients are stuck in The Waiting Place. Other factors, like the numbers of primary care physicians and specialists in each country, may be more important.

I can't speak for other countries, but I can tell you that we're experiencing a shortage of primary care physicians in the USA. Most physicians and physicians-in-training go on to become specialists, because that's where the money and respect are. (It also seems to me that it would be easier, but I'm still in the early stages of training.) Additionally, the medical environment in the USA is now structured around litigation, which has led to the practice of "defensive medicine." This is the practice of ordering tests even if they're probably unnecessary, with the rationale being that in court you can defend yourself with the test results and against negligence or incompetence charges. It doesn't surprise me that our system is thus faster when it comes to processing tests (because we probably have a higher volume than other countries), but at the same time, it makes our system costlier.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

He considers the Obama health care plan to be detrimental to freedom as their is no way to no be part of it (He don't need to pay health care because he did so already before retiring and is a Veteran so he uses the VA hospitals due to his service for the country).

It seems hypocritical for someone using the VA for their healthcare to be against government healthcare, but his particular issue with "Obamacare" isn't hypocritical. However, it is misguided. No insurance system can survive if it's paying out more than it's taking in. Our healthcare costs are on the rise for two, possibly three, reasons:

1) Litigious society (malpractice costs, costs of supporting defensive medicine)
2) Unhealthy society (obesity epidemic)
3) Doctor shortage (although I'm not sure that this would drive up costs)

Health insurance in particular relies on people who are healthy to pay into it. If people only started on health insurance when they were old and/or sick, the costs would need to be increased and the payout would need to be decreased. It would not be sustainable otherwise. It should come as no surprise that many people avoid purchasing health insurance, either because they are young and healthy or because they feel that they can't afford it and decide to take their chances.

While it's perfectly understandable that there's discontent over being forced to pay into something, people need to understand that it's for the better in the long run. People are not being responsible about their health or their health insurance, and the system is suffering as a result. And this is not a needless expense: nearly every single person in this country will rely on the healthcare system at some point in their lives. Forcing people to pay into it is for the good of the system (and thereby the people).

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Sounds like your father bought into the idea of USA supremacy. As in, the country is great by default. Every other nation that is great is only great because of America's help, and everyone else's failures are because they are not the same as America. And that the only reason America isn't great right now is because the person running it is incompetent.

I know why he thinks so. Because this is what he is brought up to believe. Some things are just ingrained in one's childhood. It's hard for him to believe otherwise now. But this is how America is capable of deciding the country doesn't need to learn from other nations despite evidence to the contrary.

Based on what I've read, other countries have people who feel similarly (ultranationalistic sentiments). It's not necessarily a thought that needs to be drilled into someone when they're a child, either. The difference - according to what I've read - is that in other countries, those ultranationalists who feel that their country is superior tend to be a fringe minority. They're much more common in America by comparison, and arguably comprise part of the Republican party.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Our healthcare costs are on the rise for two, possibly three, reasons:

1) Litigious society (malpractice costs, costs of supporting defensive medicine)
2) Unhealthy society (obesity epidemic)
3) Doctor shortage (although I'm not sure that this would drive up costs)

I'd also add up-coding by medical practitioners and a strong profit-motive in uncompetitive markets by health insurers to the cost increases.

[Netto Azure]

Originally Posted by Bri

I'd also add up-coding by medical practitioners and a strong profit-motive in uncompetitive markets by health insurers to the cost increases.

There's also the weird practice of pushing costs to different parts of the Public-Private patchwork of the Healthcare payment system.

It's truly cost inefficient to have a thousand differing private for-profit insurance plans (The Germans have Non-Profit competing ones), the Public VA system (Something like the British NHS), Medicare/Medicaid (Canada or Taiwan's Universal Health Insurance), the Native American System and of course charity care provided by hospitals to the uninsured (Like any other developing country who leaves people to be "individually responsible"/Fend for themselves). The US is kinda unique in the case that it has versions of various countries Healthcare payment systems, but not one.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Bri

I'd also add up-coding by medical practitioners

part of that comes from he high cost of becoming a doctor. 10 years and $100k+ in student loans. To bring down health care cost, cost of training new doctors has to go down.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

It seems hypocritical for someone using the VA for their healthcare to be against government healthcare, but his particular issue with "Obamacare" isn't hypocritical. However, it is misguided. No insurance system can survive if it's paying out more than it's taking in. Our healthcare costs are on the rise for two, possibly three, reasons:

1) Litigious society (malpractice costs, costs of supporting defensive medicine)
2) Unhealthy society (obesity epidemic)
3) Doctor shortage (although I'm not sure that this would drive up costs)

Health insurance in particular relies on people who are healthy to pay into it. If people only started on health insurance when they were old and/or sick, the costs would need to be increased and the payout would need to be decreased. It would not be sustainable otherwise. It should come as no surprise that many people avoid purchasing health insurance, either because they are young and healthy or because they feel that they can't afford it and decide to take their chances.

Drugs are also overpriced in the US, in part because the drug industry tries to sideline generic drugs, driving up the cost of drugs to insurance providers.

Based on what I've read, other countries have people who feel similarly (ultranationalistic sentiments). It's not necessarily a thought that needs to be drilled into someone when they're a child, either. The difference - according to what I've read - is that in other countries, those ultranationalists who feel that their country is superior tend to be a fringe minority. They're much more common in America by comparison, and arguably comprise part of the Republican party.

I think the bigger issue in the US is willful ignorance of the world at large. You're lucky if Americans have any knowledge of Canada, let alone the world outside of North America.

People who are ignorant are far more likely to have jingoistic nationalist views, because they easily can have preconceived notions that a greater degree of international awareness would cause them to dismiss.

And when you watch Cable News, this ignorance is not very surprising.

[FDW]

Well, judging from the Veep pick, things have become interesting in the Chinese sense.

[Zetsubo]

Imagine if the US auto industry had respected the Japanese Auto industry of the 1980's and changed their methods early ?

That industry is to me an almost carbon copy analog (sp) to the Govt. of the US.

Imagine if Harly Davidson had not scoffed at the Honda Cub motor cycle ?

Can we say under estimate a nation because they are "insignificant" ?

Imagine if the US had learned of the good aspects ofother goverments and implemented
them instead of being resistant to learning from the outside world ?

Which reminds me...

Until recently I have never seen so many big Made in the USA or Made with PRIDE in the USA tags on products oversease. The Koreans, Chinese and Japanese don't put huge stickers with flags on their export products... but the USA does....

Why is this done ?

What does this say ?

The fundamental problems of the USA did not start with Obama... and they will not end with Romney/Obama.

These problems have been brewing for the better part of 50 years.

The USA hurts now because varios aspects of the entire system was never maintained and updated over the last half decade.

Health Care implementation and reform should have never been a problem to begin with.

It should have been dealt with from the baby boom era right after the second world war.

Im just ranting in coherent blurts... dont mind me... carry on.

[Urzu 7]

Romney campaign running anti-Obama ads with false info regarding Obama and welfare.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...6pLid%3D191835

The Romney campaign whines and complains when the Obama campaign runs false and misleading ads, but it is just fine when they do it? Right.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Urzu 7

The Romney campaign whines and complains when the Obama campaign runs false and misleading ads, but it is just fine when they do it? Right.

Of course, they would have noting else to say otherwise.
Edit: First woman to moderate presidential debate in 20 years
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...87C0V520120813

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Zetsubo

Until recently I have never seen so many big Made in the USA or Made with PRIDE in the USA tags on products oversease. The Koreans, Chinese and Japanese don't put huge stickers with flags on their export products... but the USA does....

I can't speak for the rest of the world, but this is done a lot with Irish products in Ireland, though mostly for agricultural stuff and meat.

I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with people liking to "buy local".

[Ithekro]

In the United States, such product labeling is being done more to attract business with Americans. There is a select amount of people that would rather not support China (as they are seen as either an economic or military rival, if not enemy) and will go for the more expensive American made item, if they can find it. With the larger label they stick out better in the stores.

For example, this year some of the Ace Hardware stores in Oregan stopped carrying American made Craftman tool sets and only had Chinese made sets. However in California they still had some American made sets avalible. The product is likely exactly the same thing, the only difference might be a digit on the product number and the large print "Made in USA" with a flag behind it in the corner. The ones that say "Made in China" are in a smaller print and are on the Craftsman red bacground.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

There is a select amount of people that would rather not support China (as they are seen as either an economic or military rival, if not enemy) and will go for the more expensive American made item, if they can find it.

There's also the whole "dangerous chemicals and copious amounts of lead" thing that's been going on with Chinese items since... forever.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

In the United States, such product labeling is being done more to attract business with Americans. There is a select amount of people that would rather not support China (as they are seen as either an economic or military rival, if not enemy) and will go for the more expensive American made item, if they can find it. With the larger label they stick out better in the stores.

For example, this year some of the Ace Hardware stores in Oregan stopped carrying American made Craftman tool sets and only had Chinese made sets. However in California they still had some American made sets avalible. The product is likely exactly the same thing, the only difference might be a digit on the product number and the large print "Made in USA" with a flag behind it in the corner. The ones that say "Made in China" are in a smaller print and are on the Craftsman red bacground.

Yeah, I don't see anything wrong with it either, we do it in Australia too. This is no different from buying local fruit to support the farmers, not meant to be a political stance.