Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Bogart]

Originally Posted by monster

A settlement is more desirable if you assume that the other side wants the same thing. However, if you think that the other side is influenced by a faction that wants nothing less than your death, you'd be more willing to respond to a potentially growing threat in kind.

If that is obviously the case, then why does the moderate faction exist? Surely ZAFT are developing their own weapons?

It's a total joke that Zala is accusing the Alliance of escalating the war, when ZAFT were the ones that considered a space colony home to over a million people to be acceptable as collateral damage. "Escalation" generally refers to the destructive magnitude of a conflict, something that the G-Weapons hardly represent since they seem to be merely more advanced versions of ZAFT's own mecha.

Plant might be in danger of losing the war with their introduction, but you can hardly fault someone for trying to build a better rifle to help win a war.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Bogart

I'm a little confused.

Flay is being told to apologize to Kira for outing him a Coordinator, when he was the one that admitted to being the pilot. She backed up his assertions. She also only did so after Sai got hurt from the situation escalating. Why are people calling her a bitch in the comments section?

First rule of watching Gundam through Youtube: Pay no attention to the commentary. It is full of bashing, hating, inane prattle, and other brain cell-killing phenomenon.

As for Flay's apology, she needs to apologize because Kira is nevertheless a Coordinator in a base full of Natural soldiers, and in the current times, simply being a Coordinator could get him killed. Yes, he admitted to being the pilot, but the fact remains that she inadvertently put him in danger just by outing him.

Originally Posted by Bogart

What exactly do they need water for? If it was for hygiene or drinking, surely it could be recycled? If it's to power the ship for fusion reactors, it wouldn't really take much considering how much power (or lack thereof) the ship seems to use.

The Archangel was completely undersupplied since its launch. There was likely very little water onboard, regardless of recycling--since people consume it, little by little it'd get used up. They needed to bring it up to full capacity as soon as they could.

Originally Posted by Bogart

Kira's killed before, but I guess the sheer magnitude and senselessly of the space colony graveyard got to him? Along with everything else that's happened, like at Heliopolis and with Athrun?

Basically. Doesn't help that the people who were killed by Kira were soldiers, who knew the danger of being a soldier. The people they saw at Junius Seven were all civilians murdered by the Earth Forces. To compound the trauma, for Kira they're also his people, fellow Coordinators, whom he's now fighting against.

[Bogart]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

As for Flay's apology, she needs to apologize because Kira is nevertheless a Coordinator in a base full of Natural soldiers, and in the current times, simply being a Coordinator could get him killed. Yes, he admitted to being the pilot, but the fact remains that she inadvertently put him in danger just by outing him.

Seemed like he and everyone else was in danger from the bull-headed way the Eurasian commander was acting.

The Archangel was completely undersupplied since its launch. There was likely very little water onboard, regardless of recycling--since people consume it, little by little it'd get used up. They needed to bring it up to full capacity as soon as they could.

Looked like they were taking hundreds of tons of the stuff. Archangel's passenger list couldn't possible be more than 100 people at the time. A person couldn't possibly need that much, even if they didn't have recycling systems.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Bogart

Seemed like he and everyone else was in danger from the bull-headed way the Eurasian commander was acting.

They were, but Kira was the one who could've gotten shot right then and there because of Flay's actions.

Originally Posted by Bogart

Looked like they were taking hundreds of tons of the stuff. Archangel's passenger list couldn't possible be more than 100 people at the time. A person couldn't possibly need that much, even if they didn't have recycling systems.

You've also got emergency situations to consider, like if the Archangel ended up stranded dead in space because its engines got blown up or malfunctioned due to damage to a previous fight, and no one would know where they were. Better safe than sorry.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Bogart

If that is obviously the case, then why does the moderate faction exist? Surely ZAFT are developing their own weapons?

Different factions exist because people have different priorities and values.

It's a total joke that Zala is accusing the Alliance of escalating the war, when ZAFT were the ones that considered a space colony home to over a million people to be acceptable as collateral damage. "Escalation" generally refers to the destructive magnitude of a conflict, something that the G-Weapons hardly represent since they seem to be merely more advanced versions of ZAFT's own mecha.

Notice that this space colony was destroyed by the actions of a couple of these mobile suits. They are powerful weapons even without considering the G-Weapons.

Plant might be in danger of losing the war with their introduction, but you can hardly fault someone for trying to build a better rifle to help win a war.

It's not about faulting someone. It's about reacting to the potential threats these new weapons represent.

[S.Freedom]

Looks can be deceiving honestly. As even after they arrive on earth and join up with Desert Dawn, they still needed/wanted water if I recall correctly.

So even with recycling and no civilian population to worry about. They still went out of their way to get their hands on more water.

[Bogart]

Lacus seems much smaller than the other girls in the series, even though she's taller than them. It must be because of her hair, outfit, and disarming demeanor. She almost acted as though she didn't quite understand where she was or what kind of situation she was in. She didn't lie, actually she was very upfront about who she and her father was to the point of being silly.

On the other hand, when she confronted Flay, she wasn't deterred at all by her attitude and insisted that there was a difference between someone in ZAFT and someone that wasn't.

Speaking of Flay, earlier I defended her, but here she was quite unpleasant. It's one thing to imagine that they picked up a genetically modified super soldier. It's quite another to meet Lacus in person, see that she is not the least bit military, and express blatant disgust of what she is. How can she really not think badly of Kira if making physical contact with a Coordinator bothered her?

Again, if she just had a hard time reconciling the difference between someone that was from ZAFT and someone that was a Coordinator, that'd be one thing, but that clearly wasn't the case.

So apparently Coordinators are genetically modified. Personally, I dislike transhumanism. Not just because of the obvious pitfalls, like creating a race of sociopathic supermen, but because I think it denigrates what it means to be human.

Humans are a total package of contradictions, of strengths and weaknesses intermingling, beginning where one ends. Something regarded as being an unwanted characteristic is inherently short-sighted, since a weakness might in the right situation actually be a strength, even if it's difficult to imagine.

Obvious example would be is it better to be bigger or smaller? Wouldn't it be just awful if someone decided that only being tall was worthwhile and the human race lost the trait of being small? A healthy gene-pool is a diverse and inherently adaptable gene-pool.

What's more, it undervalues the things we've achieved despite our limitations. A genetic short-cut should be considered as being wholly unneeded in the scheme of things, since as long as there is a will, there is a way.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Bogart

On the other hand, when she confronted Flay, she wasn't deterred at all by her attitude and insisted that there was a difference between someone in ZAFT and someone that wasn't.

Speaking of Flay, earlier I defended her, but here she was quite unpleasant. It's one thing to imagine that they picked up a genetically modified super soldier. It's quite another to meet Lacus in person, see that she is not the least bit military, and express blatant disgust of what she is. How can she really not think badly of Kira if making physical contact with a Coordinator bothered her?

Again, if she just had a hard time reconciling the difference between someone that was from ZAFT and someone that was a Coordinator, that'd be one thing, but that clearly wasn't the case.

By now, it should become pretty apparent that Flay has a lot of issues concerning the war. Most of it is ignorance and Blue Cosmos-influenced bias. Kira was a classmate whose identity as a Coordinator was only recently learned; Lacus is an important Coordinator whose identity as such was known from the get-go. So Kira has the... benefit... of his identity as a Coordinator coming second to Flay's having known him as just another classmate and Sai's friend. For the most part, though, Flay's reaction to Lacus is based mostly out of fear of the superior capabilities of Coordinators and what they could do, and she's lashing out thoughtlessly because of that fear.

And all of that will change in the coming episodes. It will not be very pretty, though try not to let this current view of her influence you too much--she will go through a lot of development, both negative and positive, over the course of the series, but the negative will come first.

Originally Posted by Bogart

So apparently Coordinators are genetically modified. Personally, I dislike transhumanism. Not just because of the obvious pitfalls, like creating a race of sociopathic supermen, but because I think it denigrates what it means to be human.

Humans are a total package of contradictions, of strengths and weaknesses intermingling, beginning where one ends. Something regarded as being an unwanted characteristic is inherently short-sighted, since a weakness might in the right situation actually be a strength, even if it's difficult to imagine.

Obvious example would be is it better to be bigger or smaller? Wouldn't it be just awful if someone decided that only being tall was worthwhile and the human race lost the trait of being small? A healthy gene-pool is a diverse and inherently adaptable gene-pool.

What's more, it undervalues the things we've achieved despite our limitations. A genetic short-cut should be considered as being wholly unneeded in the scheme of things, since as long as there is a will, there is a way.

Ironically, you sound like a rather reasonable Blue Cosmos member here. :V

Rest assured, though, that the differences and similarities between Naturals and Coordinators will be explored throughout the rest of the show. An interesting tidbit that you've hit on is the genetic viability of Coordinators in the show. Fact of the matter is, Coordinators have currently bred themselves into a dead end. Genetic viability between third-generation Coordinators is dwindling, forcing the need of things like arranged marriages between Coordinators in the PLANTs based on their genetic compatibility (not a detail really explored in the show, unfortunately).

[Bogart]

So I guess it's obvious that Archangel was designed to eat GINNs for breakfast if Buster and Blitz could scarcely make a move on her, despite their greatly heightened defenses. It's very unfortunate the other Alliance ships didn't seem to have point defenses even half as good, despite flying in close formation.

I feel for Flay. She had the right idea, but she was too late. However, it's not Archangel's and Kira's fault. Kira especially tried his best under difficult circumstances, but between some bad luck and running out of time, there was nothing they could do.

Why was her dad even on the ship? Vice Minister of the Alliance? What does that mean?

Is Lacus a fairy or what? She has a way of popping up when people least expect. I'd call her coy, but she's too honest for that. She's not trying to be humorous, but she comes off as being silly. She watches people, but there's no intensity. Like she's looking right through them, but it doesn't even register that she's sizing them up. She's just there, it's very strange, and she has no discernible motive. Even though she cheered Kira up, it doesn't seem like she was trying to.

I think I've neglected Athrun. It seems like he's as conflicted about things as Kira. Possibly more so, but does he actually believe in what he's doing or is he just doing things because he believes he has to do something? He's clearly taken to the duty of a soldier, but Kira's made him doubt himself or maybe realize the doubts he's had, especially concerning his father. Athrun wasn't comfortable with the lies told about the Strike's pilot after all.

[kuroihikari2]

It's not quite apparently distinguishable yet, but Lacus' demeanor around Kira is different from her demeanor around others.


Oh, and Ramius being a great captain is part of why the Archangel is so great. She's probably within the top 3 ship captains in the series. Her archetype was so popular that they did it again in a later Gundam series.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by kuroihikari2

Oh, and Ramius being a great captain is part of why the Archangel is so great. She's probably within the top 3 ship captains in the series. Her archetype was so popular that they did it again in a later Gundam series.

You have to be talking about Millais from Gundam AGE, because there's no way Murrue and Sumeragi are that similar.

[Bogart]

Episode 11

Mwu, Murrue, and Natelie have good synergy. The faux trial for Kira's court martial really hammered out the differences in their personalities. Mwu being jocular, Natelie being serious and by-the-book, and Murrue calmly maintaining the integrity of the trial, despite the foregone conclusion and intent behind it. Really drove home the seriousness of the situation, while building trust between them and Kira through the use of humor.

It's nice to see some adults worth a damn.

Yzak's awfully confident about taking the Archangel down. Last time they couldn't do anything, while also having Athrun along with them. I suppose he's right to think that he can beat the Strike, since he really gave Kira a thrashing the last time around, but it took so long that Strike ran out of power. Here he has a strict time-limit.

Flay's being manipulative, and she's surprisingly good at it. I wonder what she's after? At any rate, she doesn't seem to care at all about the ship being attacked anymore.

Archangel gave Nicole a really hard time, though he seemed to have slipped in after the sensor array was destroyed and the enemy ship provided a serious distraction.

Kira put up a much more valiant effort against Yzak this time around. And then he got some kind of mid-fight power up and utterly flew circles around him. Weird thing that.

I guess they're in the clear now since they made it to the moon.

[Rising Dragon]

Actually, it's quite the opposite for Flay and her concerns about the attacks on the Archangel. You'll see in the coming episodes.

[kaito-kid]

Speaking of Seed mode, that is the only reason why this is called Gundam SEED isn't it? And they don't even really talk about it, except mentioning it once or twice..


@Bogart:
Are you watching the remaster or the original? If you are watching the original you should skip the recap episodes. Except maybe episode 14, because it sort of explains a couple of things about the Coordinators.

[monster]

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

Speaking of Seed mode

I'm not even sure whether that's the official name or just fan consensus.

[kaito-kid]

I can't remember.. "SEED" is something that is established in the show right?
'Seed mode' is something that we came up with 10 years ago..

[Bogart]

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

@Bogart:
Are you watching the remaster or the original? If you are watching the original you should skip the recap episodes. Except maybe episode 14, because it sort of explains a couple of things about the Coordinators.

I'm watching it on youtube. Remaster I guess. Am I missing something by not seeing the original?

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Bogart

I'm watching it on youtube. Remaster I guess. Am I missing something by not seeing the original?

A certain scene little less than halfway into the show got changed in how it was depicted, which to many altered the tone of the original event, and we still argue about which is better on occasion.

Other than that, a bunch of meaningless recap clip shows that you're better off not wasting your time on.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Bogart

If that is obviously the case, then why does the moderate faction exist? Surely ZAFT are developing their own weapons?

It's a total joke that Zala is accusing the Alliance of escalating the war, when ZAFT were the ones that considered a space colony home to over a million people to be acceptable as collateral damage. "Escalation" generally refers to the destructive magnitude of a conflict, something that the G-Weapons hardly represent since they seem to be merely more advanced versions of ZAFT's own mecha.

Plant might be in danger of losing the war with their introduction, but you can hardly fault someone for trying to build a better rifle to help win a war.

The first thing the EA did when the war started was to NUKE a civilian agricultural colony. This was because they are unofficially led by a group of massive extremists called Blue Cosmos who think coordinators are abomination and that the only way to end the war is with the death of every last one. It doesn't matter if it is military or civilian.

The Moderate faction just wants to avoid tragedies like that again should the war continue to drag on.

Originally Posted by Bogart

I'm a little confused.

Flay is being told to apologize to Kira for outing him a Coordinator, when he was the one that admitted to being the pilot. She backed up his assertions. She also only did so after Sai got hurt from the situation escalating. Why are people calling her a bitch in the comments section?

Fllay's motives are less than honorable there. She's not a member of Blue Cosmos (the group that ordered the nuking of one of the PLANTS) but she is sympathetic to their cause. At that point she hates and is afraid of coordinators. It also put Kira in a dangerous position since he is a coordinator in a military full of naturals who look down on coordinators.

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

I can't remember.. "SEED" is something that is established in the show right?
'Seed mode' is something that we came up with 10 years ago..

SEED was mentioned in the show and it's abilities discussed by Erica Simmons in one of the clip episodes and Andrew Waltfeld (who just asked if Kira was a berserker rather than specifically talking about the SEED)

[Bogart]

Episode 12

Creuze is a bit two-faced. He clearly has little regard for human life, but he acted like he took Lacus's words to heart.

The admiral seems like a cool guy, though I don't understand what concessions he's talking about. He seems to be worried about ZAFT advancing their tech and the losses on the battlefield for his troops, which is why he supported the G-Program, but I fail to see how this is something other than common sense. Is the EA misusing it's resources and personnel for some reason?

Flay gave a heart felt speech and joined the military. I could see her wanting to get some revenge against ZAFT or that she really wants to bring the war to an end. Still, she acted really weird in the previous episode, like she was lying, especially to Kira.

Seriously though, there's just no end to positive role models for Kira to look to. If it were just one person, I'd say they were as good as dead, since being a mentor is a serious death flag lol