US Elections 2008

[james0246]

Originally Posted by mg1942

Palin's antics just cost her 2012/2016. Is GOP secretly grooming Jindal for 2012/16?


^{Jindal = fiscal conservative version of Obama}

Gov. Bobby Jindal is a bit worse than a fiscally conservative Obama. He is, quite honestly, exactly the same as Gov. Sarah Palin, only a little more extreme on some issues (he advocates chemical castration for sexual criminals , that is just too far even for the worst crime in the land (side note: I consider rape to be the worst crime). That being said, I have heard him speak (on CNN, etc) and he is very similar in his rhetorical approach to Obama. It would definitely be an interesting campaign and Competition.

[Synria_]

His tax plans are simple, increase taxes on those making over X amount (this amount changes each day apparently), and his words "Redistribution of Wealth," sum it up for me. I do not support gay rights, it should not encouraged. I won't bother going into the discussion on gay rights. Doesn't matter what McCain says, I hear Obama speak and I interpret, maybe calling it socialism was too extreme, but his ideas are definitely getting close to dangerous territory.

[Cherudim Arche]

Originally Posted by Synria_

How about creating more jobs and making people work for their money. Unless you follow Obama, raise taxes and just hand money to people. I work to live the lifestyle I have and anyone that saves money would get pissed if the government took their money to give it to people on welfare (any more than they already are).

Taxes are going to be raised regardless of the candidates to investing, debt or otherwise. Why do you assume that it will go according to plan if Obama does do it anyway?

[Goshin]

but as many have said, all taxes are redistribution of wealth. so the answer comes down to to you wan to give your money to people on welfare who don't even deserve it, or the big cooperation who don't even need it.



wow James over 250k what do you do...?

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Synria_

His tax plans are simple, increase taxes on those making over X amount (this amount changes each day apparently), and his words "Redistribution of Wealth," sum it up for me. I do not support gay rights, it should not encouraged. I won't bother going into the discussion on gay rights. Doesn't matter what McCain says, I hear Obama speak and I interpret, maybe calling it socialism was too extreme, but his ideas are definitely getting close to dangerous territory.

Okay... that sounds a bit less like a talking point and more like thinking

I sincerely doubt McCain is going to be able to reduce taxes on anyone. He says he is going to reduce spending... well, the part completely out of control is the Iraq War (~1 trillion dollars) and the recent $700B thrown to the administration to provide welfare to the large corporate entities that created this mess. Our national infrastructure has been neglected to the point of failure -- billions and billions to fix (but that does create jobs). Our military is just about toast in terms of inventory and over-extension; more billions to repair. Reducing taxes under what is essentially a state of war is fundamentally stupid no matter what form of government - so McCain actually needs to redact the insane tax cuts given out after 9/11. Basically the last eight years have nearly bankrupted this nation and no matter who gets elected, taxes will probably have to be adjusted on someone - the top 1% have been getting quite a free ride for 8 years, eh?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Synria_

His tax plans are simple, increase taxes on those making over X amount (this amount changes each day apparently), and his words "Redistribution of Wealth," sum it up for me. I do not support gay rights, it should not encouraged. I won't bother going into the discussion on gay rights. Doesn't matter what McCain says, I hear Obama speak and I interpret, maybe calling it socialism was too extreme, but his ideas are definitely getting close to dangerous territory.

Obama is raising income taxes (for some) 4%...just 4%. That being said, those that are not effected by this specific tax increase, will still be paying taxes. There is not a single person in this country, who is a citizen, and has a job, that does not pay taxes (for instance, the capital gains tax will undoubtedly be raised).

Originally Posted by Goshin

wow James over 250k what do you do...?

What haven't I done . Honestly, the majority of it comes from a Trust fund, with the rest made from a variety of secondary jobs (I have a few listed under my occupation section of my BIO (though it has been awhile since I did any of the jobs listed). I am honestly unsure if I will pay anything extra under Obama's tax plan, and I will not know until I actually sit down and talk with the family accountant (yes I have had a silver spoon placed in my mouth sometime in the past ).

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Mystique

It would be bittersweet if he does win, which as someone noted to me, wouldn't that make the congress, house of reps and white house entirely democratic, meaning laws would pass like honey without any resisitance?
(Could that be a bad thing for the country too?)

someone needs to read up on American history.

That is not going to happen.

[Vexx]

Also keep in mind that even should McCain get elected, there's a very high probability he'll have to contend with a Congress that can over-ride his veto. At the very least, he'll have to "pull a Clinton" and govern to the center or even center-left to work with Congress (as Bill Clinton had to switch gears in 1994 when the House swung Republican for the first time in 40 years).

[yezhanquan]

Well, it's early morning of election day now in the States, if I'm not mistaken. When do the polling stations open?

[Vexx]

Still a bit early (only 2am EST on East Coast). Polls usually open at 8am.

[mg1942]

Don't trust exit polls.

Wait until absentee/early vote ballots are all counted.

[yezhanquan]

I guess most of America would vote when I'm in bed. My university lecturer on American political hisotry has a lecture tomorrow morning, and she told us NOT to surf the web for results during the lesson.

[james0246]

Well, we have heard about Dixville Notch, now it is time to hear the results from Hart's Location .

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/1..._n_140790.html

The town of Hart's Location reported 17 votes for Obama, 10 for McCain and two for write-in Ron Paul.

So far, the election stands at Obama: 32 votes; McCain: 16. Obama already twice as many votes .

(I'm sorry, I find the N.H. elections hilarious for no specific reason.)

[Vexx]

I won't believe any early calls or exit polls or celebrate until someone concedes or the votes are certified.

[yezhanquan]

Hold the fireworks or tears, at least for the next 20 hours, if not 24.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Hold the fireworks or tears, at least for the next 20 hours, if not 24.

...And John Mccain wins Pensylvania and the election by a gap of just 100 votes! The Supreme Court decided for no more recounts! God bless America!

[Daggett]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Socialism is better represented by most of the western countries of Europe, our allies.

No, definitely no. I don't think there is any western european country, where most of the people would call their own country "socialist". Even most Social Democratic parties don't call themself "socialists" anymore. Although their governments are (or at least think they are) more "people-oriented", most Europeans don't call this system "Socialism" but "social market economy". And this system was not only formed by (former) socialist governments, but also centrist, christian-democratic and, what many people don't want to hear, fascist governments, but without racism and totalitarian ideology.

I agree that "socialism" is a ambiguous term, but I really think most people over being would laugh at being called "socialists".

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by mg1942

Don't trust exit polls.

There was a great writeup on this during the primaries. The key is that there are actually multiple sets of exit polling taken and released (and is actually embargoed) during the day. It is very likely the GOP will try and hint at the morning set because it will be very favorable to McCain in the key states. The late day exit polling (when it is all accumulated, tabulated, etc) is typically very accurate. (People were extrapolating in the primaries and were usually on target as to blowout/close/what have you.)

What's going to make things really interesting is with all the early voting in some states, there are probably going to be places where the exit polls favor McCain when they shouldn't. (However, a lot of the data is already known on early voters so it will be easy to extrapolate.)

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Daggett

I agree that "socialism" is a ambiguous term, but I really think most people over being would laugh at being called "socialists".

I agree with you (especially about it actually being a social market economy with a structured safety-net) .... but if you're European be prepared to laugh a lot because half of America is totally unaware how far to the right our political system has become since the 1980s. They're so far right it all looks fuzzy and alike over to the left.

[Solace]

Obama is a liberal through and through. He's nothing like a Socialist. In fact, it's rather laughable that McCain and other Republicans would even suggest it, because they're insulting a man Obama pulls a lot of influence from - FDR, one of our greatest Presidents.

If you want to see what kind of things a liberal supports, here's a list from Wikipedia (summed up better than I could do):

• The Constitution of the United States, unalienable rights, human rights, civil liberties, equal justice, equality of opportunity, and liberty under law;
• Public leadership in guaranteeing a strong social safety net, including support for Medicare, unemployment benefits, health insurance, and the preservation of Social Security as well as programs to assist low-income working American families, such as food stamps;
• Non-interference in private matters of conscience and belief, by the strong support of the fundamental American principle of separation of church and state;
• A progressive tax system;
• The right to health care; public leadership in the creation of a health care system of universal coverage supported by taxes (though agreement on how this will be done is not universal);
• Civil rights, including laws against discrimination based on gender, race, age, religion, sexual orientation, or disability;
• A spirit of international cooperation and strong alliances, including through NATO and the United Nations; a reluctance to use military force in a rash and hasty manner, before credible alternatives are exhausted;
• Public leadership in protecting the environment from pollution and ensuring the conservation of resources;
• Public leadership in guaranteeing free and high-quality public education and free or low-cost public transportation;
• Public leadership in the prevention, suppression, and punishment of abusive business practices, including through OSHA, child labor laws, anti-trust laws, and minimum wage laws;
• Public leadership in ensuring the immediate cessation of unlawful immigration permanently; public leadership in ensuring that unlawful immigrants presently in the United States are required to pay all unpaid taxes, required to pay a substantial fine or perform community service, required to learn English, and required to become citizens.
• Strong support of workers' rights to organize labor unions, and to bargain collectively with their employer, over their wages, benefits, and terms and conditions of employment;
• Strong support for women's rights, reproductive rights, comprehensive sex education, free or low-cost contraception, and free or low-cost reproductive health care; many liberals also include a woman's right to choose to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, though not all liberals share consensus on abortion, which is an issue of conscience. Those who do, believe that, in the words of Bill Clinton, "abortion should be safe, legal, and rare."

Not a comprehensive list, of course, but you can see many of the Obama campaigns key points in this.

Liberals, for the most part, do not believe in letting the government run everything, nor do they want to "redistribute the wealth". What they do care for, is making sure that equal opportunity and rights exist for everyone. As per our Declaration of Independance:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

And today, the people of this country will let the world know how they feel about the last eight years of terrible leadership.