Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

The problem is that Destiny was relatively popular in Japan... It's in the US where it is reviled. It is also in the US where SRW wasn't released...

Most of the fans who love Shinn and hate Kira and Lacus didn't PLAY SRW and only heard about it.

One of the things Destiny did WELL is Shinn. His motivations are believable and relatable, and his fall from grace is relatively reasonable. I would have very much liked to have seen the final few episodes if the writer hadn't gotten sick...

You mean the movie that was supposed to come out?

[Destined_Fate]

Movie? Isn't that long since been canned?

Even if they wanted to do one after the HD Remaster what would it even be about and hw would they assemble the old team? After all, if Kira, Athrun, Cagalli, Lacus, Mu, Shinn, and Lunamaria aren't in it than fans would rage.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Kamille was an ass(especially early on. He makes Shinn look like a pacifist in comparison), but he was a kind ass and he was justified for being an ass to certain characters later on.

Dude, read your own post that I quoted:

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Hell, Kamille was still kind of an ass near the end of Zeta too.

Kamille stopped being an ass near the end of Zeta. That is a fact that accepted by most people who suffer through Zeta. Unless you count being hostile to his enemies (like Titans & Axis) as "being an ass" or you simply hate Camille and want Shinn to look better than him.

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

The thing is that believable amounts to stupidity to fans of the series because Kira is not only unbelievable but he's actually right about everything. Or so the show portrays it as such.

DOES the show protray it as such?

Kira doubts his actions through 90% of the show. Most of his presence on the show is him going "Who is right and who is wrong?" And the Destiny Plan is never portrayed as "WRONG." Durandal is a villain because of his means, but the Destiny Plan is portrayed simply as something they disagreed with.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

So why would they care about Shinn believable if it means he's portrayed as stupid/wrong compared to the unbelievable who are portrayed as smart/right all the time?

You don't understand why a character acting believably is important to a story?

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

SRW releasing here wouldn't really change the views against Kira all that much.

some have postulated that people only like Shinn because of his appearance in SRW. I disagree. Most of the people who like Shinn so much they won't shut up about how right he is live in America and DIDN'T play SRW...

Originally Posted by Kurohane

You mean the movie that was supposed to come out?

Her illness affected the show itself. Episodes were pulled and changed after it had been announced. A lot of the pacing in the last few episodes of the show was affected by her illness.

I wonder how things would have played out without all the rushing.

[Destined_Fate]

Hey, I like Kamille a great deal and his antics were hilarious. His bromance with Shinn in SRW titles is amazing, it even brings Fa and Lunamaria to have a sismance between each other as well as their Love interests are always hanging out together.

-

But his actions always proved right because he was the only good guy faction and everyone else were just working with the villains even if they didn't know it.

The Destiny Plan is portrayed as wrong through Kira who amounts it to Durandal trying to steal everyone's dreams.

It's important but fans would rather have the unbelievable if it means the character turns out right in the end.

Shinn was pretty popular even before SRW. It's why the Kira vs Shinn debates were always so heated in the past when the series was ongoing. Hell, Shinn/Lunamaria is one of the most popular couplings in the entire series. Helps that the VA's later married which put them up on the spotlight again.

Than there's fan demand for Shinn and Lunamaria to get a "Combo Attack" in a game. Banpresto responded by giving them one in UX and fans are fully expecting an HD combo attack between them in SRW Z3.

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

But his actions always proved right because he was the only good guy faction and everyone else were just working with the villains even if they didn't know it.

Being right about something doesn't mean being right about EVERYTHING.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

The Destiny Plan is portrayed as wrong through Kira

Kira isn't the show.

Yes, Kira sides on the with Freedom over Security on the debate. But the SHOW never specifies which side is "right".

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

It's important but fans would rather have the unbelievable if it means the character turns out right in the end.

People only care if the character is right when they LIKE the character. When they don't, they want him to be wrong...

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Shinn was pretty popular even before SRW.

That's... Helping my argument.

[Destined_Fate]

That's the thing. They liked Kira so him being right is awesome for them. While Shinn being shown as wrong is good for them but bad for Shinn fans.

We're having an argument? But I like Shinn even before SRW.

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

That's the thing. They liked Kira so him being right is awesome for them. While Shinn being shown as wrong is good for them but bad for Shinn fans.

And if the character isn't likeable, then why do so many people care that he was so wrong? Why are so many fans so angry that Kira is right if not because they like Shinn?

And yes, we are having an argument. Has the word grown to mean something else nowadays?

[Washu-Chan]

Here we go again...

I read somewhere that Fukuda's plan for Shinn was for him to lose everything, except Lunamaria. He also said something about Kira and Lacus "straying from the path of justice", and Durandal "not being in the right" as well.

It's also rumored that the translators may or may not have misquoted Fukuda's interviews to fit their agenda.

[Mad Pierrot]

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

Here we go again...

I read somewhere that Fukuda's plan for Shinn was for him to lose everything, except Lunamaria. He also said something about Kira and Lacus "straying from the path of justice", and Durandal "not being in the right" as well.

It's also rumored that the translators may or may not have misquoted Fukuda's interviews to fit their agenda.

The interview was poorly translated Wasshuchan. The translators don't even know the magazine's correct name. Even if that was right, then the show's message was really weird.

I never bought the fact that Kira got more screentime due to bias cos nobody managed to prove it. It's annoying since I always like reading the comments from the people behind series I watch and half of the fandom doesn't know if the director's comments are legit. I only found one legit Fukuda interview and he pretty much says something like "Shinn will go through development but it will be very different from Kira's in SEED." If somebody ever cites the writers I would appreciate getting proof it was real and not one of those fanmade.

[Deadpool2000]

I too enjoy seeing the behind the scenes thoughts of creators but in the end of the day... The author is dead.

[Aquaman OS]

According to that interview Kira and Lacus stayed from justice, Durandal was a sociopath with no faith in humanity, and had been planning for the Destiny Plan since before Seed even ended, Shinn was deluding himself that he was doing any good or protecting anyone and he was the one that needed to be protected, and Shinn was lost because he never met the one person who could set him on the right path (so obviously, Durandal wasn't "the right path"). It also said the Destiny Plan would never really work, as people given lesser jobs would always rebel against it.

Make sense of that. If that interview isn't incorrectly translated or just outright wrong (and it could be as I believe it also refutes other stuff Morosawa said, in an interview that turned out to be fake) then apparantly everyone was in the wrong in Destiny, and nobody was right.

And if the interview is partially right but they made mistakes translating, the interview is by far mostly anti Durandal and Shinn, with only one line saying Kira and Lacus were in the wrong, vs entire paragraphs for Durandal's side.

It also claims there was no rewrite, and Shinn was supposed to have been defeated in the end from the start. And to be honest there are hints that is true. Kira and Lacus were obviously supposed to be important from the start, as they are in the OP ED and preview of the show, and it was also well foreshadowed that Kira and Shinn would have problems with one another (them fighting in the first OP, and Freedom having an Excalibur through it in the first ED suggesting that episode 34 was in the plan from the start)

If you take the show at face value, obviously it thinks Kira and Lacus are in the right, as they get the heroic focus vs the evil music and shadowy dark throne room of Durandal (and to be honest the show made Durandal look like he was up to something from episode one). Bandai seems to agree with this, as most model kit manuals and official show sumarries are pro Kira side, and Astray revealed more information to vindicate Kira's side (like it looking like Durandal started the war in the first place)

[Lelouch24]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

They had about 20 episodes give or take (not counting Kira's brief cameos or the two episodes that focused on them in Orb before they vanished again for awhile) to make Shinn likable before Kira started making regular apperances again. They failed at that.

All he did for the first 10 episodes on his downtime was bitch at the very well liked characters from the previous show and tell them how he still hates them and their country despite them being the saviors of humanity in Seed. Yeah that's really gonna endear him to the audience there. And he only really got worse, with his not getting along with Athrun, making several poor decisions in the Stella debacle and ignoring basically all of it because Durandal let him off. Etc.

Kira and Lacus weren't the problem. It was them making Shinn an unlikable jackass and expecting the audience to patiently wait for them to maybe possibly improve him.

I've seen very few people that actually like Shinn on his own merits. It's typically either because they hate Kira and Lacus and therefore anyone who didn't like them or opposed them in series won points simply for doing that. Or they hated the whole "peace and war is bad" theme Seed turned into and just wanted a guy that hated killed his enemies and didn't get all preachy about it.

Shinn's popularity went up a little after Destiny....but it wasn't because of Shinn, it was because Kenichi Suzumura got more popular thanks to Kamen Rider Den-O, Gintama, and the Final Fantasy 7 spinoffs. Again, not really liking Shinn the character.

Yes, how dare the kid who saw his ENTIRE family horrifically killed right in front of him, possibly by a shot from Kira himself, be a little angry and bitter. Sorry, but that complaint doesn't hold water to me. The rest of your post falls into the whole "torpedoing his character development" thing, which is what I was complaining about.

[Deadpool2000]

See? Likable and relatable. Watch this:

LeLouch, was Shinn justified in "killing" Athrun and Meyrin?

[Mad Pierrot]

I wonder did the "justice" thing mean. A magazine couldn't be using such a black and white idea. Heck, just the idea of using justice as an argument to prove your point is weird. Maybe it could mean that the two character did something like they believed wasn't correct.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by Lelouch24

Yes, how dare the kid who saw his ENTIRE family horrifically killed right in front of him, possibly by a shot from Kira himself, be a little angry and bitter.

There's a difference between being angry and bitter, and being a jackass to anyone and everyone. Was it ok for him to not be all smiles and niceness. Yes. Was it ok for him to practically stalk Cagalli and drive to tears repeatedly throughout the first 10 episodes? Hell no. Cagalli was a very popular character and doing this to her was of course going to piss off the audience, especially considering she didn't do anything wrong, nor were Shinn's families death in any way her fault.

And it goes on from there. He's rude to Talia and Arthur, his superiors mind you, not exactly a nice guy to his group of friends, and Athrun, who he pretty much asked to come back, he suddenly wants nothing to do with and is a jerk to him too.

Nor does Shinn look like he's gonna improve. If anything it looks like he never will. He looks like he'll make progress occasionally, but the next ep he's back to being an ass again (see him sort of making the beginnings of a friendship with Athrun at Junius Seven but then suddenly acting like he did when he first met him when Athrun actually joins Minerva. And then again sort of starting the beginnings of a friendship with him after the Loenghrin battle, only for it to be ignored again the next ep)

People have only so much patience, and they aren't gonna follow a 50 episode show about a character they can't stand. Unless of course, they were holding out for Kira to reappear.

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Shinn's popularity went up a little after Destiny....but it wasn't because of Shinn, it was because Kenichi Suzumura got more popular thanks to Kamen Rider Den-O, Gintama, and the Final Fantasy 7 spinoffs. Again, not really liking Shinn the character.

Suzumura did say that the SRW incarnation of Shinn was "Shinn done right". He was quoted as saying in his interview in one of the SRW-Z interviews that he was given more input on his character's portrayal (e.g., what Shinn's motivations were), compared to the anime.

[Lagnes]

As hatable as Shinn was, he has an interesting/unique character. First he's a victim of the prior war, he's forgotten how to trust and has this hate everyone and thing/avenger type attitude (completely different from the typical sides of the war: antinatural, anticoordinator, pacifist, or terrorist types). Yeah he completely disrespects everyone he comes into contact with besides the chairman, he's imature, and whines about everything but at the end of the day he's intrinsically good with a few temper tantrums. I feel like Fukuda tried to show us this by somewhat making the Freedom a little bit dark in GSD, for example the poses it would take after: Destroying the savior, flying toward the Destroy Gundam (the flashback Stella saw of the Freedom before she completely lost it and Kira killed her). Granted I think the freedom looked badass in those poses but it's a bit uncharacteristic of the mobile suit and what it's suppose to represent. Of course since Shinn cannot be objective, Stella's death was unjustified and another excuse for his rage to grow. The only real flaw I see with his character is the fact that, like so many people mentioned, there is no real development shown and we had to follow him for so many episodes which was just to boring to watch over and over; it would have been nice if they had introduced another main character to break the monotony.

[Deadpool2000]

Shinn doesn't grow? Show starts with Shinn having a massive problem with authority. He disrespects Durandal's guest in front of his face, he ignores Athrun and rushes into a base to save civilians, he knocks out ZAFT soldiers to save Stella's life... Shinn puts his personal opinions over his orders.

By the end of the show, he "kills" Athrun and Meyrin, backs up Durandal after he uses Requiem and is willing to kill Lunamaria to follow his orders. That is a MASSIVE shift in his character.

[Lagnes]

Shinn does change to become more complacent towards Durandal however there is not enough development shown or reason given for this aside from simple brain washing.