[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Ithekro]

Maybe Kuwadorian was a zoo.

Unless it is a farm.

[izmosmolnar]

Originally Posted by Marion

I'd die if more animal demons show up |D Srsly.

Well I wouldn't bet money on other demons, but I wouldn't be so surprised if there is going to be a Satoko Witch sometimes somewhere. (The Witch of Infinite Traps *inserts admiralackbar.jpg again* )

If you think about it, not counting Satoko, every human Higurashi Loli who ever received significant screentime is a witch in Umineko: Rika, Loli Takano (fair enough the latter only had a few episodes).

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by izmosmolnar

Well I wouldn't bet money on other demons, but I wouldn't be so surprised if there is going to be a Satoko Witch sometimes somewhere. (The Witch of Infinite Traps *inserts admiralackbar.jpg again* )

If you think about it, not counting Satoko, every Higurashi Loli who ever received significant screentime is a witch in Umineko: Rika, Loli Takano (fair enough the latter only had a few episodes).

Well... there's Hanyuu too, even though she's really seven hundred years old...

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Marion

Yeah, it could be possible. A lot of people think Eva became delusional in EP 3 and believed she was Beatrice.

As far as Eva goes I think I'm becoming one of the growing people who think that we're being mislead to believe she's the culprit in EP 3. I have a theory. Looking back at EP 3 every time some kind of murder outside the guest house occurred Eva was in her room sleeping. It could be possible she dreamed she killed them in bizarre ways, especially considering the only wounds that actually match what we see are the 2nd twilight deaths and Krauss + Natsuhi's deaths. Of course in the latter one Eva wasn't sleeping.

Somewhat silly theory: Fight Club syndrome. A certain character gains a split personality, and when that person falls asleep, they "become Beatrice" (sleepwalking). When awake, they don't remember their actions.

In EP1, Natsuhi becomes Beatrice.
In EP2, Rosa becomes Beatrice.
In EP3, Eva becomes Beatrice.
In EP4, Battler becomes Beatrice.

Crazier extension: Beatrice is a ghost (having died previously as recounted by Rosa), and possesses one person at random, leading to the above.

[izmosmolnar]

Originally Posted by Maho Momo

Well... there's Hanyuu too, even though she's really seven hundred years old...

True, but I think Hannyuu is supposed to be already more than a witch, being a God and all.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by izmosmolnar

True, but I think Hannyuu is supposed to be already more than a witch, being a God and all.

Even so, she's still not in Umineko... unfortunately. >.>

[Ithekro]

So far anyway.

[hodil]

So far anyway.

Hahaha! How many of us believe hanyuu would appear so far?

Bernkastel tosses in a piece called Hanyuu...

Well... i think thats the only way for Piece Battler to recount everything that has happened to actually stop and solve everything in the game...

Since in higurashi, Rika did not remember the events too, unless Hanyuu reminded her... hmm...

Edit: izmosmolnar your avatar is truuuly interesting...

[izmosmolnar]

As I said, I wouldn't expect Hanyuu to appear (I mean strictly speaking she's probably with Bernkastel, and following her all the time anyway, right?), but if all the human lolis have a witch role in Umineko, then there's bound to be a Satoko Witch sometimes somewhere .

Originally Posted by hodil

Edit: izmosmolnar your avatar is truuuly interesting...

Thank you, I hope it won't spoil anyone and assume certain things basing it on said avatar .
Full picture by the way

[Christen]

Anybody think we'll get some news on Episode 5 by July? I swear July is going to be the month for me.

[Rias]

Most shops should start to have pre-order for ep5 in early July...that's when we'll start to see more news.

[cheesie]

In regards to the questions surrounding Battler, let me compile this all together as best as I could, gray being my little scribbled thoughts:

- Asumu and Kyrie both have the same pregnancy dates. Asumu safely gave birth to Ushiromiya Battler, while Kyrie suffered a miscarriage, and was driven by envy and despair for 12 years.

After those twelve years, 1980:

- Asumu had died, due to reasons not stated. Her time of death wasn't stated either, but it was evidently a very short while before Rudolf married (or at least announced his intentions to marry) Kyrie, who is carrying Ange by then.

- Because of this, meta-Battler had forsaken the family name, and went off to live with his grandparents.

Beatrice's Red Text

Beatrice : The crime I am now demanding that you remember is not something between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice.
Ushiromiya Battler committed a crime. (or sin)
From your crime, a person died.
Due to your crime, many humans died on this island. No one escaped, they all died.

- From what Beato implies, there was something that happened six years ago. Battler is unable to remember what he did back then, and the only recollection of that time was when he gave up the family name and left. Whatever the crime was, whether Battler is aware or not he was the cause, someone had died because of what he did. [I'm led to believe Asumu may be the person here, as it was never stated how she died, just that she died at that same year. This, or Ushiromiya Battler, but Beato seemed to have theorized this rather than state it as red.]

- Because of this, there were many people in the island who died. However, it was never explicitly stated when they died, just that they died as a result of the original crime. [What we all see now as the ten twilights...? ]

- Beato is visibly distressed, not due to the sin itself, but the fact that meta-Battler could not remember it.

- Meta-Battler is able to claim himself as Ushiromiya Battler, but he's unable to claim that he was born from Asumu. On the other hand, it was never explicitly stated that he was also Rudolf's son, and the only link he has with the Ushiromiya name is that he's able to successfully claim himself as Kinzo's grandson.

Appearance-wise, the other family members seems to treat him as they normally would. Unless there's a conspiracy going on with the entire family, then it's safe to say that meta-Battler looks identical to Ushiromiya Battler, which would give rise to the theory that they may have been twins, but disproved simply because meta-Battler is unable to claim he was Asumu's son. So we have two identical looking Battlers, but only one belonged to Asumu, and the other whose established link in the family lies in his title as Kinzo's genuine grandson. (It would support the theory that Kinzo created Battler the same way he created Beato's human shell, but currently, there's not much in the game that shows that.)

- An interesting note : This was the year when Maria turned three. Battler had supposedly last seen Maria when she was three years old. Providing that the family conference is the only time he's able to meet with the other families, and if he had never attended the family conference of 1980, then it's likely Battler hasn't met up with Maria at all. It would certainly explain why Maria isn't able to remember Battler, though you could certainly disregard that on the grounds that she was simply too young to remember. (It may or may not mean anything, but I'll store this away just in case.)

- Another note : Rudolf had known all along he was going to die, starting from Episode 1. (Rudolf knows more than he lets on. On another note, this could mean the twilights have been occurring even then. The start of the game doesn't necessarily imply the start of the twilights.)

ETA - Unsure: Before Beato was about to deny Battler, I know Lambda freaked out, but was Ange's reaction shown?

Did I get everything right so far? If there's anything wrong with what I interpreted, please feel free to correct me, as my memory of the game doesn't stretch that well.

[Ithekro]

Should come out at Comitket in August...officially anyway.

[Squirrellord]

Mwaha, I've figured it out.
ベアトリーチェ　= Beatrice
ベア= Bear
Bear = 熊
熊沢 = Kumasawa.

Therefore, Kumasawa is the killer!

[izmosmolnar]

Originally Posted by Squirrellord

Mwaha, I've figured it out.
ベアトリーチェ　= Beatrice
ベア= Bear
Bear = 熊
熊沢 = Kumasawa.

Therefore, Kumasawa is the killer!

Then I have to change my avatar soon, because it certainly tells the true then .
I always said that Kumasawa and her magical mackerels are the culprit.

[Rias]

Originally Posted by Squirrellord

Mwaha, I've figured it out.
ベアトリーチェ　= Beatrice
ベア= Bear
Bear = 熊
熊沢 = Kumasawa.

Therefore, Kumasawa is the killer!

That used to be one of the jokes on 2ch back in ep1-2...that クマトリーチェ/鯖トリーチェ was behind it all.

Of course, Ryukishi07 made that official in ep3 with 熊沢チエ at the staff roll...

[k//eternal]

Haha, "bear theory" was awesome. I've wondered if you could say the same for "goat" = Gohda?

[Jan-Poo]

- Meta-Battler is able to claim himself as Ushiromiya Battler, but he's unable to claim that he was born from Asumu. On the other hand, it was never explicitly stated that he was also Rudolf's son, and the only link he has with the Ushiromiya name is that he's able to successfully claim himself as Kinzo's grandson.

There is another connection. Ange is Battler's sister.
-Ange is my younger sister.
So Battler should be Rudolf's son or Kyrie's son... unless you want to mindfuck this even more and question even Ange's parents.

Appearance-wise, the other family members seems to treat him as they normally would. Unless there's a conspiracy going on with the entire family, then it's safe to say that meta-Battler looks identical to Ushiromiya Battler, which would give rise to the theory that they may have been twins, but disproved simply because meta-Battler is unable to claim he was Asumu's son. So we have two identical looking Battlers, but only one belonged to Asumu, and the other whose established link in the family lies in his title as Kinzo's genuine grandson. (It would support the theory that Kinzo created Battler the same way he created Beato's human shell, but currently, there's not much in the game that shows that.)

They are not necessarily identical, in Ep1 there are many comments regarding Battler and how much he has changed. Some even says that if they weren't told he was Battler they would never think about it.
This doesn't mean he's not the same Battler of 6 years before, it is totally possible for someone to undergo a drastic change in appearance from 12 to 18 years. However this also gives ground to the possibility he's not the same Battler.

The main problem is with the memories. Battler remembers practically everything about his family of 6 years before. If he's not the Battler of 6 years before how can he remember all that? Also, while everyone notices the physical difference, they all acknowledge that as for what concerns the personality he hasn't changed at all.


That apart the idea that Battler caused Asumu's death is quite sound.

[Valentine]

Spoiler for Long:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

There is also Eva-beato red truth:

-Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board!

Since we are sure that Genji, Kanon and Shannon do participate in episode3's game, then they must be human.

Actually, I was kind of wondering if the red text could be used differently by different people to some extent. Obviously something objectively true such as "You (Ushiromiya Battler) were not born from Ushiromiya Asumu." can't be messed with, but all the red truth does is ensure that you tell the truth. We've seen Beatrice at times careful to define in normal speech what certain words she says in red mean as well. If those words were defined differently, she might not necessarily have been able to repeat those exact same words in red. For instance "All six people died instantly." "By instant death, I mean that as soon as they were attacked they became incapable of action." If she defined instant death as "As soon as they were attacked, they were dead", she might not have been able to repeat the exact same thing in red.

In the same way, if her definition of people does not include furniture as people (and being something that she believes at all times rather than something strange like a definition for "dying instantly", she doesn't need to define it separately), saying "Shannon is not a person." would be telling the truth, whether it's objectively true or not. Eva doesn't much like the idea of George marrying a lowly servant, but she's never given me the impression that she doesn't even consider them human, so she should equally be able to say "Shannon is a person." Similarly, I might speculate that after Ange's talk with Battler, emphasising that Asumu was always a mother to him whether they're related by blood or not, that he might have been able to say "I am Ushiromiya Asumu's son." because she likely had him defining mother and son in such a way that it would have been true, despite that Beatrice could also say "You are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son.", based on blood ties.

To sum up, I suspect that certain red truths that turn on the definition of a particular word can be misleading if the one using the red truth is using that word differently than expected, not that Shannon, Kanon, Genji, and any other people who might also be furniture are actually not people.

This still doesn't get around Klashikari's objection though, since that one was by Beatrice herself, so I'll have to think about that one some more.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

A few weeks ago I was also wondering if dead people count as people. Actually that's an interesting question. Considering that someone is speculating that Kinzo's body is still on the island preserved somehow, you'd need to think that dead bodies do not count as people.

Don't we have to assume that Kinzo's body is on the island? Beatrice's red text said that the unidentifiable bodies in the first episode were who they were assumed to be, so the body in the furnace had to have been Kinzo's.

On another topic, I'm sure this has been suggested before, but the claim for the first twilight of the second episode that "Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands." has the obvious answer that any time Rosa opened the envelope after midnight would fit the red text, not just the next morning. My only problem with this interpretation is that I can't any longer see why Rosa would have thought of the envelope to lock up the chapel afterwards. Up until episode 4, I'd been assuming that the siblings got a message to come to the chapel, and finding it locked was what made Rosa think of the envelope, and how she obtained the key. Anyone have an explanation for this?

[Hareoic]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The main problem is with the memories. Battler remembers practically everything about his family of 6 years before. If he's not the Battler of 6 years before how can he remember all that? Also, while everyone notices the physical difference, they all acknowledge that as for what concerns the personality he hasn't changed at all.

If he's not the real Battler, he could have been coached into his role as a child by somebody from the family conference. By the time he grew up, he'd accepted what he'd been told as reality.

Or just some form of brainwashing in general where he believes he's somebody he's not due to external influence.

I'm just trying to figure out what the big twist is going to be.